Andreas The FTDNA ICW report uses the same criteria for a Match that FTDNA uses for your Match list: 7.7cM segment, 20cM total, etc. So all of your ICW list with Match A meets this criteria for you (everyone on the ICW list is already listed as a Match for you) AND each person on that ICW list meets the same criteria for Match A (is already on the Match list for A). So no one is talking about matching based on 1 or 2cM. Every shared segment over a threshold (7.7cM, etc for FTDNA) has to be somewhere. When such segments for Matches A and B significantly overlap on the same chromosome in your spreadsheet, they are on the same chromosome OR on opposite chromosomes OR one or both are IBS. If they were IBS or on opposite chromosomes they are rarely ICW. Using the 7.7cM threshold, the FTDNA ICW method for triangulation works a very high percentage of the time. Getting a confirmation from either A or B make it as firm as any other TG. I don't see 1cM segments in this process. Jim - www.segmentology.org > On Dec 13, 2015, at 12:40 AM, Andreas West via <genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com> wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > > was just stumbling across a post on WikiTree forum on DNAGedcom being able to > triangulate data from GEDmatch and FTDNA. Leaving GEDmatch out for this thread > (I think the OP refers to the paid tier 1 option which gives access to the top > 200 triangulated matches and downloading that screen result - please correct > me if there is another way) I want to question that remark about FTDNA. > > My assumption is that ICW (which isn't triangulation, can't repeat that often > enough as there are still people out there who don't understand the difference > or that there is one to start with) means that it includes all those 1cM > matches (and larger) that FTDNA reports as a minimum criteria. > > Can someone confirm this? > > That makes the ICW tool even more worrisome if it's true as it's not even > clear if a triangulated segment of only 1cM (or 2cM for that matter) is indeed > an ancestral segment, triangulation or not (I refer to various discussions we > had here and on other email lists about this - no need to start that > discussion again until we have more proof). > > Andreas (WEST) born BASSO >

