Apologies in advance for the length of this post. I keep revisiting John in the hope that I can finally get back further for this line. I am really stuck but 'have' put in a lot of work before asking for help, so I have included as much info as I can to save anyone who is willing to help from duplicating the effort. John Wilson c1874 - 1923 Definite, documented and checked out info, (working backward from what I already knew): 13th March 1923 Probate Calendar says John Wilson died 8th Feb, address 34 Tunnel Road Probate to widow, Mary Wilson, effects £134 2s 11d 8th Feb 1923, Q1 1923 Liverpool 8b 491 death certificate. Aged 48, address 34 Tunnel Road, occupation Engineer Fitter. Informant Mary Wilson, widow same address 1911 Gores entry : Wilson, John confectioner, 34 Tunnel Road His Grandaughter, (born after John died) says the family had a sweetie shop at 34 Tunnel Road when she was young. 2nd April 1911 Census RG14PN22593 RG78PN1326 RD455 SD9 ED41 SN29, 34 Tunnel Road, Head of House is John Wilson, age 36, occupation Agricultural Engineer, born Liverpool, been married 12 years, wife Mary age 34 plus children : John (11), Frederick (10), Mary (8), Jessie (3) and Dora (4months) - their final child, Stanley, was born in 1919. 31st March 1901 Census Class: RG13;Piece: 3493;Folio: 50;Page: 4, 34 Tunnel Road, Head of House John Wilson, age 26 , occupation Cycle Fitter, born Liverpool, wife Mary age 24, plus John (1) and Fred (4months). 8th August 1898 , Q3 1898 Liverpool 8b 137, Marriage certificate. John Wilson age 25, Bachelor, occupation Fitter, address 8 Moor (or possibly Moon) Street, father: William Wilson occupation: Sample Man Mary Cochrane, age 22, spinster, no occupation, address 6 Boundary Place, father William Cochrane occupation Tin Smith Witnesses George Moor and Susannah Dean (no bells ringing for those names) Marriage took place at St Mary Magdalen All fairly straightforward but I have been struggling for years now to get further back than his marriage. His father's occupation of Sample Man was a first for me and I am working on the assumption that he was some sort of commercial traveller/salesman. I worked through the census returns in 1881/1891 looking for a John Wilson b c 1874 with a Dad called William. Checked ages, occupations etc and tracked them forward to see if can find one that 'fits', cross checked with parish registers for extra info. No joy, nothing which could go into the highly possible file. So, I then started on the John Wilsons who were left on the possibles list. Dad not William but maybe a lodger/nephew/brother/passerby (I am straw clutching here) and there is one which gives me that niggling feeling that it may be 'the' one, but its not writ in stone and there are flaws. 5th April 1891 Census RG number: RG12,Piece: 2992,Folio: 26, Page: 47 Head of House is Thomas Collins age 37, widower occupation Shop Porter, born Ireland 3 daughters with surname Collins - Annie (10), Violet (8), Maud (5) plus John Wilson, Stepson age 16, occupation Apprentice Blacksmith, born Liverpool E G (oh thanks for that, it would have been useful to give her full name!) Stepdaughter, age 12. So, looks like his wife who died was a widow/unmarried mother of 2 when they married c 1880? Going back.. 3rd April 1881 Census RG number: RG11,Piece: 3700,Folio: 75, Page: 34 Head of House is Thomas Collins , age 27, married, occupation Freight Clerk, born Ireland Mary A Collins, wife age 27, born Liverpool Fred Wilson Stepson, age 9, born Liverpool Elizabeth Wilson, age 2, born Liverpool Annie Collins, age 0, born Liverpool plus a bunch of boarders in the house. ? seems to be the same family but no sign of John (who would be 6) and there is a Fred who is 9. 