On Wed, 21 Aug 2013 17:01:29 +0100, Renia <renia@otenet.gr> wrote: > > >On 21/08/2013 01:15, The Chief wrote: >> Two possibilities to explain your mysterious "Lady" that don't seem >> to have been mentioned before: >> >> 1) A simple misunderstanding Both then and even today, the wife or >> daughter of any gentleman can rightfully claim to be, or be said to >> be, a "lady". Indeed, it is common to see the wife of gentlemen so > >That is not correct. The style or title of Lady is part of one's name. >A lady is a woman of fine manners and accomplishments,or as you >suggest, the daughter of a gentleman but it does does not entitle her to >use Lady as part of her name. or style herself as such on a census. > The Chief is correct. As demonstrated with past television programmes, there is no bar on a woman styling herself "lady/Lady" in the absence of criminal deception. The last one I remember was two different women being sent into a shop (Harrods or Selfridges possibly) whose only practical difference was one styling herself "Lady" and who received clearly different treatment from the other. The matter has also been mentioned on various programmes about shooping fraud where the style "Lady" was described as lawful until it became part of an act of criminal deception (which can committed by allowing someone to form an incorrect impression of the perpetrator's status even if the perpetrator makes no specific claim). As for "The style or title of Lady is part of one's name", that is only correct with titles or names but not with styles, see e.g. :- "https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/118548/titles-included-in-passports.pdf" which unfortunately fails to mention women at all but sets out the varying treatment where the same word can be a title (e.g. Lord Wherever), a description (e.g. Lord of the Manor) or a personal name; in the latter case the name is recorded but with the observation that "The reference to.... is to the holder's name and not to the holder's title."

On Wednesday, August 21, 2013 4:39:01 PM UTC, Charles Ellson wrote: > On Wed, 21 Aug 2013 17:01:29 +0100, Renia <renia@otenet.gr> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >On 21/08/2013 01:15, The Chief wrote: > > >> Two possibilities to explain your mysterious "Lady" that don't seem > > >> to have been mentioned before: > > >> > > >> 1) A simple misunderstanding Both then and even today, the wife or > > >> daughter of any gentleman can rightfully claim to be, or be said to > > >> be, a "lady". Indeed, it is common to see the wife of gentlemen so > > > > > >That is not correct. The style or title of Lady is part of one's name. > > >A lady is a woman of fine manners and accomplishments,or as you > > >suggest, the daughter of a gentleman but it does does not entitle her to > > >use Lady as part of her name. or style herself as such on a census. > > > > > The Chief is correct. As demonstrated with past television programmes, > > there is no bar on a woman styling herself "lady/Lady" in the absence > > of criminal deception. The last one I remember was two different women > > being sent into a shop (Harrods or Selfridges possibly) whose only > > practical difference was one styling herself "Lady" and who received > > clearly different treatment from the other. The matter has also been > > mentioned on various programmes about shooping fraud where the style > > "Lady" was described as lawful until it became part of an act of > > criminal deception (which can committed by allowing someone to form an > > incorrect impression of the perpetrator's status even if the > > perpetrator makes no specific claim). > > > > As for "The style or title of Lady is part of one's name", that is > > only correct with titles or names but not with styles, see e.g. :- > > "https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/118548/titles-included-in-passports.pdf" > > which unfortunately fails to mention women at all but sets out the > > varying treatment where the same word can be a title (e.g. Lord > > Wherever), a description (e.g. Lord of the Manor) or a personal name; > > in the latter case the name is recorded but with the observation that > > "The reference to.... is to the holder's name and not to the holder's > > title." Agreed. Regards, The Chief

On 21/08/2013 17:39, Charles Ellson wrote: > On Wed, 21 Aug 2013 17:01:29 +0100, Renia <renia@otenet.gr> wrote: > >> >> >> On 21/08/2013 01:15, The Chief wrote: >>> Two possibilities to explain your mysterious "Lady" that don't seem >>> to have been mentioned before: >>> >>> 1) A simple misunderstanding Both then and even today, the wife or >>> daughter of any gentleman can rightfully claim to be, or be said to >>> be, a "lady". Indeed, it is common to see the wife of gentlemen so >> >> That is not correct. The style or title of Lady is part of one's name. >> A lady is a woman of fine manners and accomplishments,or as you >> suggest, the daughter of a gentleman but it does does not entitle her to >> use Lady as part of her name. or style herself as such on a census. >> > The Chief is correct. As demonstrated with past television programmes, > there is no bar on a woman styling herself "lady/Lady" in the absence > of criminal deception. The last one I remember was two different women > being sent into a shop (Harrods or Selfridges possibly) whose only > practical difference was one styling herself "Lady" and who received > clearly different treatment from the other. The matter has also been > mentioned on various programmes about shooping fraud where the style > "Lady" was described as lawful until it became part of an act of > criminal deception (which can committed by allowing someone to form an > incorrect impression of the perpetrator's status even if the > perpetrator makes no specific claim). You are talking of fraud in modern times which is not really pertinent to the early 20th century. > As for "The style or title of Lady is part of one's name", that is > only correct with titles or names but not with styles, If a woman has the style of Lady Smith, this tells us the style is by right of her husband, that she is the wife of a titled person or a knight. If she is styled Lady Mary Smith, then the style is her own, something she has inherited as the daughter of a peer, or something she has been granted by the monarch. My great-grandmother was a Lady, by right of her husband, who was a knight. She sometimes styled herself "Dame". Her daughter was the wife of a baron, and the baron and the baroness never used their surname, but that of his title. If he was, for example, Bill Jones, Baron Middleton, he called himself Bill Middleton.