On 26/10/2015 10:41 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) via wrote: > In message <n0m5p6$bkv$2@dont-email.me>, Graeme Wall > <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> writes: >> On 26/10/2015 20:58, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: > [] >>> I'm not at all sure what sort of transport was available to the poor. >>> How would they undertake a large journey - not only the means of >>> transport (horse or on foot), but where they'd overnight (either mode of >>> transport - especially carrying all their goods and chattels, even if >>> they didn't have many - wouldn't cover many miles in a day) - isn't >>> clear to me. I'm _assuming_ stagecoach and the like was far beyond most >>> people. >> Walking for many of them, ox-cart for the lucky ones and those with >> large loads. Average speed of the latter would be 2mph if they were >> lucky. As for overnights, under a hedge or in a barn. Pilgrimage >> routes had shelters at appropriate intervals. There's one on the North >> Downs route to Canterbury that still exists near Maidstone. >> > So how did they feed themselves - let alone any animals - on a long > journey? A journey from, say, Norfolk to Northumberland would take > months at the above rate. (I have such in mine, a sudden widow with > about 9 children, but that was somewhere in 1882-1891, so probably > easier by then.) For Norfolk to Northumberland, sea passage was always a possibility. As well as fishing, for that particular route there was coal traffic from the 16th.century if not earlier (coals to Newcastle!) Sea passage was always a possibility for anywhere in reasonable reach of the coast. In earlier times places now thought of as "inland" were also ports - e.g. Norwich, Gloucester, and so on. From late 17th.cent increasing number of places linked by canal. Water was the transport of choice for goods from time immemorial - think of stone and timber for castles and cathedrals. The less affluent, if fit and healthy, could presumably 'work their passage'. Regards, John Henley

On Tue, 27 Oct 2015 13:33:15 -0400, "Percival P. Cassidy" <Nobody@NotMyISP.net> wrote: >Did US census records distinguish England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern >Ireland separately as "country of birth"? Or could "England" in, e.g., >the 1900 census cover all parts of the UK? US Census records are mostly self-reported to a pollster, and from a number of years of census searches it seems to largely depend on the family head's memory or preferences. -- Don Kirkman donsno2@charter.net

On 26/10/15 17:52, Chris Dickinson wrote: > On Monday, 26 October 2015 17:16:50 UTC, Ian Goddard wrote: >> On 26/10/15 13:58, Chris Dickinson wrote: %>< >>> The area that I study is largely rural. It could only support a limited population. Any surplus had to move somewhere else. >>> >> >> That raises an interesting question. Given the number of recurrences of >> the plague between the C14th & C17th to what extent did a surplus build up? > > > A standard view is that there was steady population growth after the Black Death. > > http://chartsbin.com/view/28k > > The last blips were the 1623 famine, the Civil War and the Great Plague. What's more, after the mid-seventeenth century, the home population increased despite migration to Ireland and the colonies. There was a substantial visitation of plague in 1558. Vol 1 of Collins transcription of the Kirkburton PRs lists many burials over the summer, often one or two parents and children. She contrasts the deaths from January to the end of September the previous year, 164 vs 64. It's possible some may have been missed as families may have buried their own dead: in the Almondbury PRs of the same period its recorded that over a period of a few days Thomas Scammonden and 4 of his children were buried by his remaining son and daughter at night, all having died of the plague. There was an even more severe outbreak in Kirkburton 1587 and probably in 1596. In addition to the Civil War deaths there were more deaths by plague in 1642/3. The KB registers don't cover 1623 so it's not possible to say what the effects were there. Prior to the Black Death there was a famine in the mid teens of the C14th which seems to have caused considerable loss of life. To this must be added losses in war, etc. Collins quotes White's Annals of Leeds and York which adds the effects of plague and the Marian religious upheaval and suggests that "the third part of the men of England are said to have been consumed". Substantial death tolls are also claimed for the C15th plague outbreaks. On the whole it seems likely that an upward trend in population would have been countered by a sequence of set-backs. -- Hotmail is my spam bin. Real address is ianng at austonley org uk

On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 17:40:24 +0000, Graeme Wall wrote [...] >>> The teacher/vicar still puzzles me about how he met his wife, he was >>> born in Hathern, Leics. She was born in Wrexham. He was a teacher in >>> Abergavenny and she was a teacher in Cardigan, right the other side of >>> Wales. >>> >> Do you know the in-laws' whereabouts at the relative times ? >> > >Hathern and Wrexham respectively! My theory is they met wherever they >did their training but I've no idea where that was likely to have been. > A bit like modern couples meeting at Uni. Or, again nowadays, people from different countries meeting at a conference in a third country..

