I don't subscribe to FMP but will sport a few pounds to solve one of my dead ends. I have mentioned before that James Lefevre was born in 1870, baptised, 1871 census then nothing until his death in 1945. Found that he married in 1890, as James Williams. Had seven children, could follow his movements from the church registers, always in the Shadwell area of London. 1911 census, with wife and four surviving children, aged from 20 to 1. His wife died in 1919, and he then moved house, and is in a house with several others on the electoral roll, among them Leah Robins and Elizabeth Shea. Later learned that these two were war widows. He stays at this address, 16 Station Street until the street is being demolished in 1936. Can't find him in 1937, but in 1938 and 1939 He is with Elizabeth Shea and Edward Shea, later learned that he was her son, living at 10 Stephen House, St Katherines Way, Stepney. In the first 1945 electoral roll this is the same, but the later one shows Elizabeth only. James died in March 1945 as James Lefever, Elizabeth died in 1952 and Edward would have been in the forces at that time. So my problem is why live for 50 years as Williams then change back? My hope was that there might be some annotation to explain this. Disappointed. Doesn't show under either name, nor Elizabeth Shea. So try address. According to the record there is only one house in St Katherine's Way, No 21, the Leightons living there. Tried Stephen House, only one entry, No31, the Ray's, although there are 38 family units on the 1939 Electoral Roll. Then I tried names of people who are in both the 1939 and the later 1945, in both Stephen House, St Katherine's Way and Matilda House, St Katherine's Way, and nothing shows up. I conclude there is something very incomplete about this list. Alec Lefevre --

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:dakt9kF3ct5U1@mid.individual.net... > >Has anyone encountered the names Isaac and John being used interchangeably? >I'm trying to untangle the Kemish family of Michelmersh, Hants in the late >17th / early 18th century, and a lot of things would slot neatly into place >if the Isaac who appears in the parish registers in the 1680s was the same >man as the John who appears in the 1670s and 1690s. But I've heard heard >of them being treated as a single name before. Has anyone else? > >Richard I have an ancestor born and baptised Isaac but every so often he crops up as John Isaac or Isaac John. It has cropped up in marriage banns and his son's military records. Unfortunately he lived so long ago there is no one alive who can give an answer to this. Gordon

On Monday, 2 November 2015 09:19:05 UTC, eve via wrote: > > On Tuesday, 27 October 2015 20:35:20 UTC, Ian Goddard wrote: > > > On 27/10/15 13:07, Chris Dickinson wrote: > > > > I mentioned the 1623 famine because that is traditionally seen as the last major famine in England. One way that you might be able to determine its severity in your area is by looking at your local probate index and counting the annual quantity. I did this a while back for West Cumberland, not expecting to see any hike (as I was assuming famine would hit the poor more than will-making yeomanry), but got this: > > > > > > > > 1619 44 > > > > 1620 49 > > > > 1621 3 > > > > 1622 54 > > > > 1623 158 > > > > 1624 6 > > > > 1625 4 > > > > 1626 35 > > > > 1627 52 > > > > > > That's a very impressive series of figures there, Chris. > > I remember many years ago that Colin Rogers gave a lecture on the > 'Lancashire famine' of 1623, which he had identified. There was also a > couple of bad dearth years in )approx) 1715-17, which affected the more > southerly areas at least - and in Bucks, the housewives got together and > ambushed a waggon bringing in what little corn there was, which Mr X > intended to sell a a huge profit. The magistartes were sympathtic for once - > X wasn't a popular character. > EVE > > Author of The McLaughlin Guides for Family Historians > Secretary, Bucks Genealogical Society Thank you, Eve. I'm strongly tempted to do some proper research (maybe in a couple of years time) on the West Cumberland famine; and that would involve reading about 1623 experiences elsewhere. So I'll have a look then for any written record of Colin Rogers' work. Chris

On Friday, 13 November 2015 19:03:15 UTC, Gordon wrote: > > I have an ancestor born and baptised Isaac but every so often he crops up as > John Isaac or Isaac John. > It has cropped up in marriage banns and his son's military records. > Unfortunately he lived so long ago there is no one alive who can give an > answer to this. > > Gordon But in this period? Two forenames were uncommon. Chris

