>I am in support of catching the bad guys, but I do have a problem with throwing a good person behind bars and calling them a bad guy. - Dave Hamm< I couldn't agree more! Joan Lince -----Original Message----- From: Dave Hamm via GENEALOGY-DNA [mailto:genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com] Sent: Friday, November 30, 2018 10:20 AM To: genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com Cc: Dave Hamm Subject: [DNA] Re: Use of familial search by law enforcement Wjhonson, Well, this thread had been talking about a number of issues, one of which included lab "mixups." (Such as the lab mixups in New York, one of the more recent issues that had been mentioned.) Another issue was poor quality samples at the scene of the crime. For Chen Long-Qi, the DNA samples at the scene of the crime were mixed, and Y-DNA was used. He was convicted, and 5 years later, he took another test with more markers that exonerated him. We had also mentioned the filmmaker. If you just happen to be innocent, few people are the same after event like this. I think the main issue here was the use of public databases, such as GEDMatch. So, you see, if you had tested all of your relatives, and posted to GEDMatch, then you have already given the sample to law enforcement. (Because GEDMatch has seemed to escape our Constitutional rights.) Which means, your family will be the first that law enforcement looks at, simply because it is already there, and easy to access. (A bias toward selecting your relatives.) In the case of the Golden State Killer, my understanding is that the last archive sample of the crime scene DNA was fully sequenced, then converted to a format (such as Ancestry) suitable to upload to GEDMatch. Then using GEDMatch to find a match on the autosomal DNA. Then, collecting discarded objects from the suspect(s) in order to determine if there would be a CODIS match, etc. When law enforcement found something that could be a match, they then issued a warrant, a process that Doug had mentioned. A long chain of events and a lot of detective work. In this example, a lab mixup is not the issue. I was just trying to point out that there are a lot of issues with using what is considered to be a public database, such as GEDMatch. (I think only a couple of States have laws against that.) For example, the Golden State Killer went back to the 4th cousin level, if memory serves me. For me, only half of the 4th and 5th cousins (known in my Y-DNA group) show up as a match from most vendors. If the vendors are not picking up all of your 4th cousins, then how does law enforcement know that they have the correct 4th cousin? Another issue (as I see it) is that we really have no evidence on how many 4th cousins may match on a CODIS test. Most people think DNA evidence is very good to use, but as we have seen with the Y-DNA, there are strange things going on, (such as parallel mutations) that we do not fully understand (when it comes to identification). A third issue would be that a jury would consider the DNA to be the ultimate measure of guilt, and tend to disregard whether or not the DNA would match anybody else. So much so that any other evidence from the defense would tend to be ignored, not only be the jury, but also by the public. I am in support of catching the bad guys, but I do have a problem with throwing a good person behind bars and calling them a bad guy. - Dave Hamm RE: On 11/29/2018 3:46 PM, Wjhonson wrote: > You're doubling back to something which makes no sense.Originally you claimed that DNA can be used to prove guilt and then reversed when the science improves.So the case we are talking about is *exactly* that case where DNA is *already being used* > In that case you know who the suspect is, you have their DNA.To *prove* that the DNA test was the result of a lab mixup, you then test their sibling, parent, etc. > That is the case of which we are speaking. Not any other. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: McDonald, J Douglas <jdmcdona@illinois.edu> > > That's absurd. We're talking samples which are unknown ... you know, the unknown rapist. > > There's no problem with the suspect's DNA once a search warrant for it is issued. > > Doug > -----Original Message----- > From: Wjhonson via GENEALOGY-DNA <genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com> > > This objection is easily overcome > Not only do you test the subject, you also test their parent, sibling, nephew, etc to prove that the original kit was not contaminated. > > > al RootsWeb community -- _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Wjhonson, Well, this thread had been talking about a number of issues, one of which included lab "mixups." (Such as the lab mixups in New York, one of the more recent issues that had been mentioned.) Another issue was poor quality samples at the scene of the crime. For Chen Long-Qi, the DNA samples at the scene of the crime were mixed, and Y-DNA was used. He was convicted, and 5 years later, he took another test with more markers that exonerated him. We had also mentioned the filmmaker. If you just happen to be innocent, few people are the same after event like this. I think the main issue here was the use of public databases, such as GEDMatch. So, you see, if you had tested all of your relatives, and posted to GEDMatch, then you have already given the sample to law enforcement. (Because GEDMatch has seemed to escape our Constitutional rights.) Which means, your family will be the first that law enforcement looks at, simply because it is already there, and easy to access. (A bias toward selecting your relatives.) In the case of the Golden State Killer, my understanding is that the last archive sample of the crime scene DNA was fully sequenced, then converted to a format (such as Ancestry) suitable to upload to GEDMatch. Then using GEDMatch to find a match on the autosomal DNA. Then, collecting discarded objects from the suspect(s) in order to determine if there would be a CODIS match, etc. When law enforcement found something that could be a match, they then issued a warrant, a process that Doug had mentioned. A long chain of events and a lot of detective work. In this example, a lab mixup is not the issue. I was just trying to point out that there are a lot of issues with using what is considered to be a public database, such as GEDMatch. (I think only a couple of States have laws against that.) For example, the Golden State Killer went back to the 4th cousin level, if memory serves me. For me, only half of the 4th and 5th cousins (known in my Y-DNA group) show up as a match from most vendors. If the vendors are not picking up all of your 4th cousins, then how does law enforcement know that they have the correct 4th cousin? Another issue (as I see it) is that we really have no evidence on how many 4th cousins may match on a CODIS test. Most people think DNA evidence is very good to use, but as we have seen with the Y-DNA, there are strange things going on, (such as parallel mutations) that we do not fully understand (when it comes to identification). A third issue would be that a jury would consider the DNA to be the ultimate measure of guilt, and tend to disregard whether or not the DNA would match anybody else. So much so that any other evidence from the defense would tend to be ignored, not only be the jury, but also by the public. I am in support of catching the bad guys, but I do have a problem with throwing a good person behind bars and calling them a bad guy. - Dave Hamm RE: On 11/29/2018 3:46 PM, Wjhonson  wrote: > You're doubling back to something which makes no sense.Originally you claimed that DNA can be used to prove guilt and then reversed when the science improves.So the case we are talking about is *exactly* that case where DNA is *already being used* > In that case you know who the suspect is, you have their DNA.To *prove* that the DNA test was the result of a lab mixup, you then test their sibling, parent, etc. > That is the case of which we are speaking.  Not any other. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: McDonald, J Douglas <jdmcdona@illinois.edu> > > That's absurd. We're talking samples which are unknown ... you know, the unknown rapist. > > There's no problem with the suspect's DNA once a search warrant for it is issued. > > Doug > -----Original Message----- > From: Wjhonson via GENEALOGY-DNA <genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com> > > This objection is easily overcome > Not only do you test the subject, you also test their parent, sibling, nephew, etc to prove that the original kit was not contaminated. > > > al RootsWeb community --