On 27/10/2015 00:38, Charles Ellson via wrote: > Or transfer of the records to somewhere outwith the control of the > relevant Registrar General ? > How could that be achieved at present any place that contains the central registers is deemed to be part of the GRO and under the control of the Registrar General? Cheers Guy

Find My Past have just announced that the 1939 register will be available on from Monday 2nd November 2015. Records will be available to purchase for £6.95 per household, or £24.95 for a 5 household bundle (£4.99 per household). It seems a bit pricey but they did put a lot of work into it. Findmypast subscribers will be entitled to a discount. Happy Hunting everyone.

On 27/10/2015 01:21, Charles Ellson wrote: > http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/teacher-training/ > mentions > "Training schools and colleges (also called ‘normal schools’). > Initially started by the charities the British Society and the > National Society in the early 19th century to train teachers in their > elementary schools", > pupil-teacher training from 1846 and - > "These [normal schools and training colleges] were residential > colleges run by voluntary societies with some government subsidy. > Training colleges were first set up in the early 19th century and many > came to be modelled on Battersea Normal School, established in 1841." > > It doesn't seem to have any direct references to the National Society. > Googling for > > 19th century teacher training > > seems to throw up a few choices > > References to The National Society seem to be to the National Society > for Promoting Religious Education > [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_school_%28England_and_Wales%29] > which leads to > [http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/rd/N13569138] - > ("records, incl those of schools under its jurisdiction and committee > minute books 1811-1960" held by the Church of England Record Centre). > The society also has records held at Northamptonshire Record Office > (and other CROs ?) - > http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/c/F124253 > > This also comes up :- > Distinctive and inclusive : the National Society and Church of England > schools, 1811-2011 / Lois Loudon. > [http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/190035373?q&versionId=206897305] > 98pp pub 2012 > Online copy :- > https://www.churchofengland.org/media/1855527/distinctive%20and%20inclusive%20-%20the%20national%20society%20and%20church%20of%20england%20schools%201811%20-%202011.pdf > [http://tinyurl.com/ojmrtks] > although it doesn't seem to produce any immediately/directly useful > references but has got a books and articles reference list at the end. Thanks Charles, I'll get some reading done! -- Graeme Wall This account not read, substitute trains for rail.

On 26/10/2015 22:41, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: > In message <n0m5p6$bkv$2@dont-email.me>, Graeme Wall > <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> writes: >> On 26/10/2015 20:58, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: > [] >>> I'm not at all sure what sort of transport was available to the poor. >>> How would they undertake a large journey - not only the means of >>> transport (horse or on foot), but where they'd overnight (either mode of >>> transport - especially carrying all their goods and chattels, even if >>> they didn't have many - wouldn't cover many miles in a day) - isn't >>> clear to me. I'm _assuming_ stagecoach and the like was far beyond most >>> people. >> >> Walking for many of them, ox-cart for the lucky ones and those with >> large loads. Average speed of the latter would be 2mph if they were >> lucky. As for overnights, under a hedge or in a barn. Pilgrimage >> routes had shelters at appropriate intervals. There's one on the >> North Downs route to Canterbury that still exists near Maidstone. >> > So how did they feed themselves - let alone any animals - on a long > journey? Assuming the animals aren't cats and dogs they'd forage for themselves, as would their owners. Various religious establishments, and some secular ones, had a tradition of the travellers' dole whereby genuine travellers would get free food and water. The Hospice at St Cross, south of Winchester, still operates the system but you have to be on foot to qualify. Talking of animals, another way of lower classes meeting over great distances was the cattle/sheep droves taking animals to a big city. > A journey from, say, Norfolk to Northumberland would take > months at the above rate. (I have such in mine, a sudden widow with > about 9 children, but that was somewhere in 1882-1891, so probably > easier by then.) Got proper roads and railways by then so a lot easier. -- Graeme Wall This account not read, substitute trains for rail.

