On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 11:01:47 +0200, "Lesley Robertson" <[email protected]> wrote: > >"Steve Hayes" <[email protected]> wrote in message >news:[email protected] >> >> So what is a Stray? This is a person who is described in a record as being >> from, or connected with, a place outside the area in which they normally >> lived >> or were born. >> > >But how far away does "outside" mean? The next parish? The next county? And >how long is 'normally lived"? I have ag labs in my databases who seemed to >specialise in having each of their large number of kids in a new parish.... The Cambridge strays project seem to regard it as meaning "out of county" which, here in South Africa, and in Canada, one might regard as "out of province, and in Oz and the US they might regard as "out of state" and so on for other places. Of course in places close to the borders it might not apply. If you couldn't find someone in Newcastle (NBL) you ought to think of looking in Gateshead, and in Kansas City (Missouri) and Kansas City (Kansas) and so on. So the exact limits of what is included might vary in borderline (in both senses of the word) cases. Here are some from my files that I would count as strays. These are all taken from one source: death notices in deceased estate (probate) files, but you could find trhe same kind of thing in other sources as well. Ainscough, John Died: 28 Aug 1914 RSA, TVL, Standerton Born: England, Blackrod, Anderton, Arthur Goldthorpe Died: 16 Feb 1926 Newcastle, Natal Born: Port St Johns, Transkei, Cape, Bagot, Walter Lewis Died: 26 May 1927 RSA, TVL, Johannesburg, Parktown Born: England, Barrett, Beatrice Elizabeth Died: 22 Jun 1959 Nongoma, Zululand, Natal Born: Shropshire, England, Beningfield, Annie Theresa Died: 27 Apr 1950 Kokstad, Mount Currie, Cape Born: Greytown, Natal, 13 Oct 1867 Blew, Thomas Harry Died: 28 May 1946 Marshlands, Mooi River, Natal Born: England, Boyce, Constance Lilian Kingwill Died: 23 Apr 1970 Nelspruit Born: Aberdeen, CP, 22 Sep 1880 Brown, Joseph Ellis Died: 16 Apr 1919 Kinnoull, Ridge Road, Durban Born: Atwell, Cambs, England, Burnard, James Fry Leslie Died: 17 Feb 1945 Italy Born: Claremont, Cape, South Africa, Cathcart, Frederick John Died: 28 Feb 1970 Hillcrest, Natal Born: Woolich, England (Woolwich), 24 Jul 1888 Cherrington, Richard Layton Died: 2 Sep 1943 off the shores of Italy Born: Uitenhage, Chester, Mary Alice Died: 22 Oct 1948 37 Howard Avenue, Durban Born: England, 1871 Cobban, Robert McLean Died: 2 Nov 1957 Pietermaritzburg Born: Johannesburg, Cottam, John Bagot Died: 10 Aug 1909 at residence Born: Salford, England, Cottam, William Hutchinson Died: 30 Nov 1946 Maranatha, Talana Road, Calremont, Cape Born: England, Crawley, Leslie Henry Died: 27 May 1966 15 Fourth Avenue, Greyville, Durban Born: Harrismith, Crighton, Martha Died: 4 Sep 1924 Royal Hotel, Durban Born: Capetown, Crighton, William Donald Died: 8 Dec 1966 Provincial Hospital, Port Shepstone Born: Cape Town, Davis, Oliver Died: 26 Dec 1927 Pook's Hill, Helpmekaar Dist Born: Abingdon, Berks, England, De Beer, Johannes Johan Martin Enslin de Beer Died: 14 Mar 1974 Ceres W/s 1001 Jacob Mare Straat 229 Born: Standerton, 20 May 1905 Decker, Jessie Died: 26 Sep 1937 RSA, TVL, Standerton Born: RSA, Eastern Cape, East London, Deeks, Herbert Hall Died: 16 Jul 1949 Mountain View Guest Farm, PO Hennops River Born: Norwich, England, Devantier, Ivan Melvin Died: 6 Apr 1968 Apple Orchard Dist, Vereeniging Born: King William's Town, 11 Jul 1927 Devantier, Mary Caroline Theresa Died: 10 Jul 1956 37 Johannes Street, Troyeville, Johannesburg Born: Queenstown, Devantier, Philip Cecil Died: 4 Nov 1964 187 Kitchener Ave, Kensington, Jhb Born: King William's Town, South Africa, Ellis, Arthur Joseph Died: 21 Oct 1938 Durban Born: Tasmania, 1866 Falconer, Robert Fraser Died: 13 Mar 1964 Far East Rand Hospital, Springs Born: Nairn, Scotland, Falconer, Winnie Amelia Died: 20 Jun 1973 