List 89 Nepalese/Tibetan mtDNA sequences have appeared on the GenBank database. They accompany the paper: 'Genetic evidence of a recent Tibetan ancestry to Sherpas in the Himalayan region' Bhandari S, et al. Sci Rep. 2015 Nov 5;5:16249. A free download at: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4633682/ As usual I have added the sequences to my 'Checker' program to ensure accuracy of transcription. Ian (ww.ianlogan.co.uk) ------------------------ Abstract Sherpas living around the Himalayas are renowned as high-altitude mountain climbers but when and where the Sherpa people originated from remains contentious. In this study, we collected DNA samples from 582 Sherpas living in Nepal and Tibet Autonomous Region of China to study the genetic diversity of both their maternal (mitochondrial DNA) and paternal (Y chromosome) lineages. Analysis showed that Sherpas share most of their paternal and maternal lineages with indigenous Tibetans, representing a recently derived sub-lineage. The estimated ages of two Sherpa-specific mtDNA sub-haplogroups (C4a3b1 and A15c1) indicate a shallow genetic divergence between Sherpas and Tibetans less than 1,500 years ago. These findings reject the previous theory that Sherpa and Han Chinese served as dual ancestral populations of Tibetans, and conversely suggest that Tibetans are the ancestral populations of the Sherpas, whose adaptive traits for high altitude were recently inherited from their ancestors in Tibet. ------------------ KT213741(Nepal) Bhandari Haplogroup M9a1a 08-DEC-2015 A73G A153G A263G 309.1C T489C A750G A1041G A1438G A2706G T3394C G4491A A4769G C7028T A8701G A8860G T9540C A10398G C10400T T10873C G11719A C12705T T14308C C14766T T14783C G15043A G15301A A15326G A15924G C16223T C16234T A16316G T16362C KT213742(Nepal) Bhandari Haplogroup A15c1 08-DEC-2015 A73G T152C A235G 309.1C 315.1C A663G A750G A1438G A1736G A2706G C3107N T4216C T4248C A4769G A4824G C7028T A8459G C8794T A8860G A9052G G11719A C12705T T13111C T13191C C14067T C14766T T15262C A15326G A15924G C16223T C16290T G16319A T16362C KT213743(Nepal) Bhandari Haplogroup A15c1 08-DEC-2015 A73G T152C A235G 315.1C A663G A750G A1438G A1736G A2706G C3107N T4216C T4248C A4769G A4824G C7028T A8459G C8794T A8860G G8959A A9052G G11719A C12705T T13111C C14067T C14766T T15262C A15326G A15924G C16223T C16290T G16319A T16362C KT213744(Nepal) Bhandari Haplogroup A15c1 08-DEC-2015 A73G T152C A235G 309.1C 315.1C A663G A750G A1438G A1736G A2706G C3107N T4216C T4248C A4769G A4824G T6956C C7028T A8459G C8794T A8860G A9052G G11719A C12705T T13111C C14067T C14766T T15262C A15326G A15924G C16223T C16290T T16311C G16319A T16362C KT213745(Nepal) Bhandari Haplogroup C4a3b1 08-DEC-2015 A73G A263G T310C T489C G709A A750G A1438G C1677T 2232.1A A2706G T2887C C3107N T3552A G3745A T4696C A4715G A4769G 5899.1C G6026A C7028T C7196A G8584A A8701G A8860G T9540C A9545G T10304C A10398G C10400T T10873C C11155T G11719A G11914A G11969A T12624C A12672G C12705T A13263G A13563G T14318C C14766T T14783C G15043A T15204C G15301A A15326G A15487T C16223T T16298C T16311C C16327T T16357C T16519C KT213746(Nepal) Bhandari Haplogroup A15c1 08-DEC-2015 A73G T152C A235G 309.1C 315.1C A663G A750G A1438G A1736G A2706G C3107N T4216C T4248C A4769G A4824G C5355T C7028T A8459G C8794T A8860G A9052G G11719A C12705T T13111C C14067T C14766T T15262C A15326G A15924G C16223T C16290T G16319A T16362C KT213747(Nepal) Bhandari Haplogroup A15c1 08-DEC-2015 A73G T152C A235G 309.1C A663G A750G A1438G A1736G A2706G C3107N T4216C T4248C A4769G A4824G C7028T A8459G C8794T A8860G A9052G G11719A C12705T T13111C C14067T C14766T T15262C A15326G C16223T C16290T G16319A T16362C KT213748(Nepal) Bhandari Haplogroup C4a3b1 08-DEC-2015 A73G A263G T310C T489C A750G A1438G C1677T 2232.1A A2706G T2887C C3107N T3552A G3745A T4696C A4715G A4769G 5899.1C G6026A C7028T C7196A G8584A A8701G A8860G T9540C A9545G T10304C A10398G C10400T T10873C C11155T G11719A G11914A G11969A T12624C A12672G C12705T A13263G A13563G T14318C C14766T T14783C G15043A T15204C G15301A A15326G A15487T C16223T T16298C T16311C C16327T T16357C T16519C KT213749(Nepal) Bhandari Haplogroup C4a3b1 08-DEC-2015 A73G A263G T310C T489C A750G A1438G C1677T 2232.1A A2706G T2887C C3107N T3552A G3745A T4696C A4715G A4769G 5899.1C G6026A C7028T C7196A G8584A A8701G A8860G T9540C A9545G T10304C A10398G C10400T T10873C C11155T G11719A G11914A G11969A T12624C A12672G C12705T A13263G A13563G T14318C C14766T T14783C G15043A T15204C G15301A A15326G A15487T C16223T T16298C T16311C C16327T T16357C T16519C KT213750(Nepal) Bhandari Haplogroup A15c1 08-DEC-2015 A73G T152C A235G 309.1C 315.1C A663G A750G A1438G A1736G A2706G C3107N T4216C T4248C A4769G A4824G C7028T A8459G C8794T A8860G A9052G G11719A C12705T T13111C C14067T C14766T T15262C A15326G A15924G C16223T C16290T T16311C G16319A T16362C KT213751(Nepal) Bhandari Haplogroup C4a3b1 08-DEC-2015 A73G A263G T310C T489C A750G A1438G C1677T 2232.1A A2706G T2887C C3107N T3552A G3745A T4696C A4715G A4769G 5899.1C G6026A C7028T C7196A G8584A A8701G A8860G T9540C A9545G T10304C A10398G C10400T T10873C C11155T G11719A G11914A G11969A T12624C A12672G C12705T A13263G A13563G T14318C C14766T T14783C G15043A T15204C G15301A A15326G A15487T C16223T T16298C T16311C C16327T T16357C T16519C KT213752(Nepal) Bhandari Haplogroup C4a3b1 08-DEC-2015 A73G A263G T310C T489C A750G A1438G C1677T 2232.1A A2706G T2887C C3107N T3552A G3745A T4696C A4715G A4769G 5899.1C G6026A C7028T C7196A G8584A A8701G A8860G T9540C A9545G T10304C A10398G C10400T T10873C C11155T G11719A G11914A G11969A T12624C A12672G C12705T A13263G A13563G T14318C C14766T T14783C G15043A T15204C G15301A A15326G A15487T C16223T T16298C T16311C C16327T T16357C T16519C KT213753(Nepal) Bhandari Haplogroup A15c1 08-DEC-2015 A73G T152C A235G 309.1C 315.1C A663G A750G A1438G A1736G A2706G C3107N T4216C T4248C A4769G A4824G C7028T A8459G C8794T A8860G A9052G G11719A C12705T T13111C C14067T C14766T T15262C A15326G A15924G C16223T C16290T G16319A T16362C KT213754(Nepal) Bhandari Haplogroup C4a3b1 08-DEC-2015 A73G A263G T310C T489C A750G A1438G C1677T 2232.1A A2706G T2887C C3107N T3552A G3745A T4696C A4715G A4769G 5899.1C G6026A C7028T C7196A G8584A A8701G A8860G T9540C A9545G T10304C A10398G C10400T T10873C C11155T G11719A G11914A G11969A T12624C A12672G C12705T A13263G A13563G T14318C C14766T T14783C G15043A T15204C G15301A A15326G A15487T C16223T T16298C T16311C C16327T T16357C T16519C KT213755(Nepal) Bhandari Haplogroup C4a3b1 08-DEC-2015 A73G A263G T310C T489C A750G A1438G C1677T 2232.1A A2706G T2887C C3107N T3552A G3745A T4696C A4715G A4769G 5899.1C G6026A C7028T C7196A G8584A A8701G A8860G T9540C A9545G T10304C A10398G C10400T T10873C C11155T G11719A G11914A G11969A T12624C A12672G C12705T A13263G A13563G T14318C C14766T T14783C G15043A T15204C G15301A A15326G A15487T C16223T T16298C T16311C C16327T T16357C T16519C KT213756(Nepal) Bhandari Haplogroup C4a3b1 08-DEC-2015 A73G A263G T310C A385G T489C A750G A1438G C1677T 2232.1A A2706G T2887C C3107N T3552A G3745A T4696C A4715G A4769G 5899.1C G6026A C7028T C7196A G8584A A8701G A8860G T9540C A9545G T10304C A10398G C10400T T10873C C11155T G11719A G11914A G11969A T12624C A12672G C12705T A13263G A13563G T14318C C14766T T14783C G15043A T15204C G15301A A15326G A15487T C16223T T16298C T16311C C16327T T16357C T16519C KT213757(Nepal) Bhandari Haplogroup A15c1 08-DEC-2015 A73G T152C A235G 309.1C 315.1C A663G A750G A1438G A1736G A2706G C3107N T4216C T4248C A4769G A4824G C7028T A8459G C8794T A8860G A9052G G11719A C12705T T13111C C14067T C14766T T15262C A15326G A15924G C16223T C16290T G16319A T16362C KT213758(Nepal) Bhandari Haplogroup C4a3b1 08-DEC-2015 A73G A263G T310C T489C A750G A1438G C1677T 2232.1A A2706G T2887C C3107N T3552A G3745A T4696C A4715G A4769G 5899.1C G6026A C7028T C7196A G8584A A8701G A8860G T9540C A9545G T10304C A10398G C10400T T10873C C11155T G11719A G11914A G11969A T12624C A12672G C12705T A13263G A13563G T14318C C14766T T14783C G15043A T15204C G15301A A15326G A15487T C15658T C16223T T16298C T16311C C16327T T16357C T16519C KT213759(Nepal) Bhandari Haplogroup C4a3b1 08-DEC-2015 A73G A263G T310C T489C A750G A1438G C1677T 2232.1A A2706G T2887C C3107N T3552A G3745A T4696C A4715G A4769G 5899.1C G6026A C7028T C7196A G8584A A8701G A8860G T9540C A9545G T10304C A10398G C10400T T10873C C11155T G11719A G11914A G11969A T12624C A12672G C12705T A13263G A13563G T14318C C14766T T14783C G15043A T15204C G15301A A15326G A15487T C15658T C16223T T16298C T16311C C16327T T16357C T16519C KT213760(Nepal) Bhandari Haplogroup A15c1 08-DEC-2015 A73G T152C A235G 309.1C 315.1C A663G A750G A1438G A1736G A2706G C3107N T4216C T4248C A4769G A4824G C7028T A8459G C8794T A8860G A9052G G11719A C12705T T13111C C14067T C14766T T15262C A15326G A15924G C16223T C16290T G16319A T16362C KT213761(Nepal) Bhandari Haplogroup C4a3b1 08-DEC-2015 A73G A263G T310C T489C A750G A1438G C1677T 2232.1A A2706G T2887C C3107N T3552A G3745A T4696C A4715G A4769G 5899.1C G6026A C7028T C7196A G8584A A8701G A8860G T9540C A9545G T10304C A10398G C10400T T10873C C11155T G11719A G11914A G11969A T12624C A12672G C12705T A13263G A13563G T14318C C14766T T14783C G15043A T15204C G15301A A15326G A15487T C15658T C16223T T16298C T16311C C16327T T16357C T16519C KT213762(Nepal) Bhandari Haplogroup C4a3b1 08-DEC-2015 A73G A263G T310C T489C A750G A1438G C1677T 2232.1A A2706G T2887C C3107N T3552A G3745A T4696C A4715G A4769G 5899.1C G6026A C7028T C7196A G8584A A8701G A8860G T9540C A9545G T10304C A10398G C10400T T10873C C11155T G11719A G11914A G11969A T12624C A12672G C12705T A13263G A13563G T14318C C14766T T14783C G15043A T15204C G15301A A15326G A15487T C16223T T16298C T16311C C16327T T16357C T16519C KT213763(Nepal) Bhandari Haplogroup C4a3b1 08-DEC-2015 A73G A263G T310C T489C A750G A1438G C1677T 2232.1A A2706G T2887C C3107N T3552A G3745A T4696C A4715G A4769G 5899.1C G6026A C7028T C7196A G8584A A8701G A8860G T9540C A9545G T10304C A10398G C10400T T10873C C11155T G11719A G11914A G11969A T12624C A12672G C12705T A13263G A13563G T14318C C14766T T14783C G15043A T15204C G15301A A15326G A15487T A16037G C16223T T16298C T16311C C16327T T16357C T16519C KT213764(Nepal) Bhandari Haplogroup A15c1 08-DEC-2015 A73G T152C A235G 309.1C 315.1C A663G A750G A1438G A1736G A2706G C3107N T4216C T4248C A4769G A4824G C7028T A8459G C8794T A8860G A9052G G11719A C12705T T13111C C14067T C14766T T15262C A15326G A15924G C16223T C16290T G16319A T16362C KT213765(Nepal) Bhandari Haplogroup C4a3b1 08-DEC-2015 A73G A263G T310C T489C A750G A1438G C1677T 2232.1A A2706G T2887C C3107N T3552A G3745A T4696C A4715G A4769G 5899.1C G6026A C7028T C7196A G8584A A8701G A8860G T9540C A9545G T10304C A10398G C10400T T10873C C11155T G11719A G11914A G11969A T12624C A12672G C12705T A13263G A13563G T14318C C14766T T14783C G15043A T15204C G15301A A15326G A15487T C16223T T16298C T16311C C16327T T16357C T16519C KT213766(Nepal) Bhandari Haplogroup C4a3b1 08-DEC-2015 A73G A263G T310C T489C A750G A1438G C1677T 2232.1A A2706G T2887C C3107N T3552A G3745A T4696C A4715G A4769G 5899.1C G6026A C7028T C7196A G8584A A8701G A8860G T9540C A9545G T10304C A10398G C10400T T10873C C11155T G11719A G11914A G11969A T12624C A12672G C12705T A13263G A13563G T14318C C14766T T14783C G15043A T15204C G15301A A15326G A15487T C16223T T16298C T16311C C16327T T16357C T16519C KT213767(Nepal) Bhandari Haplogroup C4a3b1 08-DEC-2015 A73G A263G 309.1C T310C T489C A750G A1438G C1677T 2232.1A A2706G T2887C C3107N T3552A G3745A T4696C A4715G A4769G 5899.1C G6026A C7028T C7196A G8584A A8701G A8860G T9540C A9545G T10304C A10398G C10400T T10873C C11155T C11398T G11719A G11914A G11969A T12624C A12672G C12705T A13263G A13563G T14318C C14766T T14783C G15043A T15204C G15301A A15326G A15487T C16223T T16298C T16311C C16327T T16357C T16519C KT213768(Nepal) Bhandari Haplogroup C4a3b1 08-DEC-2015 A73G A263G T310C T489C A750G A1438G C1677T 2232.1A A2706G T2887C C3107N T3552A G3745A T4696C A4715G A4769G 5899.1C G6026A C7028T C7196A G8584A A8701G A8860G T9540C A9545G T10304C A10398G C10400T T10873C C11155T G11719A G11914A G11969A T12624C A12672G C12705T A13263G A13563G T14318C C14766T T14783C G15043A T15204C G15301A A15326G A15487T C16223T T16298C T16311C C16327T T16357C T16519C KT213769(Nepal) Bhandari Haplogroup A15c1 08-DEC-2015 A73G T152C A235G A663G A750G A1438G A1736G A2706G C3107N T4216C T4248C A4769G A4824G C7028T A8459G C8794T A8860G A9052G G11719A C12705T T13111C C14067T C14766T T15262C A15326G A15924G C16223T C16290T G16319A T16362C KT213770(Nepal) Bhandari Haplogroup C4a3b1 08-DEC-2015 A73G A263G T310C T489C A750G A1438G C1677T 2232.1A A2706G T2887C C3107N T3552A G3745A T4696C A4715G A4769G 5899.1C G6026A C7028T C7196A G8584A A8701G A8860G T9540C A9545G T10304C A10398G C10400T T10873C C11155T G11719A G11914A G11969A T12624C A12672G C12705T A13263G A13563G T14318C C14766T T14783C G15043A T15204C G15301A A15326G A15487T C16223T T16298C T16311C C16327T T16357C T16519C

