On Thu, 22 Aug 2013 00:48:50 +0100, Renia <renia@otenet.gr> wrote: >On 21/08/2013 17:39, Charles Ellson wrote: >> On Wed, 21 Aug 2013 17:01:29 +0100, Renia <renia@otenet.gr> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On 21/08/2013 01:15, The Chief wrote: >>>> Two possibilities to explain your mysterious "Lady" that don't seem >>>> to have been mentioned before: >>>> >>>> 1) A simple misunderstanding Both then and even today, the wife or >>>> daughter of any gentleman can rightfully claim to be, or be said to >>>> be, a "lady". Indeed, it is common to see the wife of gentlemen so >>> >>> That is not correct. The style or title of Lady is part of one's name. >>> A lady is a woman of fine manners and accomplishments,or as you >>> suggest, the daughter of a gentleman but it does does not entitle her to >>> use Lady as part of her name. or style herself as such on a census. >>> >> The Chief is correct. As demonstrated with past television programmes, >> there is no bar on a woman styling herself "lady/Lady" in the absence >> of criminal deception. The last one I remember was two different women >> being sent into a shop (Harrods or Selfridges possibly) whose only >> practical difference was one styling herself "Lady" and who received >> clearly different treatment from the other. The matter has also been >> mentioned on various programmes about shooping fraud where the style >> "Lady" was described as lawful until it became part of an act of >> criminal deception (which can committed by allowing someone to form an >> incorrect impression of the perpetrator's status even if the >> perpetrator makes no specific claim). > >You are talking of fraud in modern times which is not really pertinent >to the early 20th century. > Giving the false impression that your credit is good was far from a modern invention in the 19th century. > >> As for "The style or title of Lady is part of one's name", that is >> only correct with titles or names but not with styles, > >If a woman has the style of Lady Smith, this tells us the style is by >right of her husband, that she is the wife of a titled person or a >knight. If she is styled Lady Mary Smith, then the style is her own, >something she has inherited as the daughter of a peer, or something she >has been granted by the monarch. > No, if she is female and has the surname Smith then that is enough. It might not be acceptable to people in some social circles but it isn't forbidden. >My great-grandmother was a Lady, by right of her husband, who was a >knight. She sometimes styled herself "Dame". Her daughter was the wife >of a baron, and the baron and the baroness never used their surname, but >that of his title. If he was, for example, Bill Jones, Baron Middleton, >he called himself Bill Middleton.

On 22/08/2013 03:07, Charles Ellson wrote: > On Thu, 22 Aug 2013 00:48:50 +0100, Renia <renia@otenet.gr> wrote: > > Giving the false impression that your credit is good was far from a > modern invention in the 19th century. Of course it wasn't. But that's what the Burke's books and directories were for and why aristocrats knew their genealogies. It wasn't for snob value, but as a means of reference for lawyers and others to uncover such fraudsters. Local shopkeepers usually knew their local aristocrats, who often shopped on tick, the bill only being paid out of their estate. If the local shopkeeper didn't know a person who claimed to be titled, more fool them if they gave them their goods on tick. >>> As for "The style or title of Lady is part of one's name", that >>> is only correct with titles or names but not with styles, >> >> If a woman has the style of Lady Smith, this tells us the style is >> by right of her husband, that she is the wife of a titled person or >> a knight. If she is styled Lady Mary Smith, then the style is her >> own, something she has inherited as the daughter of a peer, or >> something she has been granted by the monarch. >> > No, if she is female and has the surname Smith then that is enough. > It might not be acceptable to people in some social circles but it > isn't forbidden. Nope, if the title was her husband's then she was known as Lady Husbands-Surname. If the title was her own, then she was known as Lady Mary Husbands-Surname, at least, on written documents. In social occasions, she would be referred to as Lady Husbands-Surname, or Lady Mary, depending on the origin of he title. There were plenty of etquette books around which made this quite clear. Even in my own lifetime, I, myself, have been referred to as Mrs Peter Simmonds which is actually the correct form.