Kempton Park Born: Queenstown, 19 Nov 1888 Falkenberg, Albert Eric Died: 27 Apr 1938 RSA, TVL, Brakpan Born: Cape Province, Falkenberg, Friedrich Heinrich Died: 23 Apr 1901 Farm Glenred, Dist Vryburg Born: in Germany, Fissler, Elizabeth Anne Died: 19 Nov 1936 Pretoria Born: Germany, Foster, Thomas Died: 11 Aug 1903 Stainton, Ixopo, Natal Born: England, Francis, Gladys Lilian Died: 11 Mar 1968 Durban Born: Johannesburg, 29 Jul 1894 Fraser, James Herbert Died: 24 Jan 1930 Zeekoewater, Witbank Born: Grahamstown, Green, Isabella Died: 1 Sep 1853 9 Church Square, Graaff Reinet Born: Cockermouth, Cumberland, England, Green, Mary Elizabeth Died: 18 APR 1952 RSA, TVL, Johannesburg, Florence N. Born: Nr, Omaruru, SWA, Nov 1865 Greenaway, Edward William Isaac Died: 28 Feb 1972 RSA, TVL, Johannesburg, Kensington Born: RSA, Natal, Newcastle, 7 Jan 1920 Greenaway, Jane Died: 13 Feb 1913 Pietermaritzburg, Natal Born: Kilkampton, Cornwall, England, Greenaway, Richard Henry William Died: 12 Feb 1904 Verulam, Alexandra county, Natal Born: Cathcart, East London (sic), Growden, Joseph Died: 20 Sep 1920 RSA, TVL, Johannesburg, Kensington Born: ENG, Cornwall, Growdon, Florence Died: 8 Jan 1926 9 Symond Street, Kroonstad Born: Cathcart, Growdon, George Frederick Died: 20-10-1954 Durban Born: East London, Harris, Richard Vause Died: 21 Jun 1969 Johannesburg Born: Durban, 16 Aug 1930 Hart-Davis, Geoffrey Charles Died: 9 Dec 1941 on active service betwee Sollum & Bandia Born: Natal, Haupt, Elizabeth Jacoba Died: 15 Jan 1969 Vanderbijlpark Born: Paarl, 2 Jul 1884 Herbert, Adelaide Died: 10 Aug 1909 268 Florida Road, Durban Born: Salford, Manchester, England, Hickman, Annie Louisa Devereux Died: 13 Jun 1951 Arcadia Nursing Home, Pretoira Born: Durban, Hickman, Helena Alberhta de Villiers Died: 30 May 1957 Greytown Hospital, Greytown Born: Rivier Zonder End, Cape, South Africa, 14 Jul 1900 Hickman, Mona Preston Died: 24 Jun 1960 Lady Dudley Nursing Home, Johannesburg Born: Queenstown, Hill, Elaine Died: 2 Mar 1953 National Road, Newcastle Born: Worcester, Cape, 28 Dec 1921 Holland, Winifred Died: 2 Aug 1936 General Hospital, Johannesburg Born: Adelaide, Cape, Hurst, Edwin Henry Died: 13 Mar 1961 Kero Court, Johannesburg Born: England, Isted, Agnes Maude Died: 9 Oct 1968 Durban Born: Unknown, 4 Aug 1852 King, Anne Lindsay Died: 23 NOV 1958 RSA, TVL, Pretoria, 282 Preller St Born: ENG, CUL, Windermere, 1889 Koch, Constance Lilian Kingwill Died: 23 Apr 1970 Nelspruit Hospital Born: Willowmore, Cape, 22 Sep 1880 Koch, Minnie Died: 2 Feb 1945 Nelspoort Hospital, Beaufort West Distric Born: Rietbron, Willowmore, Koch, Minnie Florence Died: 1 Feb 1937 Far East Rand Hospital, Springs Born: Uitenhage, Capew, Abt Nov 1891 Large, William George Died: 11 Jul 1916 France Born: Manderston Kent, England, > >I think that strays indexes are wonderful things, and I'm building indexes >of Whitsome & Hilton (BEW) strays myself. Because these indexes are for a >limited area (one parish) and my own use, I can afford to be fairly loose >with my definition of "stray" but it all got out of hand until I limited the >definition to people who moved away from their birth/baptism parish(which >means that every child in some families is regarded as a stray from a >different parish to its siblings That too, though I wouldn't count adjacent or nearby parishes as strays for most purposes. The main point is that if someone died far away from the place where they were born or lived, a strays index can alert you about the possibility of finding records in different places. It works both ways, too. Someone in South Africa looking for Adelaide Herbert: Herbert, Adelaide Died: 10 Aug 1909 268 Florida Road, Durban Born: Salford, Manchester, England, knowing that she was born in Salford, could then look further in English censuses. Someone in the UK, wondering why her death record isn't (for example) in FreeBMD, would know to look in records of deaths in Durban. > >You are never going to satisfy everyone, but it's still worth doing. I think >that you should decide on a definition that suits you (out of parish, out of >county, or whatever), state it clearly on page 1, together with any other >ground rules you need to make the thing manageable, and stick to them. > >Lesley Robertson > -- Steve Hayes Web: http://hayesgreene.wordpress.com/ http://hayesgreene.blogspot.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/afgen/