Andreas, I have an excellent example that proves this. ADSA shows a group of matches as ICW me. The group includes a known cousin on my paternal side and several known cousins on my maternal side. The only conclusion is that they do not triangulate and, indeed, when I run these known cousins through the Gedmatch One-to-One tool, they do not match each other. Doris On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 4:39 AM, Andreas West via < genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Thanks Tim and yes, I have two phased sets for each of my parents at > GEDmatch. > > Let us all be thankful for them providing the tools that all those > multi-million (or even billion) companies are not giving us. > > Also good to hear that you agree with my points. > > Do I understand your "disagree" with the ADSA tool documentation (the > statement I posted) as that you agree with me that it's misleading and > can't be done with FTDNA data? > > Andreas > > > On 13 Dec 2015, at 15:12, Tim Janzen via <genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com> > wrote: > > > > Dear Andreas, > > > > I agree with you that simply having your matches match each other using > the > > ICW tool doesn't necessarily mean that they triangulate. I agree with > you > > that most of the small 1 and 2 cMs HIRs are IBS and therefore even if > people > > match on them then this doesn't mean that this represents a DNA segment > that > > was passed down from a shared ancestor. I disagree with the DNAGEDCOM > > statement about use of the ICW data. The data will likely triangulate > most > > of the time, but certainly not 100% of the time, particularly for people > who > > come from endogamous populations. I have suggested to Family Tree DNA > that > > they should allow their customers to be able to compare their matches to > > each other like we can in 23andMe with the Family Inheritance: Advanced > > tool, but so far FTDNA has chosen not to allow that feature. I wish that > > they would at least create it as an opt in feature. I have advocated > with > > both 23andMe and Family Tree DNA for at least 4 years to generate matches > > based on family phased data, but so far neither company has invested the > > time and effort to do that. Ancestry.com generates phased data, but the > > data is not 100% accurate because they don't use family data to generate > > phased data. As you mentioned, the lack of a chromosome browser at > Ancestry. > > com dramatically reduces the utility of the AncestryDNA test. GEDmatch > will > > generate phased data for you and will allow you to upload your own phased > > data if you would like to do that. One of the main reasons that > GEDmatch is > > so popular is because it provides the serious autosomal genetic > genealogist > > with the tools they need to run the kinds of comparisons they need to > run. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Tim Janzen > > > > > > > > From: Andreas West [mailto:ahnen@awest.de] > > Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2015 11:27 PM > > To: Tim Janzen; genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com > > Cc: genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [DNA] Are FTDNA's 1cM matches shown in ICW as well? > > > > > > > > Hi Tim, > > > > > > > > > > > > thanks for taking the time to answer. What I meant is that just using the > > ICW tool with your two matches B and C (without asking B and C where they > > match each other) is not triangulation to me. > > > > > > > > It might be semantics but to me it's more. > > > > > > > > Given that the ICW that FTDNA is showing between B and C can only be 1cM > or > > 2cM large, even IF it's on the same loci (which is unknown without asking > > one of them AND getting that information) does it mean it's 100% a > > triangulated group → meaning it comes from a common ancestor? > > > > > > > > For me it's not. But that's what is stated in that WikiTree answer and > also > > partially in the documentation of the ADSA tool. I quote from here: > > https://www.dnagedcom.com/adsa/adsamanual.html.php > > > > > > > > "The Autosomal DNA Segment Analyzer (ADSA) is a tool that takes your data > > from Family Tree DNA or GEDMATCH and constructs tables that include match > > and segment information as well as a visual graph of overlapping > segments, > > juxtaposed with a customized, color-coded In-Common-With (ICW) matrix > that > > will permit you to triangulate matching segments without having to look > in > > multiple spreadsheets or on different web pages." > > > > > > > > "will permit you to triangulate matching segments"!!!! > > > > > > > > It uses both ICE and triangulate in the same sentence, giving the > impression > > that it's possible to do with FTDNA's data (please note I'm not saying > the > > ADSA tool can't do it, it's not possible with the data it receives as > > input). It's IMO (unless you get that B and C match data as mentioned, > which > > can't be downloaded and imported in the ADSA tool BTW) not possible. > > > > > > > > So I think this is highly misleading and supports the confusion when > people > > assume that: > > > > > > > > ICW = triangulation > > > > > > > > which is unfortunately not true. There is a likelihood (eg A, B and C all > > match at the same loci with 20+cM matches between each other - surely > coming > > from a common ancestor) but like I mention given that FTDNA shows 1cM > > matches as ICW (which was my original question) I think we all agree that > > the jury is still out if this is indeed an ancestral segment verified by > > triangulation (see the following example): > > > > > > > > A matches B at loci for 5cM > > > > A matches C at loci for 5cM > > > > B matches C at unknown loci for 1cM > > > > > > > > We could even replace the 5cM with a longer 7cM segment. Is that more > likely > > to be? Yes. Is it 100% proven? No. > > > > > > > > What we're missing here is phased genotyped data, as mentioned in this > blog > > post: > > > http://ourpuzzlingpast.com/geneblog/2015/01/31/chromosome-pile-ups-in-geneti > > c-genealogy-examples-from-23andme-and-ftdna/ > > > > > > > > > > > > Lastly, what I don't want to express or start again is a discussion about > > the need for a better tool or how grateful we are to have at least this > one > > (compared to no tool at Ancestry). That's discussed to death already. > > > > > > > > Andreas (WEST) born BASSO > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GENEALOGY-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GENEALOGY-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Tim, thanks for taking the time to answer. What I meant is that just using the ICW tool with your two matches B and C (without asking B and C where they match each other) is not triangulation to me. It might be semantics but to me it's more. Given that the ICW that FTDNA is showing between B and C can only be 1cM or 2cM large, even IF it's on the same loci (which is unknown without asking one of them AND getting that information) does it mean it's 100% a triangulated group → meaning it comes from a common ancestor? For me it's not. But that's what is stated in that WikiTree answer and also partially in the documentation of the ADSA tool. I quote from here: https://www.dnagedcom.com/adsa/adsamanual.html.php "The Autosomal DNA Segment Analyzer (ADSA) is a tool that takes your data from Family Tree DNA or GEDMATCH and constructs tables that include match and segment information as well as a visual graph of overlapping segments, juxtaposed with a customized, color-coded In-Common-With (ICW) matrix that will permit you to triangulate matching segments without having to look in multiple spreadsheets or on different web pages." **"will permit you to triangulate matching segments"!!!!** It uses both ICE and triangulate in the same sentence, giving the impression that it's possible to do with FTDNA's data (please note I'm not saying the ADSA tool can't do it, it's not possible with the data it receives as input). It's IMO (unless you get that B and C match data as mentioned, which can't be downloaded and imported in the ADSA tool BTW) not possible. So I think this is highly misleading and supports the confusion when people assume that: ICW = triangulation which is unfortunately not true. There is a likelihood (eg A, B and C all match at the same loci with 20+cM matches between each other - surely coming from a common ancestor) but like I mention given that FTDNA shows 1cM matches as ICW (which was my original question) I think we all agree that the jury is still out if this is indeed an ancestral segment verified by triangulation (see the following example): A matches B at loci for 5cM A matches C at loci for 5cM B matches C at **unknown** loci for 1cM We could even replace the 5cM with a longer 7cM segment. Is that more likely to be? Yes. Is it 100% proven? No. What we're missing here is phased genotyped data, as mentioned in this blog post: http://ourpuzzlingpast.com/geneblog/2015/01/31/chromosome-pile-ups-in- genetic-genealogy-examples-from-23andme-and-ftdna/ Lastly, what I don't want to express or start again is a discussion about the need for a better tool or how grateful we are to have at least this one (compared to no tool at Ancestry). That's discussed to death already. Andreas (WEST) born BASSO My ancestors: [http://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/Basso-Family- Tree-23](http://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/Basso-Family-Tree-23) "Tim Janzen via" <genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Dear Andreas, > You might want to restate in different words what you are asking that > someone confirm since I am having difficulty understanding what your > question is. The ICW tool that Family Tree DNA provides is better than > nothing, but it leaves a lot to be desired. The tool is particularly not > all that helpful for people who come from endogamous populations such as > Mennonites or Jews because such groups generally share DNA segments with > most other people with that ancestry. If a person doesn't come from an > endogamous population, then you can usually assume that if two of your > matches share a HIR with you in the same region of a specific chromosome and > share DNA in common with each other using the ICW tool then they will be > sharing the same DNA segment. A better way is to e-mail one or both of the > matches and ask them to check their match list to see if the other person > shares the same HIR that you share with them. I actually don't like to use > Family Finder's ICW tool all that often. I prefer to download all of my > parents' aggregate matching segment data and sort the matches based on > whether or not I also share the same segment with the matches that my > parents share with the matches. I find this to be a nice clean way to > separate matches into those who are matching my parents on one chromosome > and those who are matching my parents on the opposite chromosome. This > allows me to form what will generally be triangulated groups (at least for > the HIRs that are over 12 to 15 cMs) without needing to go through the > hassle of asking my matches on the same regions of the chromosome whether or > not they match each other. I don't like to use HIRs under about 4 cMs as a > general rule because the probability that any given HIR under 4 cMs is IBS > is relatively high. > Sincerely, > Tim Janzen > > -----Original Message----- > From: genealogy-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:genealogy-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Andreas West via > Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2015 9:40 PM > To: DNA Genealogy Mailing List > Subject: [DNA] Are FTDNA's 1cM matches shown in ICW as well? > > Hi everyone, > > > was just stumbling across a post on WikiTree forum on DNAGedcom being able > to triangulate data from GEDmatch and FTDNA. Leaving GEDmatch out for this > thread (I think the OP refers to the paid tier 1 option which gives access > to the top > 200 triangulated matches and downloading that screen result - please correct > me if there is another way) I want to question that remark about FTDNA. > > My assumption is that ICW (which isn't triangulation, can't repeat that > often enough as there are still people out there who don't understand the > difference or that there is one to start with) means that it includes all > those 1cM matches (and larger) that FTDNA reports as a minimum criteria. > > Can someone confirm this? > > That makes the ICW tool even more worrisome if it's true as it's not even > clear if a triangulated segment of only 1cM (or 2cM for that matter) is > indeed an ancestral segment, triangulation or not (I refer to various > discussions we had here and on other email lists about this - no need to > start that discussion again until we have more proof). > > Andreas (WEST) born BASSO > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GENEALOGY-DNA- > request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the > subject and the body of the message