On Tuesday, 27 October 2015 12:25:55 UTC, Ian Goddard wrote: > On 26/10/15 17:52, Chris Dickinson wrote: > > On Monday, 26 October 2015 17:16:50 UTC, Ian Goddard wrote: > >> On 26/10/15 13:58, Chris Dickinson wrote: > %>< > >>> The area that I study is largely rural. It could only support a limited population. Any surplus had to move somewhere else. > >>> > >> > >> That raises an interesting question. Given the number of recurrences of > >> the plague between the C14th & C17th to what extent did a surplus build up? > > > > > > A standard view is that there was steady population growth after the Black Death. > > > > http://chartsbin.com/view/28k > > > > The last blips were the 1623 famine, the Civil War and the Great Plague. What's more, after the mid-seventeenth century, the home population increased despite migration to Ireland and the colonies. > > There was a substantial visitation of plague in 1558. Vol 1 of Collins > transcription of the Kirkburton PRs lists many burials over the summer, > often one or two parents and children. She contrasts the deaths from > January to the end of September the previous year, 164 vs 64. It's > possible some may have been missed as families may have buried their own > dead: in the Almondbury PRs of the same period its recorded that over a > period of a few days Thomas Scammonden and 4 of his children were buried > by his remaining son and daughter at night, all having died of the plague. > > There was an even more severe outbreak in Kirkburton 1587 and probably > in 1596. In addition to the Civil War deaths there were more deaths by > plague in 1642/3. > > The KB registers don't cover 1623 so it's not possible to say what the > effects were there. Prior to the Black Death there was a famine in the > mid teens of the C14th which seems to have caused considerable loss of > life. To this must be added losses in war, etc. Collins quotes White's > Annals of Leeds and York which adds the effects of plague and the Marian > religious upheaval and suggests that "the third part of the men of > England are said to have been consumed". > > Substantial death tolls are also claimed for the C15th plague outbreaks. > On the whole it seems likely that an upward trend in population would > have been countered by a sequence of set-backs. > > -- > Hotmail is my spam bin. Real address is ianng > at austonley org uk Yes, there were plague and famine in the sixteenth century. Even so, the figures as presented by Wiki below would suggest a substantial increase in population between 1541 and 1601. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_England Of course, some areas would not have followed the general trend. Whatever, the national population gew quickly after the 1660s, suggesting that there was an inherent surplus of births over deaths by then. And this was before the 'Agricultural Revolution' really got going. I mentioned the 1623 famine because that is traditionally seen as the last major famine in England. One way that you might be able to determine its severity in your area is by looking at your local probate index and counting the annual quantity. I did this a while back for West Cumberland, not expecting to see any hike (as I was assuming famine would hit the poor more than will-making yeomanry), but got this: 1619 44 1620 49 1621 3 1622 54 1623 158 1624 6 1625 4 1626 35 1627 52 Chris