On Wed, 15 Jun 2011 05:12:48 +0200, Steve Hayes <[email protected]> wrote: >On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 11:01:47 +0200, "Lesley Robertson" ><[email protected]> wrote: > >> >>"Steve Hayes" <[email protected]> wrote in message >>news:[email protected] >>> >>> So what is a Stray? This is a person who is described in a record as being >>> from, or connected with, a place outside the area in which they normally >>> lived >>> or were born. >>> >> >>But how far away does "outside" mean? The next parish? The next county? And >>how long is 'normally lived"? I have ag labs in my databases who seemed to >>specialise in having each of their large number of kids in a new parish.... > >The Cambridge strays project seem to regard it as meaning "out of county" >which, here in South Africa, and in Canada, one might regard as "out of >province, and in Oz and the US they might regard as "out of state" and so on >for other places. > Not necessarily an equivalent comparison as "out of county" is usually still within the same jurisdiction unlike "out of province/state". Those are more comparable to "out of country" within the UK (England/Scotland/[Northern] Ireland). One inference in "Cambridge strays" is "not in Cambridge" although if it deals with the county then it should "Cambridgeshire strays" or to avoid doubt "strays from/in Cambridgeshire" as strays indexes can IME deal with either case. In practice the manner of being "stray" ought to be easily identifiable in a short descriptive title as in the last example above unlike in the shorter "Cambridge strays". >Of course in places close to the borders it might not apply. If you couldn't >find someone in Newcastle (NBL) you ought to think of looking in Gateshead, >and in Kansas City (Missouri) and Kansas City (Kansas) and so on. So the exact >limits of what is included might vary in borderline (in both senses of the >word) cases. > >Here are some from my files that I would count as strays. These are all taken >from one source: death notices in deceased estate (probate) files, but you >could find trhe same kind of thing in other sources as well. > > >Ainscough, John Died: 28 Aug 1914 > RSA, TVL, Standerton > Born: England, Blackrod, >Anderton, Arthur Goldthorpe Died: 16 Feb 1926 > Newcastle, Natal > Born: Port St Johns, Transkei, Cape, >Bagot, Walter Lewis Died: 26 May 1927 > RSA, TVL, Johannesburg, Parktown > Born: England, >Barrett, Beatrice Elizabeth Died: 22 Jun 1959 > Nongoma, Zululand, Natal > Born: Shropshire, England, >Beningfield, Annie Theresa Died: 27 Apr 1950 > Kokstad, Mount Currie, Cape > Born: Greytown, Natal, 13 Oct 1867 >Blew, Thomas Harry Died: 28 May 1946 > Marshlands, Mooi River, Natal > Born: England, >Boyce, Constance Lilian Kingwill Died: 23 Apr 1970 > Nelspruit > Born: Aberdeen, CP, 22 Sep 1880 >Brown, Joseph Ellis Died: 16 Apr 1919 > Kinnoull, Ridge Road, Durban > Born: Atwell, Cambs, England, >Burnard, James Fry Leslie Died: 17 Feb 1945 > Italy > Born: Claremont, Cape, South Africa, >Cathcart, Frederick John Died: 28 Feb 1970 > Hillcrest, Natal > Born: Woolich, England (Woolwich), 24 Jul 1888 >Cherrington, Richard Layton Died: 2 Sep 1943 > off the shores of Italy > Born: Uitenhage, >Chester, Mary Alice Died: 22 Oct 1948 > 37 Howard Avenue, Durban > Born: England, 1871 >Cobban, Robert McLean Died: 2 Nov 1957 > Pietermaritzburg > Born: Johannesburg, >Cottam, John Bagot Died: 10 Aug 1909 > at residence > Born: Salford, England, >Cottam, William Hutchinson Died: 