Thank you for your reply--I decided the quickest way was to delete the account.  I had half a dozen old accounts left over from the time when I ran a Y-DNA project at Ancestry and I have activated another one.  I did lose the tree I started yesterday, but rebuilding it won't take too long.  Although Ancestry has the best system I've seen yet, there should be a quick, easy way to delete trees you don't want or need. Lindsey  -----Original Message----- From: LornaMoa <lornamoa@gmail.com> To: genealogy-dna <genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com> Cc: Lindsey Britton <lplantagenet@aol.com> Sent: Thu, Nov 29, 2018 8:09 pm Subject: Re: [DNA] Deleting Trees from Ancestry Account Lindsey when you select Trees > Create or Mange trees I'd guess from what you are saying about being a contributor that these are these under the  tab Trees Shared with me  rather than  My trees ie created/owned by you If so, look on the rhs beyond where it says Guest / editor / contributor and click on the remove from list Lorna Henderson http://LornaHen.com On 30/11/18 13:22, Lindsey Britton via GENEALOGY-DNA wrote: > I activated an old Ancestry account for my mother's DNA results.  I was surprised to find  three trees associated with this account, one with the name Britton.  The Britton tree says I am a contributor.  I have no idea who these Brittons are and never contributed anything to their tree because they aren't related to me.  How do I delete these unwanted trees and how did they get into my account? Lindsey > > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

PS they would have got there because the owner of the tree sent you an invite Lorna Henderson http://LornaHen.com On 30/11/18 14:09, LornaMoa wrote: > Lindsey > when you select Trees > Create or Mange trees > I'd guess from what you are saying about being a contributor that > these are these under the  tab > Trees Shared with me >  rather than >  My trees > ie created/owned by you > > If so, look on the rhs beyond where it says Guest / editor / > contributor and click on the remove from list > > > Lorna Henderson > http://LornaHen.com > > On 30/11/18 13:22, Lindsey Britton via GENEALOGY-DNA wrote: >> I activated an old Ancestry account for my mother's DNA results.  I >> was surprised to find  three trees associated with this account, one >> with the name Britton.  The Britton tree says I am a contributor.  I >> have no idea who these Brittons are and never contributed anything to >> their tree because they aren't related to me.  How do I delete these >> unwanted trees and how did they get into my account? Lindsey >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref >> Unsubscribe >> https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com >> Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY  Terms and Conditions: >> https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 >> Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog >> RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal >> RootsWeb community >

Lindsey when you select Trees > Create or Mange trees I'd guess from what you are saying about being a contributor that these are these under the  tab Trees Shared with me  rather than  My trees ie created/owned by you If so, look on the rhs beyond where it says Guest / editor / contributor and click on the remove from list Lorna Henderson http://LornaHen.com On 30/11/18 13:22, Lindsey Britton via GENEALOGY-DNA wrote: > I activated an old Ancestry account for my mother's DNA results.  I was surprised to find  three trees associated with this account, one with the name Britton.  The Britton tree says I am a contributor.  I have no idea who these Brittons are and never contributed anything to their tree because they aren't related to me.  How do I delete these unwanted trees and how did they get into my account? Lindsey > > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

I activated an old Ancestry account for my mother's DNA results.  I was surprised to find  three trees associated with this account, one with the name Britton.  The Britton tree says I am a contributor.  I have no idea who these Brittons are and never contributed anything to their tree because they aren't related to me.  How do I delete these unwanted trees and how did they get into my account? Lindsey