On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 20:11:55 +0000, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote: >On 26/10/2015 18:35, Charles Ellson wrote: >> On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 17:40:24 +0000, Graeme Wall >> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote: >> >>> On 26/10/2015 16:52, Charles Ellson wrote: >>>> On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 07:53:48 +0000, Graeme Wall >>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 26/10/2015 00:48, Steve Hayes wrote: >>>>>> On Sun, 25 Oct 2015 22:03:56 +0000, Graeme Wall >>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 25/10/2015 20:40, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: >>>>>>>> In message <05c33620-c70a-4959-8a66-5dddf30c1c83@googlegroups.com>, >>>>>>>> melanie chesnel <mellychesnel@gmail.com> writes: >>>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 24, 2015 at 9:05:20 AM UTC+2, J. P. Gilliver >>>>>>>>> (John) wrote: >>>>>>>> [] >>>>>>>>>> In my own researches, I had assumed the coming of the railways in the >>>>>>>>>> mid to late 19C would have led to much greater migration around the >>>>>>>>>> country; however, I've found the effect was much less than I'd expected. >>>>>>>>>> Still, when doing research for work colleagues (at Rochester in Kent), I >>>>>>>>>> find quite a lot of them are from local areas. >>>>>>>> [] >>>>>>>>> I think even before the railways there was quite a lot of movement >>>>>>>>> over long distances in some families and notably mine. Both my >>>>>>>>> mother's and >>>>>>>> [] >>>>>>>>> This shows you can take nothing for granted about the movement of >>>>>>>>> people in the past. Each family is different and some were very >>>>>>>>> mobile, particularly mariners and artisans. Just think stone masons >>>>>>>>> building castles and cathederals v. ag labs >>>>>>>>> regards melanie chesnel >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Well, obviously I can only speak from my own researches - which are >>>>>>>> that, in an awful lot of cases, people didn't move much during their >>>>>>>> lifetime - even after the railways, and even in towns. Not just my own >>>>>>>> family (which is diverse - but comes from a lot of little clusters who >>>>>>>> mostly didn't move much), but research I've done for others too. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Occasionally you (I) _do_ find someone who's moved a long way; but, I've >>>>>>>> generally found them the exception. YMMV (well, clearly does). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Teachers and Churchmen! One of my wife's gg-grandfathers was both and, >>>>>>> as a National School teacher he moved from Abergavenny to Manchester via >>>>>>> Staffordshire, then remustered as a vicar and successively was in >>>>>>> Dumbarton, a Devonshire village, Oban, Aberdeen and finally died in >>>>>>> Guildford. >>>>>> >>>>>> One of my most puzzling ones was a gg grandfather, whose family came >>>>>> from the Isle of Axholme. He lived in Hull, got married in Bath, and >>>>>> Came to Natal within a month of getting married. I wondered how he >>>>>> came to meet his wife, as Hull and Bath seem quite far apart. The Bath >>>>>> family were from Belfast, and seem to have been from quite settled >>>>>> farmers in Ballynure before the 19th century, when they scattered to >>>>>> Quebec, Mauritius, Bath and Durban. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The teacher/vicar still puzzles me about how he met his wife, he was >>>>> born in Hathern, Leics. She was born in Wrexham. He was a teacher in >>>>> Abergavenny and she was a teacher in Cardigan, right the other side of >>>>> Wales. >>>>> >>>> Do you know the in-laws' whereabouts at the relative times ? >>>> >>> >>> Hathern and Wrexham respectively! My theory is they met wherever they >>> did their training but I've no idea where that was likely to have been. >>> A bit like modern couples meeting at Uni. >>> >> My father and his first wife were brought up in Willesden but AFAIAA >> met during teacher training in Exeter. >> > >Supports my theory. > >Where would National School teachers do their training around 1850? > http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/teacher-training/ mentions "Training schools and colleges (also called ‘normal schools’). Initially started by the charities the British Society and the National Society in the early 19th century to train teachers in their elementary schools", pupil-teacher training from 1846 and - "These [normal schools and training colleges] were residential colleges run by voluntary societies with some government subsidy. Training colleges were first set up in the early 19th century and many came to be modelled on Battersea Normal School, established in 1841." It doesn't seem to have any direct references to the National Society. Googling for 19th century teacher training seems to throw up a few choices References to The National Society seem to be to the National Society for Promoting Religious Education [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_school_%28England_and_Wales%29] which leads to [http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/rd/N13569138] - ("records, incl those of schools under its jurisdiction and committee minute books 1811-1960" held by the Church of England Record Centre). The society also has records held at Northamptonshire Record Office (and other CROs ?) - http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/c/F124253 This also comes up :- Distinctive and inclusive : the National Society and Church of England schools, 1811-2011 / Lois Loudon. [http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/190035373?q&versionId=206897305] 98pp pub 2012 Online copy :- https://www.churchofengland.org/media/1855527/distinctive%20and%20inclusive%20-%20the%20national%20society%20and%20church%20of%20england%20schools%201811%20-%202011.pdf [http://tinyurl.com/ojmrtks] although it doesn't seem to produce any immediately/directly useful references but has got a books and articles reference list at the end.

On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 21:37:58 +0000, Guy Etchells via <genbrit@rootsweb.com> wrote: >On 22/10/2015 12:26, Charles Ellson via wrote: >>> I thought the 100 year ruling had been challenged? >>> >> Weren't people being specifically told by 1921 that their census >> details would be secret for 100 years ? >> >> >The 1939 National Registration will be released next month. > >The 100 year rule was brought in by Statutory Instrument in 1966 and >repealed in 2000. >It is now nothing more than a non statutory office policy. > >The Census Act 1920 did not mention anything about the census being >withheld or private for 100 years. > >The Census (Confidentiality) Act 1991 which amends the Census Act 1920 >prevents any census taken under the Census Act 1920 from being released >ever. > That isn't how I read it as the 1920 Act addresses the taking and running of the census only so long as the records are in the custody of the Registrars General. It makes no reference to amending the Public Records Act 1958 and similar legislation; also it deals with penalties for unlawful disclosure of information, persons to which it applies and the penalties but it does not define what is unlawful disclosure. The 1920 Act only seems to concern itself with the specific forms of unlawful disclosure mentioned within it. >A change of law would be required to make that legal, otherwise it could >be released today. > Or transfer of the records to somewhere outwith the control of the relevant Registrar General ?