Hi everyone, was just stumbling across a post on WikiTree forum on DNAGedcom being able to triangulate data from GEDmatch and FTDNA. Leaving GEDmatch out for this thread (I think the OP refers to the paid tier 1 option which gives access to the top 200 triangulated matches and downloading that screen result - please correct me if there is another way) I want to question that remark about FTDNA. My assumption is that ICW (which isn't triangulation, can't repeat that often enough as there are still people out there who don't understand the difference or that there is one to start with) means that it includes all those 1cM matches (and larger) that FTDNA reports as a minimum criteria. Can someone confirm this? That makes the ICW tool even more worrisome if it's true as it's not even clear if a triangulated segment of only 1cM (or 2cM for that matter) is indeed an ancestral segment, triangulation or not (I refer to various discussions we had here and on other email lists about this - no need to start that discussion again until we have more proof). Andreas (WEST) born BASSO My ancestors: [http://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/Basso-Family- Tree-23](http://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/Basso-Family-Tree-23)

I've always mentally thought about the "i" SNPs as "internal" catalog numbers, but I'm not positive if I made that up or actually noticed someone from 23andMe used that word :) As you probably noticed, AncestryDNA doesn't always present alleles in alphabetical order. You will find instances of TC and CT, for example. Illumina's base-calling software has something called a "top strand" and a "bottom strand" (not the same thing as forward/reverse or plus/minus). 23andMe does some post-processing to put alleles in alphabetical order. Anyway, did you also look for TA? SNPs where the alternative alleles are also complementary base pairs in the double helix ( A <-> T and C <-> G) are tricky to handle. 23andMe may have developed custom probes to identify some of those. I've also noticed that AncestryDNA and FTDNA do not report any indels (the I and D alleles you asked about). Tim, this may not be worth the effort to analyze, but I'm curious to know if the "i" variants with rs numbers at FTDNA may be cases where 23andMe put some additional probes on the chip for a particular locus. If you have a list handy, I could explore that a bit. Ann Turner Ann Turner On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 11:41 PM, Tim Janzen via <genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com > wrote: > Dear David, > DD means a deletion and II means an insertion. The "i" SNPs in the > 23andMe files are those that don't have rs numbers assigned to them by > 23andMe. It is possible that "i" stands for Illumina, but I am not certain > about that. It is also possible that it stands for "inserted", possibly > because 23andMe inserted these SNPs onto the SNP chip because they were of > special interest to 23andMe. Someone at 23andMe would know the answer to > this question. > It is interesting that AncestryDNA files don't have SNPs with the > allele values AT. I don't have a definite answer for that. I checked my > mom's file for the SNPs that have the allele values AT in 23andMe and found > a total of 322 of these SNPs. I then checked for these SNPs in my mom's > AncestryDNA file and I couldn't find any of those SNPs in my mom's > AncestryDNA file. My suspicion is that Ancestry.com has dropped all SNPs > from their dataset with the values AT because they think that the results > may be erroneous. > Sincerely, > Tim Janzen > > -----Original Message----- > From: genealogy-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:genealogy-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of David Schroeder > via > Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2015 9:33 PM > To: genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com > Subject: [DNA] My Raw Data Files - Comparison 23andme vs AncestryDNA > > I have tested at both 23andme (V3) and AncestryDNA. I have written a > program > to add the raw data file information into a MySQL database, creating > separate tables for my 23andme results and my AncestryDNA. > > I am trying to understand some things. > > I can understand all the A, C, G, T lettering. The single letters represent > SNPs on my Y and X chromosomes. I also understand that '--' is a no call. > What are 'DD' and 'II'? > > > I also found that AncestryDNA had no 'AT' SNPs for me, but 23andme had 611: > > Can anyone explain why I have no 'AT' SNP pairs in my AncestryDNA raw data > file? I verified this by browsing my Ancestry Raw data file. I had every > other SNP pair represented. > > The final question is about RSIDs. What are the ones that begin with 'i' in > my 23andme raw data file? I have 10,709 RSIDs that begin with 'i-----'. > > David > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GENEALOGY-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Dear David, I should also mention that 2 years ago I did an analysis of the i SNPs at 23andMe. Below is that analysis: "453,854 atDNA SNPs in 23andMe v4 data are also found in 23andMe v2 data in a 2009 download. Of these SNPs, 419 are i SNPs. 453,357 atDNA SNPs in 23andMe v4 data that are also found in 23andMe v2 data in a fresh download. Of these SNPs, 546 are i SNPs. 509,630 atDNA SNPs in 23andMe v4 data that are also found in 23andMe v3 data in a fresh download. Of these SNPs, 6153 are i SNPs. 304,864 atDNA SNPs in 23andMe v4 data that have rs numbers are also found in Family Finder in a fresh download. I then checked the 41,855 i atDNA SNPs in 23andMe v4 data and checked for matching positions in the Family Finder data. I found that there were 2556 i atDNA SNPs in 23andMe v4 data that had matching positions in the Family Finder data." Therefore 23andMe has chosen to name at least 2556 SNPs that have rs numbers as i SNPs for whatever reason. See http://www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com/2013/12/23andme-releases-sample-of-the ir-new-v4.html for more background on my analysis. Sincerely, Tim Janzen -----Original Message----- From: genealogy-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:genealogy-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of David Schroeder via Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2015 9:33 PM To: genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com Subject: [DNA] My Raw Data Files - Comparison 23andme vs AncestryDNA I have tested at both 23andme (V3) and AncestryDNA. I have written a program to add the raw data file information into a MySQL database, creating separate tables for my 23andme results and my AncestryDNA. I am trying to understand some things. I can understand all the A, C, G, T lettering. The single letters represent SNPs on my Y and X chromosomes. I also understand that '--' is a no call. What are 'DD' and 'II'? I also found that AncestryDNA had no 'AT' SNPs for me, but 23andme had 611: Can anyone explain why I have no 'AT' SNP pairs in my AncestryDNA raw data file? I verified this by browsing my Ancestry Raw data file. I had every other SNP pair represented. The final question is about RSIDs. What are the ones that begin with 'i' in my 23andme raw data file? I have 10,709 RSIDs that begin with 'i-----'. David