30 Nov 1946 > Maranatha, Talana Road, Calremont, Cape > Born: England, >Crawley, Leslie Henry Died: 27 May 1966 > 15 Fourth Avenue, Greyville, Durban > Born: Harrismith, >Crighton, Martha Died: 4 Sep 1924 > Royal Hotel, Durban > Born: Capetown, >Crighton, William Donald Died: 8 Dec 1966 > Provincial Hospital, Port Shepstone > Born: Cape Town, >Davis, Oliver Died: 26 Dec 1927 > Pook's Hill, Helpmekaar Dist > Born: Abingdon, Berks, England, >De Beer, Johannes Johan Martin Enslin de Beer Died: 14 Mar 1974 > Ceres W/s 1001 Jacob Mare Straat 229 > Born: Standerton, 20 May 1905 >Decker, Jessie Died: 26 Sep 1937 > RSA, TVL, Standerton > Born: RSA, Eastern Cape, East London, >Deeks, Herbert Hall Died: 16 Jul 1949 > Mountain View Guest Farm, PO Hennops River > Born: Norwich, England, >Devantier, Ivan Melvin Died: 6 Apr 1968 > Apple Orchard Dist, Vereeniging > Born: King William's Town, 11 Jul 1927 >Devantier, Mary Caroline Theresa Died: 10 Jul 1956 > 37 Johannes Street, Troyeville, Johannesburg > Born: Queenstown, >Devantier, Philip Cecil Died: 4 Nov 1964 > 187 Kitchener Ave, Kensington, Jhb > Born: King William's Town, South Africa, >Ellis, Arthur Joseph Died: 21 Oct 1938 > Durban > Born: Tasmania, 1866 >Falconer, Robert Fraser Died: 13 Mar 1964 > Far East Rand Hospital, Springs > Born: Nairn, Scotland, >Falconer, Winnie Amelia Died: 20 Jun 1973 > Kempton Park > Born: Queenstown, 19 Nov 1888 >Falkenberg, Albert Eric Died: 27 Apr 1938 > RSA, TVL, Brakpan > Born: Cape Province, >Falkenberg, Friedrich Heinrich Died: 23 Apr 1901 > Farm Glenred, Dist Vryburg > Born: in Germany, >Fissler, Elizabeth Anne Died: 19 Nov 1936 > Pretoria > Born: Germany, >Foster, Thomas Died: 11 Aug 1903 > Stainton, Ixopo, Natal > Born: England, >Francis, Gladys Lilian Died: 11 Mar 1968 > Durban > Born: Johannesburg, 29 Jul 1894 >Fraser, James Herbert Died: 24 Jan 1930 > Zeekoewater, Witbank > Born: Grahamstown, >Green, Isabella Died: 1 Sep 1853 > 9 Church Square, Graaff Reinet > Born: Cockermouth, Cumberland, England, >Green, Mary Elizabeth Died: 18 APR 1952 > RSA, TVL, Johannesburg, Florence N. > Born: Nr, Omaruru, SWA, Nov 1865 >Greenaway, Edward William Isaac Died: 28 Feb 1972 > RSA, TVL, Johannesburg, Kensington > Born: RSA, Natal, Newcastle, 7 Jan 1920 >Greenaway, Jane Died: 13 Feb 1913 > Pietermaritzburg, Natal > Born: Kilkampton, Cornwall, England, >Greenaway, Richard Henry William Died: 12 Feb 1904 > Verulam, Alexandra county, Natal > Born: Cathcart, East London (sic), >Growden, Joseph Died: 20 Sep 1920 > RSA, TVL, Johannesburg, Kensington > Born: ENG, Cornwall, >Growdon, Florence Died: 8 Jan 1926 > 9 Symond Street, Kroonstad > Born: Cathcart, >Growdon, George Frederick Died: 20-10-1954 > Durban > Born: East London, >Harris, Richard Vause Died: 21 Jun 1969 > Johannesburg > Born: Durban, 16 Aug 1930 >Hart-Davis, Geoffrey Charles Died: 9 Dec 1941 > on active service betwee Sollum & Bandia > Born: Natal, >Haupt, Elizabeth Jacoba Died: 15 Jan 1969 > Vanderbijlpark > Born: Paarl, 2 Jul 1884 >Herbert, Adelaide Died: 10 Aug 1909 > 268 Florida Road, Durban > Born: Salford, Manchester, England, >Hickman, Annie Louisa Devereux Died: 13 Jun 1951 > Arcadia Nursing Home, Pretoira > Born: Durban, >Hickman, Helena Alberhta de Villiers Died: 30 May 1957 > Greytown Hospital, Greytown > Born: Rivier Zonder End, Cape, South Africa, 14 Jul 1900 >Hickman, Mona Preston Died: 24 Jun 1960 > Lady Dudley Nursing Home, Johannesburg > Born: Queenstown, >Hill, Elaine Died: 2 Mar 1953 > National Road, Newcastle > Born: Worcester, Cape, 28 Dec 1921 >Holland, Winifred Died: 2 Aug 1936 > General Hospital, Johannesburg > Born: Adelaide, Cape, >Hurst, Edwin Henry Died: 13 Mar 1961 > Kero Court, Johannesburg > Born: England, >Isted, Agnes Maude Died: 9 Oct 1968 > Durban > Born: Unknown, 4 Aug 1852 >King, Anne Lindsay Died: 23 NOV 1958 > RSA, TVL, Pretoria, 282 Preller St > Born: ENG, CUL, Windermere, 1889 >Koch, Constance Lilian Kingwill Died: 23 Apr 1970 > Nelspruit