In message <n0m5p6$bkv$2@dont-email.me>, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> writes: >On 26/10/2015 20:58, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: [] >> I'm not at all sure what sort of transport was available to the poor. >> How would they undertake a large journey - not only the means of >> transport (horse or on foot), but where they'd overnight (either mode of >> transport - especially carrying all their goods and chattels, even if >> they didn't have many - wouldn't cover many miles in a day) - isn't >> clear to me. I'm _assuming_ stagecoach and the like was far beyond most >> people. > >Walking for many of them, ox-cart for the lucky ones and those with >large loads. Average speed of the latter would be 2mph if they were >lucky. As for overnights, under a hedge or in a barn. Pilgrimage >routes had shelters at appropriate intervals. There's one on the North >Downs route to Canterbury that still exists near Maidstone. > So how did they feed themselves - let alone any animals - on a long journey? A journey from, say, Norfolk to Northumberland would take months at the above rate. (I have such in mine, a sudden widow with about 9 children, but that was somewhere in 1882-1891, so probably easier by then.) -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf And every day in Britain, 33 properties are sold for around that price [a million pounds or so]. - Jane Rackham, RT 2015/4/11-17

On 22/10/2015 12:26, Charles Ellson via wrote: >> I thought the 100 year ruling had been challenged? >> > Weren't people being specifically told by 1921 that their census > details would be secret for 100 years ? > > The 1939 National Registration will be released next month. The 100 year rule was brought in by Statutory Instrument in 1966 and repealed in 2000. It is now nothing more than a non statutory office policy. The Census Act 1920 did not mention anything about the census being withheld or private for 100 years. The Census (Confidentiality) Act 1991 which amends the Census Act 1920 prevents any census taken under the Census Act 1920 from being released ever. A change of law would be required to make that legal, otherwise it could be released today. Cheers Guy

On 26/10/2015 20:58, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: > In message <100cc24d-fa78-4119-8f5c-43117cbcd6ef@googlegroups.com>, > melanie chesnel <mellychesnel@gmail.com> writes: > [] >> slightest of opportunities to roam. What I find interesting is both my >> mother and father came from mobile families. Although on the surface >> my mum's working class northern background was different to my dad's >> middle class home counties their families were very similar back in >> the 18th century - one both sides they were butcher's, metal workers >> of one sort or another, coach builders, shipwrights and carpenters, >> yeoman farmers and a surprising number owned pubs or were malsters or >> dealers in beer! >> regards melanie chesnel > > I have a feeling that most of those were moderately prosperous > professions - not sure about the butcher, but I'd guess he'd own a horse > as part of his trade, for moving meat about. > > I'm not at all sure what sort of transport was available to the poor. > How would they undertake a large journey - not only the means of > transport (horse or on foot), but where they'd overnight (either mode of > transport - especially carrying all their goods and chattels, even if > they didn't have many - wouldn't cover many miles in a day) - isn't > clear to me. I'm _assuming_ stagecoach and the like was far beyond most > people. Walking for many of them, ox-cart for the lucky ones and those with large loads. Average speed of the latter would be 2mph if they were lucky. As for overnights, under a hedge or in a barn. Pilgrimage routes had shelters at appropriate intervals. There's one on the North Downs route to Canterbury that still exists near Maidstone. -- Graeme Wall This account not read, substitute trains for rail.

In message <100cc24d-fa78-4119-8f5c-43117cbcd6ef@googlegroups.com>, melanie chesnel <mellychesnel@gmail.com> writes: [] >slightest of opportunities to roam. What I find interesting is both my >mother and father came from mobile families. Although on the surface my >mum's working class northern background was different to my dad's >middle class home counties their families were very similar back in >the 18th century - one both sides they were butcher's, metal workers of >one sort or another, coach builders, shipwrights and carpenters, yeoman >farmers and a surprising number owned pubs or were malsters or dealers >in beer! >regards melanie chesnel I have a feeling that most of those were moderately prosperous professions - not sure about the butcher, but I'd guess he'd own a horse as part of his trade, for moving meat about. I'm not at all sure what sort of transport was available to the poor. How would they undertake a large journey - not only the means of transport (horse or on foot), but where they'd overnight (either mode of transport - especially carrying all their goods and chattels, even if they didn't have many - wouldn't cover many miles in a day) - isn't clear to me. I'm _assuming_ stagecoach and the like was far beyond most people. -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf You can be tough without being rude - Nick Clegg, 2014 July