On 13/11/15 01:38, Richard Smith wrote: > Has anyone encountered the names Isaac and John being used > interchangeably? I'm trying to untangle the Kemish family of > Michelmersh, Hants in the late 17th / early 18th century, and a lot of > things would slot neatly into place if the Isaac who appears in the > parish registers in the 1680s was the same man as the John who appears > in the 1670s and 1690s. But I've heard heard of them being treated as a > single name before. Has anyone else? No, but at that time I have "Jacobus Kennerley aut Petrus Kennerwelley" in this thread: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENBRIT/2010-02/1265754083 (The variation in surname isn't significant. The surname derives from a Cheshire village which was variously Kennerley or Kenworthy. You won't find in on the map; as far as I can make out it's under the M60/M56 junction.) That's never really been resolved but one possibility was that the name change marked a religious conversion and another that he was trying to cover his political past. Perhaps John was active against the interests of Charles II's brother prior to him becoming James II & found it convenient to become Isaac until the Glorious Revolution. -- Hotmail is my spam bin. Real address is ianng at austonley org uk

On Friday, 13 November 2015 01:39:04 UTC, Richard Smith wrote: > Has anyone encountered the names Isaac and John being used > interchangeably? I'm trying to untangle the Kemish family of > Michelmersh, Hants in the late 17th / early 18th century, and a lot of > things would slot neatly into place if the Isaac who appears in the > parish registers in the 1680s was the same man as the John who appears > in the 1670s and 1690s. But I've heard heard of them being treated as a > single name before. Has anyone else? > > Richard I've never come across this. There are two more likely explanations: If there aren't Kemish in the parish before this time, then John and Isaac may have both arrived in the parish at the same time (for some job reason perhaps). If the surname is already established in the parish, then you've probably got a gap in the records. Both of these individuals could have been born in the 'Commonwealth Gap' or some other register break. Or have been baptised in the mother's parish. So you wouldn't have seen them again until they start producing their own families. You may be able to resolve this by extending your record base. Serendipity can be wonderful. Chris

Has anyone encountered the names Isaac and John being used interchangeably? I'm trying to untangle the Kemish family of Michelmersh, Hants in the late 17th / early 18th century, and a lot of things would slot neatly into place if the Isaac who appears in the parish registers in the 1680s was the same man as the John who appears in the 1670s and 1690s. But I've heard heard of them being treated as a single name before. Has anyone else? Richard

On 12/11/2015 15:06, BobC wrote: > In article<da9rrhF99fbU1@mid.individual.net>, watt.tyler@gmail.com > says... >> >> On 08/11/2015 19:48, Jenny M Benson wrote: >>> On 04/11/2015 01:03, nick ashby via wrote: >>>> Have noticed,that if you find a person and make a note of the reference >>>> eg RG101/1600D/003/15,in advance search,TNA Reference and enter 1600D >>>> Piece number 003 Item number,no other details,this will show,a group of >>>> people and you can work out who is living with whom. >>> >>> I tried this the other day and it worked. To-day I am not seeing the >>> reference. Have FMP got wise and stopped showing that information on the >>> preview? >>> >> >> Yes, it does look different from the last time I looked. But, in one >> way, they're giving *more* information. >> >> For example, when I first searched for my parents by entering my >> father's name, the preview showed him and said that there was one other >> person (whom I assumed to be my mother) plus one who is officially >> locked (whom I assume to be my elder brother who would have been 5 or 6 >> at the time - I wasn't born) >> >> But when I looked today, it listed my father and said {my mother's name} >> is also on the record, plus one closed person. >> >> And when I looked for my widowed grandmother and my (then) 3 unmarried >> aunts and uncles who were living with her, a similar thing happened. >> Each time I searched for an explicit aunt or uncle, they were listed and >> it said that the record also contained {my grandmother} by name plus two >> other unnamed (but not locked - they were all born before 1910 and are >> all dead) people. >> >> So, if you've got a good idea as to who should be in a household, you >> can get pretty close to confirming it without spending any money! > > Today all I get when trying to preview any record is what was there some > days ago - name, reference and x more people. And now when you search > based on a specific address it only appears to show the head of > household, unlike a few days back when it showed all the non-redacted > occupants. > > Looks like they are closing the loopholes. > Well, it's still working for me in the same way it was when I last posted - e.g. also listing my mother (but no year of birth) when I search for my father. I wonder whether one's FMP subscription status makes any difference. I *do* have a UK subscription, but I haven't purchased any credits for the 1939 register. -- Cheers, Roger ____________ Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom checked.