Dear Andreas, I agree with you that simply having your matches match each other using the ICW tool doesn't necessarily mean that they triangulate. I agree with you that most of the small 1 and 2 cMs HIRs are IBS and therefore even if people match on them then this doesn't mean that this represents a DNA segment that was passed down from a shared ancestor. I disagree with the DNAGEDCOM statement about use of the ICW data. The data will likely triangulate most of the time, but certainly not 100% of the time, particularly for people who come from endogamous populations. I have suggested to Family Tree DNA that they should allow their customers to be able to compare their matches to each other like we can in 23andMe with the Family Inheritance: Advanced tool, but so far FTDNA has chosen not to allow that feature. I wish that they would at least create it as an opt in feature. I have advocated with both 23andMe and Family Tree DNA for at least 4 years to generate matches based on family phased data, but so far neither company has invested the time and effort to do that. Ancestry.com generates phased data, but the data is not 100% accurate because they don't use family data to generate phased data. As you mentioned, the lack of a chromosome browser at Ancestry. com dramatically reduces the utility of the AncestryDNA test. GEDmatch will generate phased data for you and will allow you to upload your own phased data if you would like to do that. One of the main reasons that GEDmatch is so popular is because it provides the serious autosomal genetic genealogist with the tools they need to run the kinds of comparisons they need to run. Sincerely, Tim Janzen From: Andreas West [mailto:ahnen@awest.de] Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2015 11:27 PM To: Tim Janzen; genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com Cc: genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DNA] Are FTDNA's 1cM matches shown in ICW as well? Hi Tim, thanks for taking the time to answer. What I meant is that just using the ICW tool with your two matches B and C (without asking B and C where they match each other) is not triangulation to me. It might be semantics but to me it's more. Given that the ICW that FTDNA is showing between B and C can only be 1cM or 2cM large, even IF it's on the same loci (which is unknown without asking one of them AND getting that information) does it mean it's 100% a triangulated group → meaning it comes from a common ancestor? For me it's not. But that's what is stated in that WikiTree answer and also partially in the documentation of the ADSA tool. I quote from here: https://www.dnagedcom.com/adsa/adsamanual.html.php "The Autosomal DNA Segment Analyzer (ADSA) is a tool that takes your data from Family Tree DNA or GEDMATCH and constructs tables that include match and segment information as well as a visual graph of overlapping segments, juxtaposed with a customized, color-coded In-Common-With (ICW) matrix that will permit you to triangulate matching segments without having to look in multiple spreadsheets or on different web pages." "will permit you to triangulate matching segments"!!!! It uses both ICE and triangulate in the same sentence, giving the impression that it's possible to do with FTDNA's data (please note I'm not saying the ADSA tool can't do it, it's not possible with the data it receives as input). It's IMO (unless you get that B and C match data as mentioned, which can't be downloaded and imported in the ADSA tool BTW) not possible. So I think this is highly misleading and supports the confusion when people assume that: ICW = triangulation which is unfortunately not true. There is a likelihood (eg A, B and C all match at the same loci with 20+cM matches between each other - surely coming from a common ancestor) but like I mention given that FTDNA shows 1cM matches as ICW (which was my original question) I think we all agree that the jury is still out if this is indeed an ancestral segment verified by triangulation (see the following example): A matches B at loci for 5cM A matches C at loci for 5cM B matches C at unknown loci for 1cM We could even replace the 5cM with a longer 7cM segment. Is that more likely to be? Yes. Is it 100% proven? No. What we're missing here is phased genotyped data, as mentioned in this blog post: http://ourpuzzlingpast.com/geneblog/2015/01/31/chromosome-pile-ups-in-geneti c-genealogy-examples-from-23andme-and-ftdna/ Lastly, what I don't want to express or start again is a discussion about the need for a better tool or how grateful we are to have at least this one (compared to no tool at Ancestry). That's discussed to death already. Andreas (WEST) born BASSO

Dear David, DD means a deletion and II means an insertion. The "i" SNPs in the 23andMe files are those that don't have rs numbers assigned to them by 23andMe. It is possible that "i" stands for Illumina, but I am not certain about that. It is also possible that it stands for "inserted", possibly because 23andMe inserted these SNPs onto the SNP chip because they were of special interest to 23andMe. Someone at 23andMe would know the answer to this question. It is interesting that AncestryDNA files don't have SNPs with the allele values AT. I don't have a definite answer for that. I checked my mom's file for the SNPs that have the allele values AT in 23andMe and found a total of 322 of these SNPs. I then checked for these SNPs in my mom's AncestryDNA file and I couldn't find any of those SNPs in my mom's AncestryDNA file. My suspicion is that Ancestry.com has dropped all SNPs from their dataset with the values AT because they think that the results may be erroneous. Sincerely, Tim Janzen -----Original Message----- From: genealogy-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:genealogy-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of David Schroeder via Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2015 9:33 PM To: genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com Subject: [DNA] My Raw Data Files - Comparison 23andme vs AncestryDNA I have tested at both 23andme (V3) and AncestryDNA. I have written a program to add the raw data file information into a MySQL database, creating separate tables for my 23andme results and my AncestryDNA. I am trying to understand some things. I can understand all the A, C, G, T lettering. The single letters represent SNPs on my Y and X chromosomes. I also understand that '--' is a no call. What are 'DD' and 'II'? I also found that AncestryDNA had no 'AT' SNPs for me, but 23andme had 611: Can anyone explain why I have no 'AT' SNP pairs in my AncestryDNA raw data file? I verified this by browsing my Ancestry Raw data file. I had every other SNP pair represented. The final question is about RSIDs. What are the ones that begin with 'i' in my 23andme raw data file? I have 10,709 RSIDs that begin with 'i-----'. David

I have tested at both 23andme (V3) and AncestryDNA. I have written a program to add the raw data file information into a MySQL database, creating separate tables for my 23andme results and my AncestryDNA. I am trying to understand some things. First, some of the terminology that 23andme uses in its raw data file. Here is a list of distinct SNP pairs: +------+ | PAIR | +------+ | -- | | A | | AA | | AC | | AG | | AT | | C | | CC | | CG | | CT | | D | | DD | | DI | | G | | GG | | GT | | I | | II | | T | | TT | +------+ I can understand all the A, C, G, T lettering. The single letters represent SNPs on my Y and X chromosomes. I also understand that '--' is a no call. What are 'DD' and 'II'? I also found that AncestryDNA had no 'AT' SNPs for me, but 23andme had 611: mysql> select COUNT(*) from ANC WHERE PAIR = 'AT' ORDER BY PAIR; ----------+ COUNT(*) | ----------+ 0 | ----------+ row in set (0.07 sec) mysql> select COUNT(*) from 23andme WHERE PAIR = 'AT' ORDER BY PAIR; ----------+ COUNT(*) | ----------+ 611 | ----------+ Can anyone explain why I have no 'AT' SNP pairs in my AncestryDNA raw data file? I verified this by browsing my Ancestry Raw data file. I had every other SNP pair represented. The final question is about RSIDs. What are the ones that begin with 'i' in my 23andme raw data file? I have 10,709 RSIDs that begin with 'i-----'. David