16th November 1879 Mary Ann Wilson, widow, aged 26, father William Poland, warehouseman married Thomas Collins, Bachelor, aged 24, occupation Warehouseman, father John Collins, bricklayer. Address for both: Rathbone Street. Witnesses Alex McDowall, Margaret Thompson. Church - St Nicholas. 19th September 1871 Mary Ann Poland, spinster, age 19, father William Poland, warehouseman. Married William Wilson age 21, occupation Salesman, father John Wilson, painter. Address for both Smithdown Lane. Witnesses Charles Girvan(? Girran), Mary Taylor. Church - St Stephen the Martyrs. There is a baptism for an Elizabeth Gertude Wilson, 5th June 1878, (born 10 May 1878) St Ambrose, Everton. Parents : William & Mary Ann Wilson, 40 Herwood ( I think it should say Harewood ) St., Father 's occupation Clerk. Lots of possibilities for a death registration for William Wilson c1877-1879 I have an entry from the probate calendar for a William Wilson, formerly of Anthony-street but late of Greenwood street both in Everton Liverpool in the county of Lancaster who died 2 December 1877 at Greenwood street proved at Liverpool by Mary Ann Wilson of 40 Harewood street Liverpool Widow the Relict and Willian Poland of 64 Whitefield road Liverpool Warehouseman the Executors. Can't find a baptism for a Fred(erick) born c1872 or John born c1874, but the likely church records (St Stephen/ St Ambrose) are not on ancestry for those dates- though I have searched on all churches too). It kind of 'feels' right, but though my gut feeling is that its possible, I feel I am chasing shadows, I get near to a conclusion and then it slips away from me. If there is anyone who has had the stamina to read all this and has a bit of stamina left over to give it some thought and pass comment/put forward suggestions I would 'really' appreciate it. -- Tickettyboo

On 14/08/2013 11:12, Tickettyboo wrote: > 8th August 1898 , Q3 1898 Liverpool 8b 137, Marriage certificate. > John Wilson age 25, Bachelor, occupation Fitter, address 8 Moor (or > possibly Moon) Street, father: William Wilson occupation: Sample Man > Mary Cochrane, age 22, spinster, no occupation, address 6 Boundary > Place, father William Cochrane occupation Tin Smith > Witnesses George Moor and Susannah Dean (no bells ringing for those names) > Marriage took place at St Mary Magdalen In 1891, 8 Moon Street, Liverpool, was a boarding house. (None of the names you mention was living there at the time.) In 1891, Richard Poland, an unmarried packing-case maker was living there. He was aged 28 and born in Liverpool.

On 14/08/2013 11:12, Tickettyboo wrote: > 19th September 1871 Mary Ann Poland, spinster, age 19, father William > Poland, warehouseman. Married William Wilson age 21, occupation > Salesman, father John Wilson, painter. Address for both Smithdown Lane. > Witnesses Charles Girvan(? Girran), Mary Taylor. Church - St Stephen the > Martyrs. In 1881, William Poland, warehouseman, was living at 88 Grey Rock Street, West Derby (Liverpool), aged 58, born in Liverpool. With him were living his wife, Margaret, aged 56, born Liverpool, and children Jane (18, pupil teacher) and Mary Jane (15, scholar), both born Liverpool. In 1881, they were living at 15 Cazneau Street, Liverpool. William a coal dealer, then aged 48, born Liverpool. Margaret was aged 46, born in Scotland. Mary Ann, aged 17, was born in Liverpool. Jane aged 8 and Mary Jane aged 5 were born born in Liverpool. The children were all scholars. In 1891 they were at 113 Needham Road, West Derby (Liverpool). William is now a retired warehouseman aged 68. Margaret waa aged 66 born in Scotland and Mary Jane was an unmarried schoolteacher aged 26. Living with them was their grandson, John Alex McDowell, aged 8, born in Liverpool. Richard Poland is proving to be more elusive.