You're doubling back to something which makes no sense.Originally you claimed that DNA can be used to prove guilt and then reversed when the science improves.So the case we are talking about is *exactly* that case where DNA is *already being used* In that case you know who the suspect is, you have their DNA.To *prove* that the DNA test was the result of a lab mixup, you then test their sibling, parent, etc. That is the case of which we are speaking.  Not any other. -----Original Message----- From: McDonald, J Douglas <jdmcdona@illinois.edu> To: genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com <genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thu, Nov 29, 2018 12:38 pm Subject: [DNA] Re: Use of familial search by law enforcement That's absurd. We're talking samples which are unknown ... you know, the unknown rapist. There's no problem with the suspect's DNA once a search warrant for it is issued. Doug -----Original Message----- From: Wjhonson via GENEALOGY-DNA <genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2018 8:25 PM To: genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com Cc: odoniv@yahoo.com; Wjhonson <wjhonson@aol.com> Subject: [DNA] Re: Use of familial search by law enforcement This objection is easily overcome Not only do you test the subject, you also test their parent, sibling, nephew, etc to prove that the original kit was not contaminated. al RootsWeb community _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Ann/Brian I have now seen the paper about paternal inheritance of mtDNA. The authors make a good case for showing that in 3 pedigrees there are people who have mixed 'heteroplasmic' mitochondrial DNA. They identified persons with mixtures of Haplogroups: R0a1 & H1a1, R0a1 & U5b1d1c, K1b2a & H, K1b2a & T2a1a, K2b1a1a & J2a1a1a2, K2b1a1 & K2a7 It is possible that in the past other people have found similar mixed 'heteroplasmic' results - but they have not been noted as indicating paternal inheritance. However, this is clearly an unusual occurrence. Let us wait and see what other sets of results appear ... Ian ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On 28/11/2018 12:55, Ann Turner wrote: > I see the authors also mention endonuclease G in the discussion section. > This article is going to spawn a lot of research! > > Ann Turner > > On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 1:17 PM <bps@norvic8.force9.co.uk> wrote: > >> One of the references on the ISOGG Facebook page was to a Science article >> from 2016 - Mitochondrial endonuclease G mediates breakdown of paternal >> mitochondria upon fertilization [Science, Vol. 353, p. 394, 22 July 2016]. >> >> I think this was studied in C. Elegans spermatozoa - not necessary the >> best model to humans! >> >> However, as almost any protein can have genetic mutations in it at some >> stage - could deficiencies in the structure of the endonuclease G >> equivalent in the human situation result in less than optimal destruction >> of those male mitochondria? >> >> Brian

That's absurd. We're talking samples which are unknown ... you know, the unknown rapist. There's no problem with the suspect's DNA once a search warrant for it is issued. Doug -----Original Message----- From: Wjhonson via GENEALOGY-DNA <genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2018 8:25 PM To: genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com Cc: odoniv@yahoo.com; Wjhonson <wjhonson@aol.com> Subject: [DNA] Re: Use of familial search by law enforcement This objection is easily overcome Not only do you test the subject, you also test their parent, sibling, nephew, etc to prove that the original kit was not contaminated. al RootsWeb community