On 26/10/2015 18:35, Charles Ellson wrote: > On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 17:40:24 +0000, Graeme Wall > <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote: > >> On 26/10/2015 16:52, Charles Ellson wrote: >>> On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 07:53:48 +0000, Graeme Wall >>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote: >>> >>>> On 26/10/2015 00:48, Steve Hayes wrote: >>>>> On Sun, 25 Oct 2015 22:03:56 +0000, Graeme Wall >>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 25/10/2015 20:40, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: >>>>>>> In message <05c33620-c70a-4959-8a66-5dddf30c1c83@googlegroups.com>, >>>>>>> melanie chesnel <mellychesnel@gmail.com> writes: >>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 24, 2015 at 9:05:20 AM UTC+2, J. P. Gilliver >>>>>>>> (John) wrote: >>>>>>> [] >>>>>>>>> In my own researches, I had assumed the coming of the railways in the >>>>>>>>> mid to late 19C would have led to much greater migration around the >>>>>>>>> country; however, I've found the effect was much less than I'd expected. >>>>>>>>> Still, when doing research for work colleagues (at Rochester in Kent), I >>>>>>>>> find quite a lot of them are from local areas. >>>>>>> [] >>>>>>>> I think even before the railways there was quite a lot of movement >>>>>>>> over long distances in some families and notably mine. Both my >>>>>>>> mother's and >>>>>>> [] >>>>>>>> This shows you can take nothing for granted about the movement of >>>>>>>> people in the past. Each family is different and some were very >>>>>>>> mobile, particularly mariners and artisans. Just think stone masons >>>>>>>> building castles and cathederals v. ag labs >>>>>>>> regards melanie chesnel >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Well, obviously I can only speak from my own researches - which are >>>>>>> that, in an awful lot of cases, people didn't move much during their >>>>>>> lifetime - even after the railways, and even in towns. Not just my own >>>>>>> family (which is diverse - but comes from a lot of little clusters who >>>>>>> mostly didn't move much), but research I've done for others too. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Occasionally you (I) _do_ find someone who's moved a long way; but, I've >>>>>>> generally found them the exception. YMMV (well, clearly does). >>>>>> >>>>>> Teachers and Churchmen! One of my wife's gg-grandfathers was both and, >>>>>> as a National School teacher he moved from Abergavenny to Manchester via >>>>>> Staffordshire, then remustered as a vicar and successively was in >>>>>> Dumbarton, a Devonshire village, Oban, Aberdeen and finally died in >>>>>> Guildford. >>>>> >>>>> One of my most puzzling ones was a gg grandfather, whose family came >>>>> from the Isle of Axholme. He lived in Hull, got married in Bath, and >>>>> Came to Natal within a month of getting married. I wondered how he >>>>> came to meet his wife, as Hull and Bath seem quite far apart. The Bath >>>>> family were from Belfast, and seem to have been from quite settled >>>>> farmers in Ballynure before the 19th century, when they scattered to >>>>> Quebec, Mauritius, Bath and Durban. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> The teacher/vicar still puzzles me about how he met his wife, he was >>>> born in Hathern, Leics. She was born in Wrexham. He was a teacher in >>>> Abergavenny and she was a teacher in Cardigan, right the other side of >>>> Wales. >>>> >>> Do you know the in-laws' whereabouts at the relative times ? >>> >> >> Hathern and Wrexham respectively! My theory is they met wherever they >> did their training but I've no idea where that was likely to have been. >> A bit like modern couples meeting at Uni. >> > My father and his first wife were brought up in Willesden but AFAIAA > met during teacher training in Exeter. > Supports my theory. Where would National School teachers do their training around 1850? -- Graeme Wall This account not read, substitute trains for rail.