Dear Andreas, You might want to restate in different words what you are asking that someone confirm since I am having difficulty understanding what your question is. The ICW tool that Family Tree DNA provides is better than nothing, but it leaves a lot to be desired. The tool is particularly not all that helpful for people who come from endogamous populations such as Mennonites or Jews because such groups generally share DNA segments with most other people with that ancestry. If a person doesn't come from an endogamous population, then you can usually assume that if two of your matches share a HIR with you in the same region of a specific chromosome and share DNA in common with each other using the ICW tool then they will be sharing the same DNA segment. A better way is to e-mail one or both of the matches and ask them to check their match list to see if the other person shares the same HIR that you share with them. I actually don't like to use Family Finder's ICW tool all that often. I prefer to download all of my parents' aggregate matching segment data and sort the matches based on whether or not I also share the same segment with the matches that my parents share with the matches. I find this to be a nice clean way to separate matches into those who are matching my parents on one chromosome and those who are matching my parents on the opposite chromosome. This allows me to form what will generally be triangulated groups (at least for the HIRs that are over 12 to 15 cMs) without needing to go through the hassle of asking my matches on the same regions of the chromosome whether or not they match each other. I don't like to use HIRs under about 4 cMs as a general rule because the probability that any given HIR under 4 cMs is IBS is relatively high. Sincerely, Tim Janzen -----Original Message----- From: genealogy-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:genealogy-dna-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Andreas West via Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2015 9:40 PM To: DNA Genealogy Mailing List Subject: [DNA] Are FTDNA's 1cM matches shown in ICW as well? Hi everyone, was just stumbling across a post on WikiTree forum on DNAGedcom being able to triangulate data from GEDmatch and FTDNA. Leaving GEDmatch out for this thread (I think the OP refers to the paid tier 1 option which gives access to the top 200 triangulated matches and downloading that screen result - please correct me if there is another way) I want to question that remark about FTDNA. My assumption is that ICW (which isn't triangulation, can't repeat that often enough as there are still people out there who don't understand the difference or that there is one to start with) means that it includes all those 1cM matches (and larger) that FTDNA reports as a minimum criteria. Can someone confirm this? That makes the ICW tool even more worrisome if it's true as it's not even clear if a triangulated segment of only 1cM (or 2cM for that matter) is indeed an ancestral segment, triangulation or not (I refer to various discussions we had here and on other email lists about this - no need to start that discussion again until we have more proof). Andreas (WEST) born BASSO

Mardon > Do you still help FTDNA customers submit mtDNA full genome sequences to GenBank? Yes, almost all the FTDNA submissions are done using my D-I-Y program, or by contacting me directly. Details are on my website at: http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/Submission.htm Ian --------------- On 12/12/2015 17:12, Mardon via wrote: > Ian, > > I didn't mean to hijack your previous thread. Sorry. I started this new > thread as a short follow-up. > > Thanks for letting me know that Genbank is no longer accepting the genome's > donor as co-author. That's too bad. When I submitted my mtDNA genome > several years ago, GenBank exchanged several emails with me to make > absolutely certain that I knew what I was doing by being listed as a > co-author. They were extremely cautious even then. > > I wonder if they had some trouble over privacy issues that caused them to > change their mind entirely about allowing donors to be co-authors? > > And thanks again for helping me back then to upload my data to GenBank. > Putting the co-author issue aside, do you still help FTDNA customers submit > mtDNA full genome sequences to GenBank? > > Mardon

The problem with this study, and with similar previous studies by Bradley and McEvoy pertaining to Ireland, is that they are only looking at 17 markers. In the case of the McEvoy, Simms and Bradley paper of 2008, /"Genetic Investigation of the Patrilineal Kinship Structure of Early Medieval Ireland"/, McEvoy et al, AJPA, 2008, it led the authors to the incorrect conclusion that there was no STR signature defining the Dal Cais (Irish Type III). I refuted their assertion in my paper, "/A Set of Distinctive Marker Values Defines a Y-STR Signature for Gaelic Dalcassian Families/", Wright D.M., JoGG 5(1):1-7, 2009 http://jogg.info/51/files/Wright.pdf In these days of the ready availability of 111 marker haplotypes it is disappointing to see studies reverting to examining only 17 markers. *Dennis Wright* // On 12/12/2015 11:02 AM, steven perkins via wrote: > Some nice charts and tables in this brief article. Table 3 shows a > comparison of surname analysis for Spain to Britain and Ireland. > > http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n1/pdf/ejhg201575a.pdf > > European Journal of Human Genetics (2016) 24, 120–128; > doi:10.1038/ejhg.2015.75; published online 22 April 2015 > > Conrado Martinez-Cadenas1,2, Alejandro Blanco-Verea3, Barbara Hernando1, > George BJ Busby2,4, Maria Brion3, Angel Carracedo3,5,6, Antonio Salas6 and > Cristian Capelli2 > > 1Department of Medicine, Jaume I University of Castellon, Castellon, Spain > 2Human Evolutionary Genetics Group, Department of Zoology, University of > Oxford, Oxford, UK > 3Instituto de Investigación Sanitaria de Santiago de Compostela, Grupo de > Medicina Xenómica, Complexo Hospitalario Universitario de Santiago de > Compostela, Santiago de Compostela, Spain > 4Wellcome Trust Centre for Human Genetics, Roosevelt Drive, Oxford, UK > 5Center of Excellence in Genomic Medicine Research, King Abdulaziz > University, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia > 6Unidade de Xenética, Departamento de Anatomía Patolóxica e Ciencias > Forenses, Instituto de Ciencias Forenses, Facultade de Medicina, > Universidade de Santiago de Compostela, Santiago de Compostela, Spain > > Correspondence: Dr C Capelli, Department of Zoology, University of Oxford, > The Tinbergen Building, South Parks Road, Oxford OX1 3PS, UK. Tel: +44 1865 > 271261; Fax: +44 1865 310447; E-mail:cristian.capelli@zoo.ox.ac.uk > > Received 15 September 2014; Revised 28 February 2015; Accepted 17 March 2015 > Advance online publication 22 April 2015 > > Top > ​ ​ > of page > > Abstract > > In most societies, surnames are passed down from fathers to sons, just like > the Y chromosome. It follows that, theoretically, men sharing the same > surnames would also be expected to share related Y chromosomes. Previous > investigations have explored such relationships, but so far, the only > detailed studies that have been conducted are on samples from the British > Isles. > > In order to provide additional insights into the correlation between > surnames and Y chromosomes, we focused on the Spanish population by > analysing Y chromosomes from 2121 male volunteers representing 37 surnames. > The results suggest that the degree of coancestry within Spanish surnames > is highly dependent on surname frequency, in overall agreement with British > but not Irish surname studies. > > Furthermore, a reanalysis of comparative data for all three populations > showed that Irish surnames have much greater and older surname descent > clusters than Spanish and British ones, suggesting that Irish surnames may > have considerably earlier origins than Spanish or British ones. > > Overall, despite closer geographical ties between Ireland and Britain, our > analysis points to substantial similarities in surname origin and > development between Britain and Spain, while possibly hinting at unique > demographic or social events shaping Irish surname foundation and > development. > >

GenBank asks that a representative of the testing laboratory is listed with each submission. So for FTDNA it is Bennett Greenspan. Ian ------------------- On 12/12/2015 10:42, Franklin Genetics wrote: > Why would Bennett be listed at all, he's not related to every test > participant!?! > > > Margo > > > > GenBank is proving very difficult on this point. > > So it looks as if the ability to be a co-author is no longer possible. > > > > Ian > > ------------------------- > >> I would say people don't have enough information! > >> Margo > >> > >> Ian, > >> > >> I understand that going 'public' with one's entire mtDNA genome > isn't for > >> everyone but I'm surprised that there aren't more FTDNA customers > who choose > >> to do so. As you are aware, submitters can list their names as a > >> 'co-author' along with Bennett Greenspan for their own mtDNA genome > >> submission. I've done that for mine. It's Accession No. HM034770. I > >> wonder if the reason is that people don't know they can do this? > >> > >> Mardon

Ian, I didn't mean to hijack your previous thread. Sorry. I started this new thread as a short follow-up. Thanks for letting me know that Genbank is no longer accepting the genome's donor as co-author. That's too bad. When I submitted my mtDNA genome several years ago, GenBank exchanged several emails with me to make absolutely certain that I knew what I was doing by being listed as a co-author. They were extremely cautious even then. I wonder if they had some trouble over privacy issues that caused them to change their mind entirely about allowing donors to be co-authors? And thanks again for helping me back then to upload my data to GenBank. Putting the co-author issue aside, do you still help FTDNA customers submit mtDNA full genome sequences to GenBank? Mardon