List And the 5th. page. 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A10398G C10400T T10873C A11092G G11719A G11914A C12705T A13263G A13722G T14318C C14766T T14783C G15043A A15080G G15301A A15326G A15487T G15884A C16223T T16288C T16298C A16300G C16327T T16519C MH449062(Vietnam) Nong Haplogroup B4a5 24-NOV-2018 A73G A263G C522- A523- A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G T5465C T5814C C7028T G8155A C8281- C8282- C8283- C8284- C8285- T8286- C8287- T8288- A8289- T8490C A8860G G9123A G11719A A14518G C14766T A15236G A15244G A15326G T16093C A16182- A16183- T16189C 16193.1C 16193.2C T16217C C16261T T16357C T16519C MH449063(Vietnam) Nong Haplogroup M74a 24-NOV-2018 T63C C64T G66A A73G A215G A263G 315.1C T489C C522- A523- A750G A1438G A2706G C3495N G3496N C3498N A3499N C3500N A3501N T3502N C3503N T3504N A3505N C3507N A3508N T3509N A3511N T3517N A3518N A3520N T3521N C3567N T3590N T3593N A4769G G5054A T6185C A6575G C7028T G8251A A8701G A8860G T9540C C10268T A10398G C10400T T10873C G11719A C12705T A12850G T14311C C14766T T14783C G15043A G15301A A15326G T16093C C16223T T16311C T16362C T16381C MH449064(Vietnam) Nong Haplogroup B4a5 24-NOV-2018 A73G A263G 309.1C 309.2C 309.3C 315.1C C522- A523- A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G T5465C T5814C C7028T G8155A C8281- C8282- C8283- C8284- C8285- T8286- C8287- T8288- A8289- T8490C A8860G G9123A G11719A A14518G C14766T A15236G A15244G A15326G T16093C A16182- A16183- T16189C 16193.1C 16193.2C T16217C C16261T T16357C T16519C MH449065(Vietnam) Nong Haplogroup B5a1c1a1 24-NOV-2018 C64T A73G A210G A263G 315.1C C522- A523- T593C G709A A750G A1438G A2706G A3537G A4769G G5237A C6960T C7028T C8281- C8282- C8283- C8284- C8285- T8286- C8287- T8288- A8289- G8584A A8860G T9950C G10325A A10398G A10523G G11719A C14766T A14797G A15235G A15326G T16140C A16183- T16189C 16193.1C C16262T C16266A T16519C MH449066(Vietnam) Nong Haplogroup D5a2a1 24-NOV-2018 A73G G121A C150T A263G 315.1C T489C C522- A523- A750G C752T T1107C A2706G A3402G A4769G C4883T C5178A A5301G C5899- C7028T A8701G A8860G A9180G T9540C A10397G A10398G C10400T T10873C T11152C G11719A T11944C A12026G C12705T C13431T C14766T T14783C G15043A G15301A A15326G A16164G T16172C A16182- A16183- T16189C 16193.1C 16193.2C C16223T C16266T T16362C MH449067(Vietnam) Nong Haplogroup C4a2b 24-NOV-2018 A73G A249- A263G 315.1C T489C A750G A1438G A2706G T2887C C3462T T3552A T4696C A4715G A4769G G6026A A6131G C7028T C7196A G8584A A8701G A8860G T9540C A9545G A10398G C10400T T10873C G11719A G11914A G11969A T12624C A12672G C12705T A13263G T14318C C14766T T14783C G15043A T15115C T15204C G15301A A15326G A15487T T16189C C16223T T16298C T16311C C16327T T16357C T16519C MH449068(Vietnam) Nong Haplogroup C7a 24-NOV-2018 A73G A249- A263G 309.1C 309.2C 315.1C T489C 523.1C 523.2A A750G A1438G A2706G T3338C T3552A A4715G A4769G T5311C G5821A A6338G C7028T C7196A G7853A G8584A A8701G A8860G T9540C A9545G A10398G C10400T A10750G T10873C G11719A G11914A C12705T A13263G T14318C C14766T T14783C G15043A G15301A A15326G A15487T C16223T T16298C C16327T T16519C MH449069(Vietnam) Nong Haplogroup C4a2b 24-NOV-2018 A73G A249- A263G 315.1C T489C A750G A1438G A2706G T2887C C3462T T3552A T4696C A4715G A4769G G6026A A6131G C7028T C7196A G8584A A8701G A8860G T9540C A9545G A10398G C10400T T10873C G11719A G11914A G11969A T12624C A12672G C12705T A13263G T14318C C14766T T14783C G15043A T15115C T15204C G15301A A15326G A15487T T16189C C16223T T16298C T16311C C16327T T16357C T16519C MH449070(Vietnam) Nong Haplogroup C7a 24-NOV-2018 A73G A249- A263G 309.1C 309.2C 315.1C T489C 523.1C 523.2A A750G A1438G A2706G T3338C T3552A A4715G A4769G T5311C G5821A A6338G C7028T C7196A G7853A G8584A A8701G A8860G T9540C A9545G A10398G C10400T A10750G T10873C G11719A G11914A C12705T A13263G T14318C C14766T T14783C G15043A G15301A A15326G A15487T C16223T T16298C C16327T T16519C MH449071(Vietnam) Nong Haplogroup M12a1a 24-NOV-2018 A73G T125C T127C C128T T146C T152C A263G T318C T489C A750G A1438G A2706G T4117C C4170T A4769G T5580C T6293C C7028T A8701G A8860G T9540C A10398G C10400T T10873C G11719A A12030G A12358G G12372A C12705T G13135A A13257G G14569A T14727C C14766T T14783C A15010G G15043A A15076G G15301A A15326G A15463G A15562G C15651T T16093C G16129A C16223T C16234T C16290T T16311C