In article <da9rrhF99fbU1@mid.individual.net>, watt.tyler@gmail.com says... > > On 08/11/2015 19:48, Jenny M Benson wrote: > > On 04/11/2015 01:03, nick ashby via wrote: > >> Have noticed,that if you find a person and make a note of the reference > >> eg RG101/1600D/003/15,in advance search,TNA Reference and enter 1600D > >> Piece number 003 Item number,no other details,this will show,a group of > >> people and you can work out who is living with whom. > > > > I tried this the other day and it worked. To-day I am not seeing the > > reference. Have FMP got wise and stopped showing that information on the > > preview? > > > > Yes, it does look different from the last time I looked. But, in one > way, they're giving *more* information. > > For example, when I first searched for my parents by entering my > father's name, the preview showed him and said that there was one other > person (whom I assumed to be my mother) plus one who is officially > locked (whom I assume to be my elder brother who would have been 5 or 6 > at the time - I wasn't born) > > But when I looked today, it listed my father and said {my mother's name} > is also on the record, plus one closed person. > > And when I looked for my widowed grandmother and my (then) 3 unmarried > aunts and uncles who were living with her, a similar thing happened. > Each time I searched for an explicit aunt or uncle, they were listed and > it said that the record also contained {my grandmother} by name plus two > other unnamed (but not locked - they were all born before 1910 and are > all dead) people. > > So, if you've got a good idea as to who should be in a household, you > can get pretty close to confirming it without spending any money! Today all I get when trying to preview any record is what was there some days ago - name, reference and x more people. And now when you search based on a specific address it only appears to show the head of household, unlike a few days back when it showed all the non-redacted occupants. Looks like they are closing the loopholes. -- BobC ==========

On Wednesday, November 11, 2015 at 11:42:05 AM UTC+1, melanie chesnel wrote: > On Wednesday, November 11, 2015 at 11:02:31 AM UTC+1, Anne Chambers wrote: > > melanie chesnel wrote: > > > > > > > > thanks for that . > > > 'Run 28 August 1856 at Shields' fits more or less with what I could see, it was the next bit which I thought might be Decd and took to mean deceased. Looking at an entry above this now looks more like Recd which I presume means "recorded". What the third bit says maybe writ 12/9/56. Do you think this means he jumped ship in "Sheilds" in August and his Uncle issued a writ for the broken indentures contract in September? Would "Sheilds" be Tyne side or somewhere else? > > > All very intriguing > > > regards melanie > > > > > I took 'Shields' to be South Shields, Tyneside > > > > -- > > Anne Chambers > > South Australia > > > > anne dot chambers at bigpond dot com > > thanks once again - I have spent the morning googling but can't find anything which explains the annotations on the register. There is a ship Tam O'Shanter registered at the time in Liverpool but no Ian O'Shanter registered anywhere in Britain at the time according to Http://www.crewlist.org.uk/data/vesselsalpha.php. If the William Fisher to whom he was indentured is the master of the ship, what ever its name, then it is more likely to be his Uncle's son rather than the uncle. There were several generations of William fishers in Winscales, Workington and Liverpool, all ship owners, masters or merchants which I am trying to get a grip on. It is all so tantalizing > regards melanie Just an update in case interested parties are following this: from http://mightyseas.perso.sfr.fr/marhist/workington_harrington/tam_oshanter.htm Lloyd's Register of Shipping 1837-8: Tam O'Shanter, 270 tons, owned by W.Fisher, registered at Whitehaven. Lloyd's Register of Shipping 1845-6: Tam O'Shanter, barque, 270 tons, owned by Fisher & Co., registered at Liverpool, voyage Liverpool - Jamaica. Mercantile Navy List 1857: Tam O'Shanter, 220 tons, official number 32888, registered at Liverpool. I still haven't found an expert who can explain exactly what the annotations in the register mean, but I am definitely making a connection between Cumbrian Fishers and Liverpool regards melanie

melanie chesnel wrote: > > thanks for that . > 'Run 28 August 1856 at Shields' fits more or less with what I could see, it was the next bit which I thought might be Decd and took to mean deceased. Looking at an entry above this now looks more like Recd which I presume means "recorded". What the third bit says maybe writ 12/9/56. Do you think this means he jumped ship in "Sheilds" in August and his Uncle issued a writ for the broken indentures contract in September? Would "Sheilds" be Tyne side or somewhere else? > All very intriguing > regards melanie > I took 'Shields' to be South Shields, Tyneside -- Anne Chambers South Australia anne dot chambers at bigpond dot com