Tickettyboo wrote: > If there is anyone who has had the stamina to read all this and has a bit of stamina left over to give it some > thought and pass comment/put forward suggestions I would 'really' appreciate it. You could try getting this birth certificate - there are only two Fredericks registered in Liverpool between 1871 and 1875 Births Jun 1872 Wilson Frederick Liverpool 8b 16 -- Anne Chambers South Australia anne dot chambers at bigpond dot com

On 14/08/13 11:12, Tickettyboo wrote: > Can't find a baptism for a Fred(erick) born c1872 or John born c1874, > but the likely church records (St Stephen/ St Ambrose) are not on > ancestry for those dates- though I have searched on all churches too). You've found several occasions when John has given his age, each of which give different estimates for his date of birth: death certificate: b 9 Feb 1874 to 8 Feb 1875. 1911 census: b 3 Apr 1874 to 2 Apr 1875. 1901 census: b 1 Apr 1874 to 31 Mar 1875. marriage certificate: b 9 Aug 1872 to 8 Aug 1873. 1891 census: b 6 Apr 1874 to 5 Apr 1875. Assuming you've not made a typo in your post (and I've not miscalculated), the marriage stands apart from the others. Probably it is the marriage is the wrong one, but I wouldn't dismiss the possibility that the others are all wrong. Nowhere is a middle name mentioned, and in particular not on the death certificate, probate record or marriage certificate. (Censuses are much more hit and miss with middle names.) That suggests that more likely than not, he didn't have a middle name. If we look through the birth registrations for the Liverpool district for the years 1872-1875 (i.e. the period consistent with at least one of the records, above), FreeBMD only has one John Wilson without a middle name: John Wilson, b reg Q3 1873, Liverpool [8b 116]. That might be worth a shot. > It kind of 'feels' right, but though my gut feeling is that its > possible, I feel I am chasing shadows, I get near to a conclusion and > then it slips away from me. It feels right to me too. However, to explore another possibility, I looked up Susannah Dean, one of the witnesses on the marriage. The name is unusual enough that there's only one plausible person, and in 1891 she was living in 34 Fowler Street, Everton with her adult siblings. Four doors away, in 42 Fowler Street are a William H Wilson and his wife Mary J Wilson, both aged 43. Could your John be a son of them? He's the right age, but the professions don't really match. William H Wilson worked for HM Customs; your William was described as a sample man. (I wondered whether a sample man might be something in the tailoring trade. Something to do with samples of fabric. But I don't really know.) Richard

On 15/08/2013 6:41 PM, Richard Smith wrote: > On 14/08/13 11:12, Tickettyboo wrote: > >> Can't find a baptism for a Fred(erick) born c1872 or John born c1874, >> but the likely church records (St Stephen/ St Ambrose) are not on >> ancestry for those dates- though I have searched on all churches too). > You've found several occasions when John has given his age, each of > which give different estimates for his date of birth: > > death certificate: b 9 Feb 1874 to 8 Feb 1875. > 1911 census: b 3 Apr 1874 to 2 Apr 1875. > 1901 census: b 1 Apr 1874 to 31 Mar 1875. > marriage certificate: b 9 Aug 1872 to 8 Aug 1873. > 1891 census: b 6 Apr 1874 to 5 Apr 1875. > > Assuming you've not made a typo in your post (and I've not > miscalculated), the marriage stands apart from the others. Probably it > is the marriage is the wrong one, but I wouldn't dismiss the possibility > that the others are all wrong. > > Nowhere is a middle name mentioned, and in particular not on the death > certificate, probate record or marriage certificate. (Censuses are much > more hit and miss with middle names.) That suggests that more likely > than not, he didn't have a middle name. > > If we look through the birth registrations for the Liverpool district > for the years 1872-1875 (i.e. the period consistent with at least one of > the records, above), FreeBMD only has one John Wilson without a middle > name: John Wilson, b reg Q3 1873, Liverpool [8b 116]. That might be > worth a shot. > >> It kind of 'feels' right, but though my gut feeling is that its >> possible, I feel I am chasing shadows, I get near to a conclusion and >> then it slips away from me. > It feels right to me too. > > However, to explore another possibility, I looked up Susannah Dean, one > of the witnesses on the marriage. The name is unusual enough that > there's only one plausible person, and in 1891 she was living in 34 > Fowler Street, Everton with her adult siblings. Four doors away, in 42 > Fowler Street are a William H Wilson and his wife Mary J Wilson, both > aged 43. Could your John be a son of them? He's the right age, but the > professions don't really match. William H Wilson worked for HM Customs; > your William was described as a sample man. (I wondered whether a > sample man might be something in the tailoring trade. Something to do > with samples of fabric. But I don't really know.) > > Richard > I had a quick look on Ancestry the other day for a possible service/pensions record for John Wilson. Then I got confused as to whether I was looking for Frederick or John. But I recall there is at least one John WILSON b. Liverpool 1874 [son of William and a pension record I think]. He is probably not "your" man, but look at the military records may help eliminate some of the candidates. Kind regards John Henley