List And the 4th. page. Ian www.ianlogan.co.uk ------------------------------ MH449022(Vietnam) Nong Haplogroup F1a4a1 24-NOV-2018 A73G T152C A249- A263G 309.1C 309.2C 315.1C C520- A521- C522- A523- A750G A1438G T2626C A2706G C3970T C4086T A4769G G5985A T6392C T6956C G6962A C7028T 8276.1C A8860G G9053A G9548A G10310A T10609C T11075C G11719A G12406A C12882T A13422G G13759A G13928C C14766T A15326G T15445C G16129A T16172C T16243C C16294T T16304C T16362C T16519C MH449023(Vietnam) Nong Haplogroup G 24-NOV-2018 A73G A153G A183G A263G 309.1C 315.1C T489C G709A A750G A1438G C1959T A2706G C2772T C3342T A4769G A4833G T5108C A5222G C7028T 8289.1C 8289.2C 8289.3C 8289.4C 8289.5C 8289.6T 8289.7C 8289.8T 8289.9A A8701G A8860G T9540C A10286G A10398G C10400T T10873C T11410C G11719A A12397G C12705T T14530C G14569A C14766T T14783C G14905A G15043A G15301A A15326G T16086C T16092C C16223T T16362C T16519C MH449024(Vietnam) Nong Haplogroup G1a1 24-NOV-2018 A73G A200G A263G 309.1C 315.1C T489C C522- A523- G709A A750G A1438G T1694C A2706G C4694A A4769G A4833G T5108C C6668T C7028T C7867T T8200C A8701G A8860G T9540C A10398G C10400T A10658G T10873C G11719A C12705T G14569A C14766T T14783C G15043A G15301A G15323A A15326G G15497A A15860G C16223T T16325C C16355T T16362C T16519C MH449025(Vietnam) Nong Haplogroup F1a1a 24-NOV-2018 A73G C150T T195C A249- A263G 315.1C C522- A523- A750G G930A A1438G A2706G C3970T C4086T A4769G T6392C G6962A C7028T T7609C A8149G A8860G G9053A G9548A G10310A T10609C G11719A G12406A C12882T G13759A T13768C G13928C C14766T A15326G G15596A C16108T C16111T G16129A A16162G T16172C T16304C T16519C MH449026(Vietnam) Nong Haplogroup D4 24-NOV-2018 A73G A263G 309.1C 315.1C T489C A750G A1438G A2706G G3010A A4769G C4883T C5178A C7028T C8414T A8701G A8860G T9540C T9725C A10398G C10400T T10873C G11719A C12432T C12705T C14668T C14766T T14783C G15043A G15301A A15326G C16223T T16356C T16362C MH449027(Vietnam) Nong Haplogroup F1a1a 24-NOV-2018 A73G C150T T195C A249- A263G 315.1C C522- A523- A750G G930A A1438G A2706G C3970T C4086T A4769G T6392C G6962A C7028T T7609C A8149G A8860G G9053A G9548A G10310A T10609C G11719A G12406A C12882T G13759A T13768C G13928C C14766T A15326G G15596A C16108T C16111T G16129A A16162G T16172C T16304C T16519C MH449028(Vietnam) Nong Haplogroup N9a10-T16311C 24-NOV-2018 A73G C150T A263G 309.1C 315.1C A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G G5231A G5417A C7028T T8433C A8860G G9738A T9756G G11719A A12358G G12372A C12705T G12771A C14766T A15326G T16086C C16223T C16257A C16261T T16311C MH449029(Vietnam) Nong Haplogroup B5a1c1a1 24-NOV-2018 C64T A73G A210G A263G 315.1C C522- A523- T593C G709A A750G A1438G A2706G A3537G A4769G G5237A C6960T C7028T C8281- C8282- C8283- C8284- C8285- T8286- C8287- T8288- A8289- G8584A A8860G T9950C G10325A A10398G A10523G G11719A C14766T A14797G A15235G A15326G T16140C A16183- T16189C 16193.1C C16262T C16266A T16519C MH449030(Vietnam) Nong Haplogroup B4a5 24-NOV-2018 A73G A263G C522- A523- A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G T5465C T5814C C7028T G8155A C8281- C8282- C8283- C8284- C8285- T8286- C8287- T8288- A8289- T8490C A8860G G9123A G11719A A14518G C14766T A15236G A15244G A15326G T16093C A16182- A16183- T16189C 16193.1C 16193.2C T16217C C16261T T16357C T16519C MH449031(Vietnam) Nong Haplogroup N9a10-T16311C 24-NOV-2018 A73G C150T A263G 309.1C 315.1C A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G G5231A G5417A C7028T T8433C A8860G G9738A T9756G G11719A A12358G G12372A C12705T G12771A C14766T A15326G T16086C C16223T C16257A C16261T T16311C MH449032(Vietnam) Nong Haplogroup B4a5 24-NOV-2018 A73G A263G 309.1C 309.2C 309.3C 315.1C C522- A523- A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G T5465C T5814C C7028T G8155A C8281- C8282- C8283- C8284- C8285- T8286- C8287- T8288- A8289- T8490C A8860G G9123A G11719A A14518G C14766T A15236G A15244G A15326G T16093C A16182- A16183- T16189C 16193.1C 16193.2C T16217C C16261T T16357C T16519C MH449033(Vietnam) Nong Haplogroup N9a10-T16311C 24-NOV-2018 A73G C150T A263G 309.1C 315.1C A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G G5231A G5417A C7028T T8433C A8860G G9738A T9756G G11719A A12358G G12372A C12705T G12771A C14766T A15326G T16086C C16223T C16257A C16261T T16311C MH449034(Vietnam) Nong Haplogroup N9a10-T16311C 24-NOV-2018 A73G C150T A263G 309.1C 315.1C A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G G5231A G5417A C7028T T8433C A8860G G9738A T9756G G11719A A12358G G12372A C12705T G12771A C14766T A15326G T16086C C16223T C16257A C16261T T16311C MH449035(Vietnam) Nong Haplogroup M12a1a1 24-NOV-2018 A73G T125C T127C C128T A263G 315.1C T318C T489C G513A C522- A523- A750G A1438G A2706G G4048A C4170T A4769G T5580C C7028T A8701G A8860G C9490T T9540C A10398G C10400T T10873C G11719A A12030G A12358G G12372A G12501A C12705T G14569A T14727C C14766T T14783C A15010G G15043A G15301A A15326G A15463G C15651T C16223T C16234T C16257A C16290T T16311C T16362C MH449036(Vietnam) Nong Haplogroup B4a5 24-NOV-2018 A73G A263G 309.1C 315.1C C522- A523- A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G T5465C T5814C C7028T C8281- C8282- C8283- C8284- C8285- T8286- C8287- T8288- A8289- A8860G G9123A C9657T G11719A A14518G C14766T A15236G A15244G A15326G T16093C C16169T A16182- A16183- T16189C 16193.1C 16193.2C T16217C C16261T T16357C T16519C MH449037(Vietnam) Nong Haplogroup F1a2 24-NOV-2018 A73G A249- A263G 315.1C C522- A523- A750G A1438G A2706G C3970T C4025T C4086T A4769G C5191T T6392C G6962A C7028T G7853A A8860G G9053A T10034C G10310A T10609C G11719A G12406A C12882T G13759A G13928C C14766T A15326G T16172C T16224C T16304C T16519C MH449038(Vietnam) Nong Haplogroup B5a1c1a1 24-NOV-2018 C64T A73G A210G A263G 315.1C C522- A523- T593C G709A A750G A1438G A2706G A3537G A4769G G5237A C6960T C7028T C8281- C8282- C8283- C8284- C8285- T8286- C8287- T8288- A8289- G8584A A8860G T9950C G10325A A10398G A10523G G11719A C14766T A14797G A15235G A15326G T16140C A16183- T16189C 16193.1C C16262T C16266A T16519C MH449039(Vietnam) Nong Haplogroup N9a10-T16311C 24-NOV-2018 A73G C150T A263G 309.1C 315.1C A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G G5231A G5417A C7028T T8433C A8860G G9738A T9756G G11719A A12358G G12372A C12705T G12771A C14766T A15326G T16086C C16223T C16257A C16261T T16311C MH449040(Vietnam) Nong Haplogroup F3a1 24-NOV-2018 A73G T204C G207A A249- A263G 309.1C 315.1C G709A A750G A1438G A2706G A3434G C3970T A4769G G5585A A5894G G5913A A5978G T6392C C7028T A8860G T9854C G10310A G10320A A10499G A11065G G11719A C12621T T13095C G13928C C14766T T14971C A15326G T15943C C16260T T16298C C16355T T16362C MH449041(Vietnam) Nong Haplogroup B5a1c1a1 24-NOV-2018 C64T A73G A210G A263G 315.1C C522- A523- T593C G709A A750G A1438G A2706G A3537G A4769G G5237A C6960T C7028T C8281- C8282- C8283- C8284- C8285- T8286- C8287- T8288- A8289- G8584A A8860G T9950C G10325A A10398G A10523G G11719A C14766T A14797G A15235G A15326G T16140C A16183- T16189C 16193.1C C16262T C16266A T16519C MH449042(Vietnam) Nong Haplogroup N9a10-T16311C 24-NOV-2018 A73G C150T A263G 309.1C 315.1C A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G G5231A G5417A C7028T T8433C A8860G G9738A T9756G G11719A A12358G G12372A C12705T G12771A C14766T A15326G T16086C C16223T C16257A C16261T T16311C MH449043(Vietnam) Nong Haplogroup F1f 24-NOV-2018 A73G A249- A263G 315.1C C522- A523- A750G A1438G T1824C A2706G C3970T A4715G A4769G T6392C T6515C G6962A C7028T A8860G G9053A G10310A T10609C G11719A G12406A G12771A C12882T G13759A G13928C C14766T G14905A A15326G G16129A T16172C T16304C T16519C MH449044(Vietnam) Nong Haplogroup B5a1c1a 24-NOV-2018 A73G C114T A210G A263G C522- A523- T593C G709A A750G A1438G A2706G A3537G A4769G G5237A C6960T C7028T C8281- C8282- C8283- C8284- C8285- T8286- C8287- T8288- A8289- G8584A A8860G T9758C T9950C G10325A A10398G A10523G G11719A C14766T A15235G A15326G T16140C A16183- T16189C 16193.1C C16266A T16519C MH449045(Vietnam) Nong Haplogroup C5d 24-NOV-2018 A73G A249- A263G 309.1C 315.1C T489C A750G A1438G A2706G T3552A A4715G A4769G C7028T C7196A G8584A A8701G A8860G T9540C A9545G A10398G C10400T T10873C A11092G G11719A G11914A C12705T A13263G A13722G T14318C C14766T T14783C G15043A A15080G G15301A A15326G A15487T G15884A C16223T T16288C T16298C A16300G C16327T T16519C MH449046(Vietnam) Nong Haplogroup F3a1 24-NOV-2018 A73G T204C G207A A249- A263G 309.1C 315.1C G709A A750G A1438G A2706G A3434G C3970T A4769G G5585A A5894G G5913A A5978G T6392C C7028T A8860G T9854C G10310A G10320A A10499G A11065G G11719A C12621T G13928C C14766T T14971C A15326G T15943C C16260T T16298C C16355T T16362C