On Wednesday, 11 November 2015 16:40:51 UTC, melanie chesnel wrote: |Fisher, William jun., 26, Winscales, maltster & Frances Sunton, 23, Arlecdon 07 Dec 1754| As you will be aware, 'Sunton' is a frequent spelling of the surname 'Sumpton'. 1754 is beyond the period that I research, but (given the prosperity), I would guess that the Sumptons of Wright Green (within spitting distance of Arlecdon) are her family - or at least the family of her ancestors. |18 May [1710] William Dixon, of Mockerkin, Cumbld., yeoman, and Anne Sherman, of Winskills, p. Workington. Bondsman: William Fisher, of Winskils, yeoman| I have on my list of things to do - the probate of Joseph Dixon of Mockerkin 1718, and William Dixon of Mockerkin 1715. I will have access to the appropriate microfilms tomorrow, but I have other more urgent things to look at, so it is most unlikely that I will have the time for Dixons. In due course, I will add them to the Early Families of Mockerkin section on my website. Chris

> Looking at LANCAT, I see that they have listed 69 probate entries for Winscales, some Fisher (which you probably have already). What you might not have is that 6 of these 69 have stated occupation as mariner: Christopher Thompson 1717, Thomas Thompson 1716, John Johnson 1768, Thomas Little 1816, John Mitchinson 1818, William Wilson 1822. Given the tight family networks in Cumberland, these might be worth looking at. > > Chris thanks for this new info above. You had already given me the Dickson connection and the BMD info last time we exchanged emails, but it may well be useful to others who come across this thread. The Thompson name crops up repeatedly in connection with the Fishers, so those probate entries are probably pertinent and I have added them to my to do list. I have a list of wills I need to look at in Cumberland - I need to spend a week in Whitehaven! Followed by a week in Preston to pin down the Liverpool connections. The Fishers seem to have business interests in shipping in Liverpool from the early 19th century. If anyone is interested this is what I have so far: William Fisher born in 1811 he was baptised in Saint Michael's at Workington on the 5th of October 1811. In 1846 he married Harriet Alice Jackson in Manchester and they are on the 1851 census living in Toxteth Park in Lancashire where he is given as a merchant ship owner. By 1881 aged 70 he is resident in Allithwaite in Lancashire and his occupation is given as magistrate. He also had a son called William Fisher who was born in 1845 Liverpool and is on the 1851 Census for Toxteth Park and the 1861 census at Everton. The head of the household is given as Harriet who is a merchant's wife so presumably her husband was not at home on the night of the census. William Fisher born in Winscales in 1785 this William is father to the above. He was baptised on the 27th of August 1785 in Saint Michael's Workington. His wife was Margaret Simon a spinster from Workington according to a marriage bond in Lancashire archives dated the 26th of March 1807. The grooms age is given as 21 and he is listed as Mariner from Windscale. The church in which the marriage was to take place is not given on the bond. Parsons and White's directory for Workington gives him as a shipowner resident in Priestgate in 1829. He is on the 1841 census as a merchant in Priestgate and in 1842 he is listed as a subscriber to Samuel Johnson's history of Allendale Above Derwent. There are two William Fisher is listed as subscribers William Fisher senior of Liverpool and William Fisher Junior of Workington, which suggests the Fishers had connections with Liverpool as early as the 1820s. In the Slater's Directory 1848 William Fisher and Son are given as shipowners at Priestgate Workington. And on the 1851 census this William is given in Church Street is a merchant shipowner. A document ref. no. DPW 2/10 in Carlisle record office gives the address of the ropery of William Fisher and Son as Lowsa or Lowsey lane in Priestgate. In February 1840 the Comptroller Of Her Majesty's Customs At The Port Of Whitehaven lists 2 ships out of Workington owned by William Fisher and others: the Winscales whose master is listed as Samuel Connolly and the brig Kelsick wood whose master was William Thompson. The Kelsick Wood was a brig, built by Kelsick Wood at Workington in 1813. She made several voyages between Liverpool and Quebec or Montreal, including in 1817 (Capt.Fisher), in 1824 (Capt.Joseph Porteous) 1825 (Capt.Porteous & Capt.Brown) and 1834 (Capt.Robinson). These voyages seem to have been as a cargo vessel. Her registry was transferred to Liverpool later by 1852 the Kelsick Wood was involved in the emigrant trade. The Kelsick Wood must have been lost between 1852 and 1857, since she does not appear in the Mercantile Navy List of that year. The Winscales was a full-rigged ship, built at the Workington shipyard of Thomas Peile & Co., and launched on Saturday, 25thof March 1826. Under the command of Captain Willliam Fisher she made her first voyage from Workington to Quebec. The Winscales spent her early career in the trade to Quebec, under the command of Capts.Fisher, Brown and Connolly. She was sold to London owners and spent the years 1847-9 in the trade to Australia. A document in Cumbria record office, DPW 2/9 1830 - 1844, includes a lease by Ann Borradaile of Workington widow and Henderson Borradaile of Workington gent., to Fisher, Bushby, Steel, all of Liverpool, shipowners and shipbuilders, and others of Seaton and Camerton for a plot in Priestgate in the Ropewalk Close, with the