On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 17:40:24 +0000, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote: >On 26/10/2015 16:52, Charles Ellson wrote: >> On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 07:53:48 +0000, Graeme Wall >> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote: >> >>> On 26/10/2015 00:48, Steve Hayes wrote: >>>> On Sun, 25 Oct 2015 22:03:56 +0000, Graeme Wall >>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 25/10/2015 20:40, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: >>>>>> In message <05c33620-c70a-4959-8a66-5dddf30c1c83@googlegroups.com>, >>>>>> melanie chesnel <mellychesnel@gmail.com> writes: >>>>>>> On Saturday, October 24, 2015 at 9:05:20 AM UTC+2, J. P. Gilliver >>>>>>> (John) wrote: >>>>>> [] >>>>>>>> In my own researches, I had assumed the coming of the railways in the >>>>>>>> mid to late 19C would have led to much greater migration around the >>>>>>>> country; however, I've found the effect was much less than I'd expected. >>>>>>>> Still, when doing research for work colleagues (at Rochester in Kent), I >>>>>>>> find quite a lot of them are from local areas. >>>>>> [] >>>>>>> I think even before the railways there was quite a lot of movement >>>>>>> over long distances in some families and notably mine. Both my >>>>>>> mother's and >>>>>> [] >>>>>>> This shows you can take nothing for granted about the movement of >>>>>>> people in the past. Each family is different and some were very >>>>>>> mobile, particularly mariners and artisans. Just think stone masons >>>>>>> building castles and cathederals v. ag labs >>>>>>> regards melanie chesnel >>>>>> >>>>>> Well, obviously I can only speak from my own researches - which are >>>>>> that, in an awful lot of cases, people didn't move much during their >>>>>> lifetime - even after the railways, and even in towns. Not just my own >>>>>> family (which is diverse - but comes from a lot of little clusters who >>>>>> mostly didn't move much), but research I've done for others too. >>>>>> >>>>>> Occasionally you (I) _do_ find someone who's moved a long way; but, I've >>>>>> generally found them the exception. YMMV (well, clearly does). >>>>> >>>>> Teachers and Churchmen! One of my wife's gg-grandfathers was both and, >>>>> as a National School teacher he moved from Abergavenny to Manchester via >>>>> Staffordshire, then remustered as a vicar and successively was in >>>>> Dumbarton, a Devonshire village, Oban, Aberdeen and finally died in >>>>> Guildford. >>>> >>>> One of my most puzzling ones was a gg grandfather, whose family came >>>> from the Isle of Axholme. He lived in Hull, got married in Bath, and >>>> Came to Natal within a month of getting married. I wondered how he >>>> came to meet his wife, as Hull and Bath seem quite far apart. The Bath >>>> family were from Belfast, and seem to have been from quite settled >>>> farmers in Ballynure before the 19th century, when they scattered to >>>> Quebec, Mauritius, Bath and Durban. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> The teacher/vicar still puzzles me about how he met his wife, he was >>> born in Hathern, Leics. She was born in Wrexham. He was a teacher in >>> Abergavenny and she was a teacher in Cardigan, right the other side of >>> Wales. >>> >> Do you know the in-laws' whereabouts at the relative times ? >> > >Hathern and Wrexham respectively! My theory is they met wherever they >did their training but I've no idea where that was likely to have been. > A bit like modern couples meeting at Uni. > My father and his first wife were brought up in Willesden but AFAIAA met during teacher training in Exeter.

On 26/10/2015 16:52, Charles Ellson wrote: > On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 07:53:48 +0000, Graeme Wall > <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote: > >> On 26/10/2015 00:48, Steve Hayes wrote: >>> On Sun, 25 Oct 2015 22:03:56 +0000, Graeme Wall >>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote: >>> >>>> On 25/10/2015 20:40, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: >>>>> In message <05c33620-c70a-4959-8a66-5dddf30c1c83@googlegroups.com>, >>>>> melanie chesnel <mellychesnel@gmail.com> writes: >>>>>> On Saturday, October 24, 2015 at 9:05:20 AM UTC+2, J. P. Gilliver >>>>>> (John) wrote: >>>>> [] >>>>>>> In my own researches, I had assumed the coming of the railways in the >>>>>>> mid to late 19C would have led to much greater migration around the >>>>>>> country; however, I've found the effect was much less than I'd expected. >>>>>>> Still, when doing research for work colleagues (at Rochester in Kent), I >>>>>>> find quite a lot of them are from local areas. >>>>> [] >>>>>> I think even before the railways there was quite a lot of movement >>>>>> over long distances in some families and notably mine. Both my >>>>>> mother's and >>>>> [] >>>>>> This shows you can take nothing for granted about the movement of >>>>>> people in the past. Each family is different and some were very >>>>>> mobile, particularly mariners and artisans. Just think stone masons >>>>>> building castles and cathederals v. ag labs >>>>>> regards melanie chesnel >>>>> >>>>> Well, obviously I can only speak from my own researches - which are >>>>> that, in an awful lot of cases, people didn't move much during their >>>>> lifetime - even after the railways, and even in towns. Not just my own >>>>> family (which is diverse - but comes from a lot of little clusters who >>>>> mostly didn't move much), but research I've done for others too. >>>>> >>>>> Occasionally you (I) _do_ find someone who's moved a long way; but, I've >>>>> generally found them the exception. YMMV (well, clearly does). >>>> >>>> Teachers and Churchmen! One of my wife's gg-grandfathers was both and, >>>> as a National School teacher he moved from Abergavenny to Manchester via >>>> Staffordshire, then remustered as a vicar and successively was in >>>> Dumbarton, a Devonshire village, Oban, Aberdeen and finally died in >>>> Guildford. >>> >>> One of my most puzzling ones was a gg grandfather, whose family came >>> from the Isle of Axholme. He lived in Hull, got married in Bath, and >>> Came to Natal within a month of getting married. I wondered how he >>> came to meet his wife, as Hull and Bath seem quite far apart. The Bath >>> family were from Belfast, and seem to have been from quite settled >>> farmers in Ballynure before the 19th century, when they scattered to >>> Quebec, Mauritius, Bath and Durban. >>> >>> >> >> The teacher/vicar still puzzles me about how he met his wife, he was >> born in Hathern, Leics. She was born in Wrexham. He was a teacher in >> Abergavenny and she was a teacher in Cardigan, right the other side of >> Wales. >> > Do you know the in-laws' whereabouts at the relative times ? > Hathern and Wrexham respectively! My theory is they met wherever they did their training but I've no idea where that was likely to have been. A bit like modern couples meeting at Uni. -- Graeme Wall This account not read, substitute trains for rail.