List A new study gives 55 mtDNA sequences from Haplogroup HV, and its subgroups. Most of the sequences come from Italy. As usual I have added the sequences to my 'Checker' program to ensure accuracy of transcription. Note the odd looking 'T3109-' and '3107.1A' - that may well be spurious. The sequences accompany the paper: PLoS One. 2015 Dec 7;10(12) 'Fine Dissection of Human Mitochondrial DNA Haplogroup HV Lineages Reveals Paleolithic Signatures from European Glacial Refugia' De Fanti S, et al. a free dwonload on: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0144391 Ian www.ianlogan.co.uk ---------- KP340126(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV 09-DEC-2015 T152C A263G A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G C7028T A8860G C10556T A15326G A16220G C16234T C16296T T16362C T16519C KP340127(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV-T16311C 09-DEC-2015 A263G T310C A750G A1438G A2706G T4314A A4769G G5147A C7028T A8860G A15326G T16311C KP340128(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV-T16311C 09-DEC-2015 A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G G1503A A2706G T3335C A4769G C7028T A8860G C10331T A15326G C16239T T16311C KP340129(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV-T16311C 09-DEC-2015 A263G T310C A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G C7028T A8860G G9801A C10205T C10920T C13650T A15326G T15514C T16311C KP340130(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV18 09-DEC-2015 A263G A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G T6632C C7028T A8860G G9039A A15326G T16189C A16316G T16519C KP340131(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV-T16311C 09-DEC-2015 A263G A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G C7028T A8860G G11176A A15326G T16311C KP340132(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV 09-DEC-2015 T195C A263G A750G A1438G C2280T A2706G A4769G T5782C C7028T A8860G A8862T T13635C A15326G KP340133(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV 09-DEC-2015 T152C T195C A263G A750G A1438G T1452C A2706G A4769G T4907C G5471A C7028T A8860G A15326G C16294T T16356C KP340134(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV-T16311C 09-DEC-2015 A263G 309.1C 309.2C 315.1C C332A A750G A1438G T2667C A2706G A4769G C7028T A8860G A15326G T16311C KP340135(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV-T16311C 09-DEC-2015 A263G C522- A523- A750G A1438G C1601T A2706G A4769G C7028T T8143C A8860G G12940A A15326G T15530C T16311C KP340136(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV-T16311C 09-DEC-2015 A263G T310C A750G A1438G A1746G A2706G A4769G C5263T C7028T A8860G A15326G T16092C T16298C T16311C KP340137(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV0-T195C 09-DEC-2015 T72C T195C A263G A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G T6392C C7028T A8860G G13145A A15326G T16298C T16311C KP340138(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV0g 09-DEC-2015 T72C A263G T310C A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G C7028T T8843C A8860G A12425G A15326G T16298C KP340139(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV0-T195C 09-DEC-2015 T72C C150T T195C A263G A750G A1438G A2706G T4688C A4769G C7028T T7684C A7930G A8860G C13503T A15326G C16169T T16298C KP340140(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV0-T195C 09-DEC-2015 T72C A93G T195C A263G T310C C518T A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G C7028T A8860G G13804A A14582G A15326G T16298C KP340141(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV0g 09-DEC-2015 T72C A263G C522- A523- A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G C7028T A8860G A10039G A12425G A15326G A15924G T16298C KP340142(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV0-T195C 09-DEC-2015 T72C T195C A263G A750G A1438G C1706T A2706G A4769G C7028T A8860G A15326G C16111T T16298C T16519C KP340143(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV0a 09-DEC-2015 T72C A263G C295T T480C A750G A1438G A2706G T3540C A4769G C7028T A8860G G11150A A15326G C15904T T16298C KP340144(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV0b 09-DEC-2015 T72C A93G T195C C198T A263G C518T A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G C7028T A8860G A14582G A15326G G16129A T16298C KP340145(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV0d 09-DEC-2015 T72C T195C A263G A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G C7028T A8860G G15110A A15326G T16298C KP340146(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV0e 09-DEC-2015 T72C T195C C198T A263G A750G A1438G A2706G A3221G A4769G C7028T A8860G T10609C A15326G T15454C T16298C T16311C KP340147(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV0e 09-DEC-2015 T72C T195C A263G A750G A1438G A2706G A3221G A4769G C7028T A8347G A8860G T10609C A15326G T15454C T16298C T16311C KP340148(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV0e 09-DEC-2015 T72C T195C A263G A750G A1438G A2706G T3335C A4769G C7028T A8860G T10609C A15326G T15454C T16298C T16311C KP340149(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV0e 09-DEC-2015 T72C G143A T195C A263G A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G C7028T T8260C A8860G G9525A T10609C A15326G T15454C A16051G T16298C T16311C KP340150(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV0e 09-DEC-2015 T72C T195C A263G A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G C7028T A8860G T10609C A15326G T15454C T16298C T16311C T16519C KP340151(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV 09-DEC-2015 T195C A263G A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G T5004C T6776C C7028T A8014G A8860G C15324T A15326G T16298C KP340152(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV13 09-DEC-2015 A263G T310C A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G G5460A C7028T A8860G T12879C A15326G G16129A T16189C T16357C KP340153(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV1a1 09-DEC-2015 C150T A257G A263G A750G A1438G A2706G G3531A A4227G A4769G C7028T A8014T T8277C A8860G T9725C A15218G A15326G G15927A C16067T C16355T T16519C KP340154(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV1a1a 09-DEC-2015 A93G C150T A263G A750G A1438G A2706G G2831A A4227G A4769G A6779G C7028T A8014T T8277C T8279C A8860G G9554A C13650T C15004T A15218G A15326G G15927A C16067T C16355T KP340155(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV1e 09-DEC-2015 A263G A750G A1438G A2706G T3906C A4769G T5483C T6956C C7028T A8014T A8860G T9018C A15218G A15326G C16067T G16129A C16242T KP340156(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV1e 09-DEC-2015 T152C A263G T310C A750G A1438G G2403A A2706G A2851G T3906C A4769G A6002G C7028T A8014T A8860G A15218G A15326G C16067T G16129A KP340157(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV1c 09-DEC-2015 A263G A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G C7028T A8014T A8860G C13713A A13748G A13933G A15218G A15326G C16067T T16093C T16311C KP340158(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV2 09-DEC-2015 A73G T152C T195C A263G T310C A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G A5153G C6563T C7028T T7193C T7861C A8860G A9336G T11935C C12061T G14258A A15326G C16167T C16184A T16217C KP340159(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV2 09-DEC-2015 A73G T152C T195C A263G A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G A5153G C6563T C7028T T7193C T7861C A8860G A9336G T11935C C12061T G14258A A15326G C16167T C16184A T16217C KP340160(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV2 09-DEC-2015 T72C A73G T152C T195C A263G C522- A523- C739T A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G C7028T T7193C T8277G A8691G A8860G A9336G T11935C C12061T A15326G T16189C T16217C T16519C KP340161(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV4d 09-DEC-2015 A263G A390G A750G A1438G T2392C A2706G A4769G C7028T T7094C A8860G A15326G T15514C C16192A KP340162(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV4d 09-DEC-2015 A263G 309.1C 309.2C 315.1C A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G C7028T T7094C A8860G T10790C A11129T A11290T A15326G T15514C C16192A T16519C KP340163(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV4 09-DEC-2015 T152C A263G A750G A1438G A2220C A2706G A4769G C7028T T7094C A8860G C10356T A13866G T14470C T15071C A15326G KP340164(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV4 09-DEC-2015 T146C A263G T310C G709A A750G A1438G A1530G A2706G A4769G C7028T T7094C A8860G C9278T G12952A A15326G C16069T C16355T KP340165(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV4d 09-DEC-2015 A263G 309.1C 315.1C T489C A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G T5902C C7028T T7094C A8860G T11087C A15326G T15514C A15924G C16192A T16519C KP340166(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV4d 09-DEC-2015 A263G T310C C524A A750G A1438G A2706G 3107.1A A4769G C7028T T7094C T7701C A8860G A15326G T15514C C16192A C16295T T16519C KP340167(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV4a1 09-DEC-2015 T152C A263G 309.1C 315.1C A750G A1438G A2706G C3254T A4769G C7028T T7094C T8260C A8860G G11440A A12397G A12781G C13680T A15326G C16221T T16519C KP340168(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV6 09-DEC-2015 G143A A263G T593C A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G C7028T A8860G A15326G T16172C T16311C KP340169(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV 09-DEC-2015 A263G 309.1C 309.2C 315.1C A385G G499A A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G C7028T A8842G A8860G C14263T G15172A G15217A A15326G C16327A KP340170(Iran) De Fanti Haplogroup HV4a1 09-DEC-2015 T152C A263G 309.1C 315.1C A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G T6680C C7028T T7094C T8260C G8648A A8860G G11440A C13680T A15326G C16147T C16221T T16519C KP340171(Czech) De Fanti Haplogroup HV4 09-DEC-2015 A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G C7028T T7094C A8860G A9355G A15326G KP340172(Darginian) De Fanti Haplogroup HV4b 09-DEC-2015 G207A A263G 315.1C G709A A750G A1438G C1715T A2706G A4769G C7028T T7094C T7278C T8618C A8860G A15326G G15777A C15910T C16069T C16354T KP340173(Moldova) De Fanti Haplogroup HV4c 09-DEC-2015 A263G 309.1C 315.1C A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G C7028T T7094C A8860G C10356T T11722C C13389T T13656C A15326G C16176T T16519C KP340174(Bosnia) De Fanti Haplogroup HV4a1 09-DEC-2015 T152C A263G 309.1C A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G C7028T T7094C T8260C A8860G T10493C G11440A C13680T A15326G C16221T T16519C KP340175(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV 09-DEC-2015 T146C A263G 309.1C 309.2C 315.1C A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G G5460A C7028T A8348G A8860G A15326G KP340176(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV1b 09-DEC-2015 A263G 309.1C 315.1C A750G A1438G A2706G T2903C T3109- T3398C A4769G C7028T A8014T G8251A G8545A A8860G G10801A A12373G T12696C C13287T G14207A A15218G A15326G C16067T C16291T T16519C KP340177(Italy) De Fanti Haplogroup HV15 09-DEC-2015 A93G A263G 309.1C 315.1C A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G G5746A C7028T A8842T A8860G T10007C A15326G C16187T T16311C KP340178(Assyrian) De Fanti Haplogroup HV4a2 09-DEC-2015 T152C A263G 309.1C 315.1C A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G C7028T T7094C G7805A A8860G A15326G G16129A C16287T T16311C KP340179(Assyrian) De Fanti Haplogroup HV4a2 09-DEC-2015 A263G 309.1C 315.1C A750G A1438G A2706G A4769G C7028T T7094C G7805A A8860G A15326G G16129A C16287T T16311C KP340180(Greece) De Fanti Haplogroup HV4b 09-DEC-2015 A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G C1715T A2706G A4769G C7028T T7094C A8860G G9182A C13735A A15326G T15943C C16069T