ropewalk, rigging-loft, warehouses, etc. 1830, 1831, 1838 - 1844. This again seems to indicate a business connection with Liverpool which merits further investigation. William Fisher born 1756, died 1815 this William is father to the above.. He was baptised in Saint Michael's Workington on the 31st of January 1756. He married Jane Younghusband on the 6th of April 1784 in Broomfield in Cumberland and she was mother to William Fisher born in 1785. William and Jane had three sons the William Fisher above was the eldest. Their second son John Fisher was a Butcher in Workington and he is my fourth great-grandfather. Their third son was Isaac Fisher who never married, lived in Seaton and was also a shipowner and a master mariner. Jane died some time before 1796 and William remarried to Martha Irvin on the 6th of April 1796 and they went on to have several children. The UK land tax redemption of 1798 gives William Fisher as resident in Winscales. The marriage bond dated the 5th of April 1796 for William Fisher and Martha Irvin gives his place of residence as Winscales and states that she was a spinster aged 22. A list of ships registered in Workington in 1811 seems to show that the were several Fishers and Younghusbands who were involved in owning ships or as Mariners: nonsuch - j younghusband capt swallow - bell w fisher capt jane and mary - j fisher capt mary br 165 - t fisher capt owner s fisher & co senhouse and richard - j paxton w younghusband & co owners lord donnegal - j crenell w younghusband owners This William died in 1815 and administration was granted to his widow Martha Fisher, Joseph Thompson a gentleman of Workington and his son William Fisher master mariner of Workington in Cumberland William Fisher born about 1727 died before 1777 this William is father to the above.. For this William I have a possible baptism at St Michaels Workington 30 sept 1727 from IGI which is based on the fact that all his children are baptised in St Michals and on his age in an extract from Lancaster Marriage Bonds: Fisher, William jun., 26, Winscales, maltster & Frances Sunton, 23, Arlecdon 07 Dec 1754 Collection: Lancashire, Westmoreland: - Marriage Bonds, Deaneries of Lonsdale Kendal Furness and Copeland and Amounderness (Archdeaconry of Richmond), 1746-1755 The marriage took place the next day in Arlecdon. As this extract gives him as William jnr it would suggest his father is also a William, but the Workington baptism gives the father's name as John whose family comes from the Papcastle area so given the will of his father which names his wife as Francis this baptism can"t be right. The only suitable baptism I can find for William Fisher, father William is on 07 May 1727 at ST NICHOLAS,WHITEHAVEN. Logically the baptismal records for Winscale families should be at Workington, but I am inclined to think they are not at St Michal's because a cousin actually looked at the registers and couldn't get back beyond Wiliam (1827). William Fisher died 1777 this William is father to the above. A possible marriage for this William Fisher, maybe second mariage - 18 Apr William Fisher of Winscales and Eliz. Beeby of Workington, wid. Bndsmn.: John Fisher of Workington. At p. church of Workington. Witn.: Stan. Leathes, Wm. Boucher. Book: Lancaster Marriage Bonds. (Marriage Bond) Collection: Lancashire & Westmoreland: - Marriage Bonds, Deaneries of Lonsdale Kendal Furness Copeland and Amounderness (Archdeaconry of Richmond), 1734-1738. ( no exact date on Ancestry record) appears as a bondsmen given the occupation of maltster from Winscales in documents in 1743 and 1736: 17 Dec 1736 John Fisher, mariner and Eleanor Thompson, spr., both of p. Workington. Bndsmn.: Wm. Fisher of same place, maltster. At. p. church of Harrington. Witn.: Willm. Brisco. Book: Lancaster Marriage Bonds. (Marriage Bond) Collection: Lancashire & Westmoreland: - Marriage Bonds, Deaneries of Lonsdale Kendal Furness Copeland and Amounderness (Archdeaconry of Richmond), 1734-1738. 20 Sep 1743 Henry Harrison, mariner & Mary Steele, both Workington. Bn: William Fisher, Winscales, Workington, maltster. At Workington. Book: Lancaster Marriage Bonds (Marriage Bond) Collection: Lancashire, Westmoreland: - Marriage Bonds, Deaneries of Lonsdale Kendal Furness Copeland and Amounderness (Archdeaconry of Richmond) 1739-1745 2) W/RW/C/R266A/24 Probate records at Preston MM2162 frame 78 microfilm at Whitehaven Date 13 FEB 1777 Testator's name: WILLIAM, SNR FISHER Occupation/status: YEOMAN Township: WINSCALES Parish: WORKINGTON In the name of God Amen. William fisher the Elder of Winscales in the parish of Workington in the county of Cumberland Yeoman being sick of body and of sound and disposing mind and memory (praise be to God for the same) and being ???? my worldly affairs whilst I have the strength and the capacity so to do I make and publish this my last will and testament in the manner following (that is to say) Imprimis I give devise and bequeath to my grandson William Fisher of Winscales his heirs and assigns for ever, all those my ????? messuages and tenements and the lands and grounds thereunto belonging with these and every appurtenaces and also all other my real and personal estate whatsoever and where so ever where of I am seized or to which I am in any wise intitled in possesion reversion remainder or appectancy. To hold the same premises unto and to the use of my said grandson Willam Fisher and his heirs and assigns forever subject to the payment of all the bequests and legacies as herin after mentioned appraised and declared and which