On 2013-08-15 17:41:30 +0000, Richard Smith said: > On 14/08/13 11:12, Tickettyboo wrote: > >> Can't find a baptism for a Fred(erick) born c1872 or John born c1874, >> but the likely church records (St Stephen/ St Ambrose) are not on >> ancestry for those dates- though I have searched on all churches too). > > You've found several occasions when John has given his age, each of > which give different estimates for his date of birth: > > death certificate: b 9 Feb 1874 to 8 Feb 1875. > 1911 census: b 3 Apr 1874 to 2 Apr 1875. > 1901 census: b 1 Apr 1874 to 31 Mar 1875. > marriage certificate: b 9 Aug 1872 to 8 Aug 1873. > 1891 census: b 6 Apr 1874 to 5 Apr 1875. > > Assuming you've not made a typo in your post (and I've not > miscalculated), the marriage stands apart from the others. Probably it > is the marriage is the wrong one, but I wouldn't dismiss the > possibility that the others are all wrong. I do take your point, Its the age old scenario of not knowing 'who' gave the info and how well informed they were so I have factored in that sort of time span when I have been searching to try to pin John down. > > Nowhere is a middle name mentioned, and in particular not on the death > certificate, probate record or marriage certificate. (Censuses are > much more hit and miss with middle names.) That suggests that more > likely than not, he didn't have a middle name. > > If we look through the birth registrations for the Liverpool district > for the years 1872-1875 (i.e. the period consistent with at least one > of the records, above), FreeBMD only has one John Wilson without a > middle name: John Wilson, b reg Q3 1873, Liverpool [8b 116]. That > might be worth a shot. Thanks for looking, its appreciated. Though there is only one registration for the 'Liverpool' District for John (no middle name) Wilson there are another dozen in West Derby District in that time frame. http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/west%20derby.html shows the list of places covered by West Derby District over the years and I would hazard a guess that the majority of the folk registered there would, if asked , say they were born in Liverpool so I can't discount them. >> It kind of 'feels' right, but though my gut feeling is that its >> possible, I feel I am chasing shadows, I get near to a conclusion and >> then it slips away from me. > > It feels right to me too. > > However, to explore another possibility, I looked up Susannah Dean, one > of the witnesses on the marriage. The name is unusual enough that > there's only one plausible person, and in 1891 she was living in 34 > Fowler Street, Everton with her adult siblings. Four doors away, in 42 > Fowler Street are a William H Wilson and his wife Mary J Wilson, both > aged 43. Could your John be a son of them? He's the right age, but > the professions don't really match. William H Wilson worked for HM > Customs; your William was described as a sample man. (I wondered > whether a sample man might be something in the tailoring trade. > Something to do with samples of fabric. But I don't really know.) > Looking back through my notes, I have looked at these people (probably for the same reasons you suggest) and I discounted them as ten years earlier , when John would have been about 5-7 years old, the census shows the other children but no John - and so far I haven't found a stray John Wilson in the 1881 census who could be the child of William H and Mary J, nor is there any sign of a baptism for John to parents William Henry and Mary J -though I can see their other children being baptised. I couldn't read the word that looks like 'Ouldra' either and on the baptism records for the three younger children William H is down as Customs House Officer or Weight taker and - for the eldest, Harry, William was recorded as a labourer. Thanks again, another pair of eyes is always a help :-) -- Tickettyboo

"Tickettyboo" <tickettyboo@mail2oops.com> wrote in message news:b713gvFe8a7U1@mid.individual.net... > Apologies in advance for the length of this post. I keep revisiting John > in the hope that I can finally get back further for this line. I am really > stuck but 'have' put in a lot of work before asking for help, so I have > included as much info as I can to save anyone who is willing to help from > duplicating the effort. > > John Wilson c1874 - 1923 > > Definite, documented and checked out info, (working backward from what I > already knew): > > 13th March 1923 Probate Calendar says John Wilson died 8th Feb, address 34 > Tunnel Road Probate to widow, Mary Wilson, effects £134 2s 11d > > 8th Feb 1923, Q1 1923 Liverpool 8b 491 death certificate. Aged 48, address > 34 Tunnel Road, occupation Engineer Fitter. Informant Mary Wilson, widow > same address > > 1911 Gores entry : Wilson, John confectioner, 34 Tunnel Road His > Grandaughter, (born after John died) says the family had a sweetie