Thanks for posting these links. It makes a lot of sense. While they clearly looked different it was also the scarcity of women/men in that tough world that made it necessary for the survival of the races to populate and interbreed. Same goes how we initial split from the apes. It didn’t matter that the other one was slightly different. We exist because they were able to populate and thus our line didn’t end. Andreas Andreas West Meine Vorfahren / my ancestors (8 generations): http://www.wikitree.com/treewidget/Basso-23/5 Author of https://www.yourDNA.family Follow us on Facebook for latest updates on our progress - https://www.facebook.com/yourDNAfamily/ > On 29 Nov 2018, at 09:59, Tim Janzen <tjanzen@comcast.net> wrote: > > Dear All, > > A fresh analysis of the interbreeding of Neanderthals and humans has just > been published in the magazine Nature Ecology and Evolution. See > https://www.nature.com/articles/s41559-018-0735-8. A summary of this > article has been published in the New York Post at > https://nypost.com/2018/11/27/early-humans-hooked-up-with-neanderthals-all-t > he-time/ and in the National Post at > https://nationalpost.com/news/world/early-humans-relationship-with-neanderth > als-was-no-quick-fling-study-says?utm_term=Autofeed > <https://nationalpost.com/news/world/early-humans-relationship-with-neandert > hals-was-no-quick-fling-study-says?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_s > ource=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0R1KJvQLOsnyPGAWcKrAD-XzDyXuuRlnuTtUEbF4Rd2IvkPdMZ > PKibxb4#Echobox=1543451685> > &utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0R1KJvQLOsnyPGAWcKrAD-XzDy > XuuRlnuTtUEbF4Rd2IvkPdMZPKibxb4#Echobox=1543451685. The analysis suggests > that there was much more extensive interbreeding between Neanderthals and > humans than was previously thought. > > > > Sincerely, > > Tim Janzen > > > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Dear All, A fresh analysis of the interbreeding of Neanderthals and humans has just been published in the magazine Nature Ecology and Evolution. See https://www.nature.com/articles/s41559-018-0735-8. A summary of this article has been published in the New York Post at https://nypost.com/2018/11/27/early-humans-hooked-up-with-neanderthals-all-t he-time/ and in the National Post at https://nationalpost.com/news/world/early-humans-relationship-with-neanderth als-was-no-quick-fling-study-says?utm_term=Autofeed <https://nationalpost.com/news/world/early-humans-relationship-with-neandert hals-was-no-quick-fling-study-says?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_s ource=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0R1KJvQLOsnyPGAWcKrAD-XzDyXuuRlnuTtUEbF4Rd2IvkPdMZ PKibxb4#Echobox=1543451685> &utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0R1KJvQLOsnyPGAWcKrAD-XzDy XuuRlnuTtUEbF4Rd2IvkPdMZPKibxb4#Echobox=1543451685. The analysis suggests that there was much more extensive interbreeding between Neanderthals and humans than was previously thought. Sincerely, Tim Janzen