I hereby make a charge and lien upon all the said premisses, and do herby subject my said grandson, William Fisher to pay the same accordingly. I give and bequeath to my son Isaac fisher two hundred and twenty pounds to be paid to him when he attains the age of twenty one years. I also give and bequeath to my granddaughter Isabella Fisher two hundred and eighty pounds and my silver cup and trunk to be paid and delivered to her when she attains the age of twenty one years. I also give and bequeath to my daughter in law Frances Fisher, widow of my son William fisher deceased the sum of seven pounds a year as long as she continues his widow and unmarried, the first payment to commence from the time of my decease. I also give and bequeath to my daughter in law Frances Fisher the sum of three pounds a year to be paid to her until my said grandson Isaac Fisher should attain his age of twentyone years for and towards his maintenance and education. I also give and bequeath to my said daughter Frances Fisher the furthur sum of three pounds a year to be paid to her until my said granddaughter Isabella Fisher shall attain the age of twenty one years for and towards her maintenance and education. Lastly I hereby nominate consitute and appoint my said grandson William Fisher sole executor of this my last will and testament therby revoking and making void all former and other will and wills made by me at any time heretofore made and declare this only to be my last will and testament. William Fisher died 1734 Possible father of the above probably married Mary Winder - William Fisher married Mary Winder, both of Winskails, 3 July 1694 in Workington registers. inventory and bond of administration. : W/RW/C/R217A/67 Probate records at Preston / HK842 frame 514 Whitehaven microfilm reference Testator's name: WILLIAM FISHER Occupation/status: YEOMAN Place: WINSCALES WORKINGTON 11 Oct 1734 born ? Died 1734. executor John Fisher of Winskails, mariner. Had shares in ships worth £30, left £210 5s 0d in total. This is probably the same John Fisher who married Eleanor Thompson in 1736 and also appears as a bondsmen in the same year. 17 Dec 1736 John Fisher, mariner and Eleanor Thompson, spr., both of p. Workington. Bndsmn.: Wm. Fisher of same place, maltster. At. p. church of Harrington. Witn.: Willm. Brisco. Book: Lancaster Marriage Bonds. (Marriage Bond) Collection: Lancashire & Westmoreland: - Marriage Bonds, Deaneries of Lonsdale Kendal Furness Copeland and Amounderness (Archdeaconry of Richmond), 1734-1738. The exact relationship between this William Fisher and the John Fisher who was executor of his will is unclear. It is probably this William who appears as a bondsmen in 1710 and if the William who died in 1693 is this William's father then he had a daughter Ann born in 1697 and baptised in Workington 18 May [1710] William Dixon, of Mockerkin, Cumbld., yeoman, and Anne Sherman, of Winskills, p. Workington. Bondsman: William Fisher, of Winskils, yeoman. Witness: James Farish. Book: Lancaster Marriage Bonds (Marriage Bond) Collection: Lancashire: - Marriage Bonds, Deaneries of Lonsdale, Kendal, Furness and Copeland (Archdeaconry of Richmond) 1648-1710 William Fisher died 1693 Possible father of the above W/RW/C/R215A/54Probate records Preston Whitehave microfilm ref HK841 Frame 110 Date08 May 1693 Testator's name: WILLIAM FISHER Place: WINSKALES WORKINGTON March the 13th 1692 In the name of God amen. I William Fisher of Winskales in the parish of Workington being sick in body but perfect in remeberance praise be to God for it do make and ordain this my last will and testament in manor and form as follows the first I do commend my soul into the hands of Almighty God my maker hoping through the ????? death and passion of Jesus Christ my only saviour and redeemer to receive free pardon and remission for my sins and body to be buried in the church yard of Workington and as for my worldly goods as follows Imprimis I give and bequeath to my son William Fisher one whool cart and the husbandry gear his mother having the use of them as long as she lives and the table in the great house. ItemI give and bequeath to my wife one cow called green horn and the bay mare. Item I give to my daughter Ann Woods a little ??? coal and I give to her daughter Mary two shilling six pence. Item I give to me niece Ann Fisher five shillings. Item I give to my two daughters Mabel and Isabel either five pounds which is in my brother Henry Hogshon's hand and as for the rest of my goods movable and unmovable what so ever I make my two daughters Mabel and Isabel my whole executors dividing them equally between them. Likewise it is in my mind that my son William have the great ark in the bower giving twenty shillings to my two daughters Mabel and Isabel my wife having it as long as she lives, and I give him the dales upon his chamber loft only making me a coffin of them. In witnesse where of I have ??? unto God my hand and soul the day and year above written Signed William Fisher This is probably the William that had a daughter Isabel who was baptised in 1670 in Workington and married Joseph Miller of Clifton in 1700 in Workington. He also had a daughter Mary baptized in 1678 and who died in 1683 as well as the children mentioned in the will. It seems probable that his wife was a sister of Henry Hogshen and that this William had at least one brother who also had a daughter called Ann Fisher. It may well be this William Fisher who was the appraiser of George Dickinson's will in 1664 given Chris Dickinson's research. regards melanie