On 26/10/15 13:58, Chris Dickinson wrote: > On Saturday, 24 October 2015 06:15:53 UTC+1, Steve Hayes wrote: >> Britons still live in Anglo-Saxon tribal kingdoms, Oxford University >> finds >> >> A new genetic map of Britain shows that there has been little movement >> between areas of Britain which were former tribal kingoms in >> Anglo-Saxon England > <snip> > > > That a core population has remained doesn't say anything about movement. > > The area that I study is largely rural. It could only support a limited population. Any surplus had to move somewhere else. > That raises an interesting question. Given the number of recurrences of the plague between the C14th & C17th to what extent did a surplus build up? -- Hotmail is my spam bin. Real address is ianng at austonley org uk

On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 07:53:48 +0000, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote: >On 26/10/2015 00:48, Steve Hayes wrote: >> On Sun, 25 Oct 2015 22:03:56 +0000, Graeme Wall >> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote: >> >>> On 25/10/2015 20:40, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: >>>> In message <05c33620-c70a-4959-8a66-5dddf30c1c83@googlegroups.com>, >>>> melanie chesnel <mellychesnel@gmail.com> writes: >>>>> On Saturday, October 24, 2015 at 9:05:20 AM UTC+2, J. P. Gilliver >>>>> (John) wrote: >>>> [] >>>>>> In my own researches, I had assumed the coming of the railways in the >>>>>> mid to late 19C would have led to much greater migration around the >>>>>> country; however, I've found the effect was much less than I'd expected. >>>>>> Still, when doing research for work colleagues (at Rochester in Kent), I >>>>>> find quite a lot of them are from local areas. >>>> [] >>>>> I think even before the railways there was quite a lot of movement >>>>> over long distances in some families and notably mine. Both my >>>>> mother's and >>>> [] >>>>> This shows you can take nothing for granted about the movement of >>>>> people in the past. Each family is different and some were very >>>>> mobile, particularly mariners and artisans. Just think stone masons >>>>> building castles and cathederals v. ag labs >>>>> regards melanie chesnel >>>> >>>> Well, obviously I can only speak from my own researches - which are >>>> that, in an awful lot of cases, people didn't move much during their >>>> lifetime - even after the railways, and even in towns. Not just my own >>>> family (which is diverse - but comes from a lot of little clusters who >>>> mostly didn't move much), but research I've done for others too. >>>> >>>> Occasionally you (I) _do_ find someone who's moved a long way; but, I've >>>> generally found them the exception. YMMV (well, clearly does). >>> >>> Teachers and Churchmen! One of my wife's gg-grandfathers was both and, >>> as a National School teacher he moved from Abergavenny to Manchester via >>> Staffordshire, then remustered as a vicar and successively was in >>> Dumbarton, a Devonshire village, Oban, Aberdeen and finally died in >>> Guildford. >> >> One of my most puzzling ones was a gg grandfather, whose family came >> from the Isle of Axholme. He lived in Hull, got married in Bath, and >> Came to Natal within a month of getting married. I wondered how he >> came to meet his wife, as Hull and Bath seem quite far apart. The Bath >> family were from Belfast, and seem to have been from quite settled >> farmers in Ballynure before the 19th century, when they scattered to >> Quebec, Mauritius, Bath and Durban. >> >> > >The teacher/vicar still puzzles me about how he met his wife, he was >born in Hathern, Leics. She was born in Wrexham. He was a teacher in >Abergavenny and she was a teacher in Cardigan, right the other side of >Wales. > Do you know the in-laws' whereabouts at the relative times ?