Hospital > Born: Willowmore, Cape, 22 Sep 1880 >Koch, Minnie Died: 2 Feb 1945 > Nelspoort Hospital, Beaufort West Distric > Born: Rietbron, Willowmore, >Koch, Minnie Florence Died: 1 Feb 1937 > Far East Rand Hospital, Springs > Born: Uitenhage, Capew, Abt Nov 1891 >Large, William George Died: 11 Jul 1916 > France > Born: Manderston Kent, England, > >> >>I think that strays indexes are wonderful things, and I'm building indexes >>of Whitsome & Hilton (BEW) strays myself. Because these indexes are for a >>limited area (one parish) and my own use, I can afford to be fairly loose >>with my definition of "stray" but it all got out of hand until I limited the >>definition to people who moved away from their birth/baptism parish(which >>means that every child in some families is regarded as a stray from a >>different parish to its siblings > >That too, though I wouldn't count adjacent or nearby parishes as strays for >most purposes. > >The main point is that if someone died far away from the place where they were >born or lived, a strays index can alert you about the possibility of finding >records in different places. > >It works both ways, too. > >Someone in South Africa looking for Adelaide Herbert: > >Herbert, Adelaide Died: 10 Aug 1909 > 268 Florida Road, Durban > Born: Salford, Manchester, England, > >knowing that she was born in Salford, could then look further in English >censuses. > >Someone in the UK, wondering why her death record isn't (for example) in >FreeBMD, would know to look in records of deaths in Durban. > > > > > > >> >>You are never going to satisfy everyone, but it's still worth doing. I think >>that you should decide on a definition that suits you (out of parish, out of >>county, or whatever), state it clearly on page 1, together with any other >>ground rules you need to make the thing manageable, and stick to them. >> >>Lesley Robertson >>
Steve Hayes <[email protected]> wrote: >>But how far away does "outside" mean? The next parish? The next county? And >>how long is 'normally lived"? I have ag labs in my databases who seemed to >>specialise in having each of their large number of kids in a new parish.... > >The Cambridge strays project seem to regard it as meaning "out of county" >which, here in South Africa, and in Canada, one might regard as "out of >province, and in Oz and the US they might regard as "out of state" and so on >for other places. The US census reported that some 40 million people in the US moved during 2005-2006, 20% to a different county, 14% to a different state, and 3% to a different country (into the US from abroad). Using the state level or higher, that is 7 million "strays" a year. Not a small number. http://progressiverealtync.blogspot.com/2007/10/us-census-bureau-releases-statistics-on.html Obviously the population was lower 100 years ago, but I suspect that the percentage rates were somewhat higher. But since many of those relocations were entire families, simply looking the names of the family members up on the census will find them even in another state. That is why I wouldn't consider people living with their families to necessarily be "strays" of the sort needing a special database (though perhaps if they are newly married and have changed states, that is significant). It is the people NOT living with their families that are hard to find, especially if the name is a common one. That is just relocations - in this country, people often go to a neighboring state (or to Las Vegas or some other resort) to get married, though they don't actually relocate. Vegas's county has some 120,000 marriages per year, with a population just under 2 million, about 3 times that of the total population of Nevada 30 years ago. By the above definition, most people in Nevada are strays, since they weren't born in Nevada, and most marriages in Vegas are strays. lojbab --- Bob LeChevalier - artificial linguist; genealogist [email protected] Lojban language www.lojban.org