Ah, my apologies for getting it turned around. Wjhonson wrote: > Not make you provide it to help *convict* your brother. > You willingly provide it to prove that the DNA of your brother, is > actually a lab mixup. > That's what is being discussed > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert T Wyatt <robert.wyatt@gmail.com> > To: Wjhonson <wjhonson@aol.com>; genealogy-dna > <genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com> > Cc: odoniv <odoniv@yahoo.com> > Sent: Wed, Nov 28, 2018 9:39 am > Subject: Re: [DNA] Re: Use of familial search by law enforcement > > No, I'm saying that you can't make me provide my DNA in order to help > convict my brother. > > Wjhonson wrote: >> Of course it's a legal one. >> Are you saying that if your brother were to be convicted on DNA >> evidence, you would not also be willing to submit your own DNA to >> prove that it's not his DNA at all? >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Robert T Wyatt <robert.wyatt@gmail.com> >> <mailto:robert.wyatt@gmail.com> >> To: genealogy-dna <genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com> >> <mailto:genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com> >> Cc: odoniv <odoniv@yahoo.com> <mailto:odoniv@yahoo.com>; Wjhonson >> <wjhonson@aol.com> <mailto:wjhonson@aol.com> >> Sent: Wed, Nov 28, 2018 7:34 am >> Subject: Re: [DNA] Re: Use of familial search by law enforcement >> >> That may be a scientific solution, but it's not a legal one. >> >> >> Wjhonson via GENEALOGY-DNA wrote: >> > This objection is easily overcome >> > Not only do you test the subject, you also test their parent, >> sibling, nephew, etc to prove that the original kit was not contaminated. >> > >> > >> >