melanie chesnel wrote: > http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/5308959/person/-1440099447/facts > > the above is a link to UK, Apprentices Indentured in Merchant Navy, 1824-1910 on Ancestry and I am interested in the red writing above the entry for Younghusband Fisher who is apprenticed to his uncle William Fisher. I think it means he died before the indenture finished but I am not sure. Any help would be gratefully received > regards melanie chesnel > I read the first bit as 'Run 28 August 1856 at Shields' - he doesn't seem to have died until 1861 according to FreeBMD -- Anne Chambers South Australia anne dot chambers at bigpond dot com

On Wednesday, 11 November 2015 10:42:05 UTC, melanie chesnel wrote: |If the William Fisher to whom he was indentured is the master of the ship, what ever its name, then it is more likely to be his Uncle's son rather than the uncle. There were several generations of William fishers in Winscales, Workington and Liverpool, all ship owners, masters or merchants which I am trying to get a grip on. It is all so tantalizing| Hello Melanie I can't remember whether we've communicated on this before. I suspect a George Dickinson of my family married a Fisher of Winscales back in the seventeenth century: http://rumbutter.info/gen-cumb-cd-fam-dickinson-of-streetgate/appendix-winscales While trying to find more evidence, I got these BMDs from the Workington register (but haven't pursued the research any further): Anthony Fisher, son of Henry Fisher of W'ton, bapt. Mar 6 1663 Mathew Fisher, son of Henry Fisher bapt. Jan 5 1673 Thomas Fisher married Elizabeth Walker, 1689 Joseph Miller of Clifton & Isabel Fisher of Winskails married 13 June 1700 Mathew Fisher & Mary Bowman married 27 Aug 1703 Isabel Fisher, daughter of William Fisher of Winskails bapt. Dec 6 1670 Mary Fisher, daughter of William Fisher of Winskails, bapt. Apr 2 1676 William Fisher married Mary Winder, both of Winskails, 3 July 1694 Mary Fisher daughter of William Fisher of Winskails, buryed May 31 1683 William Fisher of Winskails, buryed March 16 1692 Anne Fisher daughter of William Fisher bapt. Nov 27 1697 Mary, wife of William Fisher of Winskails, buryed Oct 26 1700 Looking at LANCAT, I see that they have listed 69 probate entries for Winscales, some Fisher (which you probably have already). What you might not have is that 6 of these 69 have stated occupation as mariner: Christopher Thompson 1717, Thomas Thompson 1716, John Johnson 1768, Thomas Little 1816, John Mitchinson 1818, William Wilson 1822. Given the tight family networks in Cumberland, these might be worth looking at. Chris