shop at > 34 Tunnel Road when she was young. > > 2nd April 1911 Census RG14PN22593 RG78PN1326 RD455 SD9 ED41 SN29, 34 > Tunnel Road, Head of House is John Wilson, age 36, occupation Agricultural > Engineer, born Liverpool, been married 12 years, wife Mary age 34 plus > children : John (11), Frederick (10), Mary (8), Jessie (3) and Dora > (4months) - their final child, Stanley, was born in 1919. > > 31st March 1901 Census Class: RG13;Piece: 3493;Folio: 50;Page: 4, 34 > Tunnel Road, Head of House John Wilson, age 26 , occupation Cycle Fitter, > born Liverpool, wife Mary age 24, plus John (1) and Fred (4months). > > 8th August 1898 , Q3 1898 Liverpool 8b 137, Marriage certificate. > John Wilson age 25, Bachelor, occupation Fitter, address 8 Moor (or > possibly Moon) Street, father: William Wilson occupation: Sample Man > Mary Cochrane, age 22, spinster, no occupation, address 6 Boundary Place, > father William Cochrane occupation Tin Smith > Witnesses George Moor and Susannah Dean (no bells ringing for those names) > Marriage took place at St Mary Magdalen > > > All fairly straightforward but I have been struggling for years now to get > further back than his marriage. His father's occupation of Sample Man was > a first for me and I am working on the assumption that he was some sort of > commercial traveller/salesman. > > I worked through the census returns in 1881/1891 looking for a John > Wilson b c 1874 with a Dad called William. Checked ages, occupations etc > and tracked them forward to see if can find one that 'fits', cross checked > with parish registers for extra info. No joy, nothing which could go into > the highly possible file. > > So, I then started on the John Wilsons who were left on the possibles > list. Dad not William but maybe a lodger/nephew/brother/passerby (I am > straw clutching here) and there is one which gives me that niggling > feeling that it may be 'the' one, but its not writ in stone and there are > flaws. > > 5th April 1891 Census RG number: RG12,Piece: 2992,Folio: 26, Page: 47 > > Head of House is Thomas Collins age 37, widower occupation Shop Porter, > born Ireland > 3 daughters with surname Collins - Annie (10), Violet (8), Maud (5) > plus > John Wilson, Stepson age 16, occupation Apprentice Blacksmith, born > Liverpool > E G (oh thanks for that, it would have been useful to give her full name!) > Stepdaughter, age 12. > > So, looks like his wife who died was a widow/unmarried mother of 2 when > they married c 1880? > > > Going back.. > 3rd April 1881 Census RG number: RG11,Piece: 3700,Folio: 75, Page: 34 > Head of House is Thomas Collins , age 27, married, occupation Freight > Clerk, born Ireland > Mary A Collins, wife age 27, born Liverpool > Fred Wilson Stepson, age 9, born Liverpool > Elizabeth Wilson, age 2, born Liverpool > Annie Collins, age 0, born Liverpool > plus a bunch of boarders in the house. > > ? seems to be the same family but no sign of John (who would be 6) and > there is a Fred who is 9. > > 16th November 1879 Mary Ann Wilson, widow, aged 26, father William Poland, > warehouseman married Thomas Collins, Bachelor, aged 24, occupation > Warehouseman, father John Collins, bricklayer. Address for both: Rathbone > Street. Witnesses Alex McDowall, Margaret Thompson. Church - St Nicholas. > > 19th September 1871 Mary Ann Poland, spinster, age 19, father William > Poland, warehouseman. Married William Wilson age 21, occupation Salesman, > father John Wilson, painter. Address for both Smithdown Lane. Witnesses > Charles Girvan(? Girran), Mary Taylor. Church - St Stephen the Martyrs. > > > There is a baptism for an Elizabeth Gertude Wilson, 5th June 1878, (born > 10 May 1878) St Ambrose, Everton. Parents : William & Mary Ann Wilson, 40 > Herwood ( I think it should say Harewood ) St., Father 's occupation > Clerk. > > Lots of possibilities for a death registration for William Wilson > c1877-1879 > > I have an entry from the probate calendar for a William Wilson, formerly > of Anthony-street but late of Greenwood street both in Everton Liverpool > in the county of Lancaster who died 2 December 1877 at Greenwood street > proved at Liverpool by Mary Ann Wilson of 40 Harewood street Liverpool > Widow the Relict and Willian Poland of 64 Whitefield road Liverpool > Warehouseman the Executors. > > Can't find a baptism for a Fred(erick) born c1872 or John born c1874, but > the likely church records (St Stephen/ St Ambrose) are not on ancestry for > those dates- though I have searched on all churches too). > > > It kind of 'feels' right, but though my gut feeling is that its possible, > I feel I am chasing shadows, I get near to a conclusion and then it slips > away from me. > > If there is anyone who has had the stamina to read all this and has a bit > of stamina left over to give it some thought and pass comment/put forward > suggestions I would 'really' appreciate it. > -- > Tickettyboo > Maybe not Liverpool but OPC threw up what I think looks an interesting one: Baptism: 6 Oct 1872 St John, Preston, Lancashire, England Frederick William Wilson - [Child] of William Wilson & Mary Ann Occupation: Marine Store Dealer It struck me that the 'samples' could be marine ones. Tony Proctor