Not make you provide it to help *convict* your brother.You willingly provide it to prove that the DNA of your brother, is actually a lab mixup.That's what is being discussed -----Original Message----- From: Robert T Wyatt <robert.wyatt@gmail.com> To: Wjhonson <wjhonson@aol.com>; genealogy-dna <genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com> Cc: odoniv <odoniv@yahoo.com> Sent: Wed, Nov 28, 2018 9:39 am Subject: Re: [DNA] Re: Use of familial search by law enforcement No, I'm saying that you can't make me provide my DNA in order to help convict my brother. Wjhonson wrote: Of course it's a legal one. Are you saying that if your brother were to be convicted on DNA evidence, you would not also be willing to submit your own DNA to prove that it's not his DNA at all? -----Original Message----- From: Robert T Wyatt <robert.wyatt@gmail.com> To: genealogy-dna <genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com> Cc: odoniv <odoniv@yahoo.com>; Wjhonson <wjhonson@aol.com> Sent: Wed, Nov 28, 2018 7:34 am Subject: Re: [DNA] Re: Use of familial search by law enforcement That may be a scientific solution, but it's not a legal one. Wjhonson via GENEALOGY-DNA wrote: > This objection is easily overcome > Not only do you test the subject, you also test their parent, sibling, nephew, etc to prove that the original kit was not contaminated. >  > 

No, I'm saying that you can't make me provide my DNA in order to help convict my brother. Wjhonson wrote: > Of course it's a legal one. > Are you saying that if your brother were to be convicted on DNA > evidence, you would not also be willing to submit your own DNA to > prove that it's not his DNA at all? > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert T Wyatt <robert.wyatt@gmail.com> > To: genealogy-dna <genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com> > Cc: odoniv <odoniv@yahoo.com>; Wjhonson <wjhonson@aol.com> > Sent: Wed, Nov 28, 2018 7:34 am > Subject: Re: [DNA] Re: Use of familial search by law enforcement > > That may be a scientific solution, but it's not a legal one. > > > Wjhonson via GENEALOGY-DNA wrote: > > This objection is easily overcome > > Not only do you test the subject, you also test their parent, > sibling, nephew, etc to prove that the original kit was not contaminated. > > > > >

Again objections like this are easily overcome. -----Original Message----- From: Dave Hamm via GENEALOGY-DNA <genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com> To: genealogy-dna <genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com> Cc: Dave Hamm <odoniv@yahoo.com> Sent: Wed, Nov 28, 2018 7:40 am Subject: [DNA] Re: Use of familial search by law enforcement Wjhonson, I would refer you to this article: "Is DNA forensic evidence accurate?"  - Errors in DNA testing occur relatively frequently.  - It has been suggested that as many as one in every hundred forensic tests performed on the DNA of suspected criminals may give a false result.  - False matches between an individual’s DNA profile and a crime scene DNA profile can occur by chance. Poor laboratory practices can lead to cross-contamination or mislabelling of samples, and test results can be misinterpretated.  - DNA can be damaged by environmental factors such as heat, sunlight and bacteria. This may affect the accuracy of tests carried out. see: "Is it ethical to have a national DNA database? " https://www.yourgenome.org/debates/is-it-ethical-to-have-a-national-dna-database#q6  - Dave Hamm RE: On 11/27/2018 4:09 PM, Wjhonson  wrote: >  The entire basis of this thread is to counter the outrageous claim that the type of *autosomal* DNA which is loaded to gedmatch could *EVER* result in a false positive. > It can *never* result in a false positive.  Autosomal DNA is so precise it can tell parent from child, sibling from sibling, cousin from cousin.  There is no such thing as a false positive. >  -- _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Of course it's a legal one.Are you saying that if your brother were to be convicted on DNA evidence, you would not also be willing to submit your own DNA to prove that it's not his DNA at all? -----Original Message----- From: Robert T Wyatt <robert.wyatt@gmail.com> To: genealogy-dna <genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com> Cc: odoniv <odoniv@yahoo.com>; Wjhonson <wjhonson@aol.com> Sent: Wed, Nov 28, 2018 7:34 am Subject: Re: [DNA] Re: Use of familial search by law enforcement That may be a scientific solution, but it's not a legal one. Wjhonson via GENEALOGY-DNA wrote: > This objection is easily overcome > Not only do you test the subject, you also test their parent, sibling, nephew, etc to prove that the original kit was not contaminated. >  > 

Wjhonson, I would refer you to this article: "Is DNA forensic evidence accurate?"  - Errors in DNA testing occur relatively frequently.  - It has been suggested that as many as one in every hundred forensic tests performed on the DNA of suspected criminals may give a false result.  - False matches between an individual’s DNA profile and a crime scene DNA profile can occur by chance. Poor laboratory practices can lead to cross-contamination or mislabelling of samples, and test results can be misinterpretated.  - DNA can be damaged by environmental factors such as heat, sunlight and bacteria. This may affect the accuracy of tests carried out. see: "Is it ethical to have a national DNA database? " https://www.yourgenome.org/debates/is-it-ethical-to-have-a-national-dna-database#q6  - Dave Hamm RE: On 11/27/2018 4:09 PM, Wjhonson  wrote: > The entire basis of this thread is to counter the outrageous claim that the type of *autosomal* DNA which is loaded to gedmatch could *EVER* result in a false positive. > It can *never* result in a false positive.  Autosomal DNA is so precise it can tell parent from child, sibling from sibling, cousin from cousin.  There is no such thing as a false positive. > --

That may be a scientific solution, but it's not a legal one. Wjhonson via GENEALOGY-DNA wrote: > This objection is easily overcome > Not only do you test the subject, you also test their parent, sibling, nephew, etc to prove that the original kit was not contaminated. > >