Margo GenBank is proving very difficult on this point. So it looks as if the ability to be a co-author is no longer possible. Ian ------------------------- > I would say people don't have enough information! > Margo > > > Ian, > > I understand that going 'public' with one's entire mtDNA genome isn't for > everyone but I'm surprised that there aren't more FTDNA customers who choose > to do so. As you are aware, submitters can list their names as a > 'co-author' along with Bennett Greenspan for their own mtDNA genome > submission. I've done that for mine. It's Accession No. HM034770. I > wonder if the reason is that people don't know they can do this? > > Mardon > (erbland@outlook.com) > >

Why would Bennett be listed at all, he's not related to every test participant!?! On Saturday, December 12, 2015, Ian Logan via <genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Margo > > GenBank is proving very difficult on this point. > So it looks as if the ability to be a co-author is no longer possible. > > Ian > ------------------------- >> I would say people don't have enough information! >> Margo >> >> >> Ian, >> >> I understand that going 'public' with one's entire mtDNA genome isn't for >> everyone but I'm surprised that there aren't more FTDNA customers who choose >> to do so. As you are aware, submitters can list their names as a >> 'co-author' along with Bennett Greenspan for their own mtDNA genome >> submission. I've done that for mine. It's Accession No. HM034770. I >> wonder if the reason is that people don't know they can do this? >> >> Mardon >> (erbland@outlook.com) >> >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GENEALOGY-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Lisa R Franklin RN,BSN Admin, Franklin Y DNA Project http://trackingyourroots.com/FranklinGenetics/ FranklinGenetics@gmail.com http://trackingyourroots.com/DNA (How To presentation (23andme), tips, & helps. *2**3**&**m**e**: **The World's Largest database & coincidentally the ONLY one with all the tools you need for genealogy and DNA!--* http://refer.23andme.com/v2/share/6158544791499756901/4672616e6b6c696e47656e657469637340676d61696c2e636f6d BEST GENETIC GENEALOGY BOOK! http://www.amazon.com/Genetic-Genealogy-Emily-D-Aulicino-ebook/dp/B00HJJWBU2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1391174801&sr=8-1&keywords=Genetic+Genealogy

I would say people don't have enough information! Margo ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Mardon via <genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com> To: "'Ian Logan'" <ianlogan22@btinternet.com>, <genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [DNA] New FTDNA customer mtDNA sequences from GenBank (09-DEC-2015) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 18:09:10 -0330 Ian, I understand that going 'public' with one's entire mtDNA genome isn't for everyone but I'm surprised that there aren't more FTDNA customers who choose to do so. As you are aware, submitters can list their names as a 'co-author' along with Bennett Greenspan for their own mtDNA genome submission. I've done that for mine. It's Accession No. HM034770. I wonder if the reason is that people don't know they can do this? Mardon (erbland@outlook.com) ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GENEALOGY-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________ 4 Common Foods 'Destroying' Your Digestive Health ... Hattaka K et al, "Effect of long term consumption of probiotic milk on ... http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/566b555ae928f555a17e0st03duc

List 8 more mtDNA sequences from FTDNA customers who have chosen to make their own submissions to the GenBank Database. The sequences belong to Haplogorups: H1, H7c1, H16a1, I2, I3c, J1b1a1c, K2b1b, V4 As usual I have added the sequences to my 'Checker' program to ensure accuracy. Ian (www.ianlogan.co.uk) -------------------- KU177476 FTDNA Haplogroup I3c 09-DEC-2015 A73G T152C T199C T204C G207A T239C T250C A263G 309.1C 315.1C 523.1C 523.2A 523.3C 523.4A 573.1C 573.2C A750G A1438G G1719A T2628C A2706G A4529T A4769G C7028T G8251A A8860G T10034C T10238C A10398G G11719A G12501A C12705T A13780G C14766T G15043A A15326G A15924G G16129A C16223T G16391A T16519C KU188275(Ireland) FTDNA Haplogroup V4 09-DEC-2015 T72C A263G 291.1A 309.1C 315.1C A750G A1438G C1657T A2706G G3849A G4580A A4769G C7028T A8860G C15250T A15326G C15904T T16298C KU188280(Sweden) FTDNA Haplogroup K2b1b 09-DEC-2015 A73G T146C T195C A263G 309.1C 315.1C A750G A1438G A1811G C2217T A2581G A2706G A3480G A4769G G5054A G5231A C7028T A8860G G9055A T9698C T9716C A10550G G11016A T11299C A11467G G11719A C11869A A12308G G12372A G12501A A14037G C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G G16129A T16189Y T16224C T16311C A16399G T16519C KU199316(Ireland) FTDNA Haplogroup I2 09-DEC-2015 A73G T152C T199C T204C G207A T250C A263G 315.1C 573.1C 573.2C A750G A1438G G1719A A2706G A4529T A4769G C7028T A7822G G8251A A8860G A9604G T10034C T10238C A10398G G11719A G12501A C12705T A13780G C14766T G15043A A15326G G15731A A15758G A15924G G16129A C16223T T16362C G16391A T16519C KU203314(England) FTDNA Haplogroup H1 09-DEC-2015 A263G 309.1C 315.1C A750G A1438G G3010A A4769G G7976A A8860G T9185K A15326G C16221T C16290T C16294T T16519C KU203315 FTDNA Haplogroup H16a1 09-DEC-2015 T152C A263G 315.1C C739T A750G A1438G A4769G G8592A A8860G C10394T A15326G A15340G T16519C KU212903 FTDNA Haplogroup H7c1 09-DEC-2015 A263G 309.1C 315.1C A750G A1438G A4769G A4793G C6296A A8860G C13389T A15326G A16265G T16519C KU218582 FTDNA Haplogroup J1b1a1c 09-DEC-2015 G9T T10C A73G C242T A263G C295T 315.1C C462T T489C A750G A1438G T2158C A2706G G3010A T4216C A4769G G5460A C7028T G8269A G8557A A8860G A10398G A11251G G11719A G12007A A12612G G13708A T13879C C14766T A15326G C15452A C16069T T16126C G16145A T16172C C16222T C16261T