On Wednesday, November 11, 2015 at 11:02:31 AM UTC+1, Anne Chambers wrote: > melanie chesnel wrote: > > > > > thanks for that . > > 'Run 28 August 1856 at Shields' fits more or less with what I could see, it was the next bit which I thought might be Decd and took to mean deceased. Looking at an entry above this now looks more like Recd which I presume means "recorded". What the third bit says maybe writ 12/9/56. Do you think this means he jumped ship in "Sheilds" in August and his Uncle issued a writ for the broken indentures contract in September? Would "Sheilds" be Tyne side or somewhere else? > > All very intriguing > > regards melanie > > > I took 'Shields' to be South Shields, Tyneside > > -- > Anne Chambers > South Australia > > anne dot chambers at bigpond dot com thanks once again - I have spent the morning googling but can't find anything which explains the annotations on the register. There is a ship Tam O'Shanter registered at the time in Liverpool but no Ian O'Shanter registered anywhere in Britain at the time according to Http://www.crewlist.org.uk/data/vesselsalpha.php. If the William Fisher to whom he was indentured is the master of the ship, what ever its name, then it is more likely to be his Uncle's son rather than the uncle. There were several generations of William fishers in Winscales, Workington and Liverpool, all ship owners, masters or merchants which I am trying to get a grip on. It is all so tantalizing regards melanie

On Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 9:41:04 PM UTC+1, Anne Chambers wrote: > melanie chesnel wrote: > > http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/5308959/person/-1440099447/facts > > > > the above is a link to UK, Apprentices Indentured in Merchant Navy, 1824-1910 on Ancestry and I am interested in the red writing above the entry for Younghusband Fisher who is apprenticed to his uncle William Fisher. I think it means he died before the indenture finished but I am not sure. Any help would be gratefully received > > regards melanie chesnel > > > I read the first bit as 'Run 28 August 1856 at Shields' - he doesn't seem to have died until 1861 according to > FreeBMD > > -- > Anne Chambers > South Australia > > anne dot chambers at bigpond dot com thanks for that . 'Run 28 August 1856 at Shields' fits more or less with what I could see, it was the next bit which I thought might be Decd and took to mean deceased. Looking at an entry above this now looks more like Recd which I presume means "recorded". What the third bit says maybe writ 12/9/56. Do you think this means he jumped ship in "Sheilds" in August and his Uncle issued a writ for the broken indentures contract in September? Would "Sheilds" be Tyne side or somewhere else? All very intriguing regards melanie

On 09/11/2015 18:32, Graeme Wall via wrote: >> >Excellent! So the annotation was indeed the DOB. > <cough> DOD. > Yes indeed. Date of Death :-) -- Brian Pears (Gateshead)

On 08/11/2015 15:41, Brian Pears via wrote: > There has been some speculation as to whether there could be some > annotation indicating death on the part of the right hand page of > the register which we cannot see. Sometimes enumerators make errors > and put things in the wrong columns, and I'm wondering if that's > what's happened in a case I've come across. > > Yes there was a "D" annotation on the right hand page, that was supplied to FMP to allow them to open records of deceased people on the register. There are however various annotations on the left hand page which we can see these include date of birth, date of change of name (possibly due to marriage) and I have one on my brother's record which may be the date of a change of doctor (as he had just gone up to uni.) but could also tie in with when they were notified of a change of name for him. My mother had re-married and he was using the new surname. Cheers Guy

http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/5308959/person/-1440099447/facts the above is a link to UK, Apprentices Indentured in Merchant Navy, 1824-1910 on Ancestry and I am interested in the red writing above the entry for Younghusband Fisher who is apprenticed to his uncle William Fisher. I think it means he died before the indenture finished but I am not sure. Any help would be gratefully received regards melanie chesnel