On 29/11/15 12:51, Gordon wrote: > "Ian Goddard" wrote in message news:dc06aiF31p0U1@mid.individual.net... >> >> Would such protection extend after ashes had been buried? There was >> an article in the local paper the other day that the ashes of someone >> connected with a local golf course had been buried there, presumably >> with agreement. There is now a proposal to build on the property. >> >> > > Interesting question. I suspect they will be "duty bound" to reinter the > ashes if they remove them. I don't think that they can just throw them > away. They may be able to build over them but it will be a matter for > the developers to resolve as you say it is known that the ashes are > there. Presumably there are still relatives alive. Yes, it was their complaints that raised it: http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news/familys-torment-dads-memorial-faces-10507371 -- Hotmail is my spam bin. Real address is ianng at austonley org uk

"Ian Goddard" wrote in message news:dc06aiF31p0U1@mid.individual.net... > >Would such protection extend after ashes had been buried? There was an >article in the local paper the other day that the ashes of someone >connected with a local golf course had been buried there, presumably with >agreement. There is now a proposal to build on the property. > > Interesting question. I suspect they will be "duty bound" to reinter the ashes if they remove them. I don't think that they can just throw them away. They may be able to build over them but it will be a matter for the developers to resolve as you say it is known that the ashes are there. Presumably there are still relatives alive. Gordon

On 29/11/15 10:42, Gordon wrote: > "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:dbv1jqFpavqU1@mid.individual.net... >> >> On 28/11/15 12:06, Gordon wrote: >> >>> To scatter ashes you must have the land owners permission otherwise >>> you could be prosecuted for illegal disposal of human remains, >> >> That's bollocks: you can't possibly be prosecuted for illegal disposal >> of human remains for the simple reason that ashes are not considered >> human remains. You could perhaps be prosecuted for littering or >> similar, or conceivably criminal damage (though the circumstances >> would have to be extraordinary to make that sticking). >> >> Richard > > That shows how little you know. Ashes are still human remains and > unauthorised scattering can be view as illegal disposal. Ask an > undertaker or read the paper placed in the urn by the crematorium. Would such protection extend after ashes had been buried? There was an article in the local paper the other day that the ashes of someone connected with a local golf course had been buried there, presumably with agreement. There is now a proposal to build on the property. -- Hotmail is my spam bin. Real address is ianng at austonley org uk

" Charles Ellson" wrote in message news:ahhk5bdte45s2reei3bho3759cdds2mejf@4ax.com... > >Not for my mother it didn't, ITYF the sealed coffin is a requirement >if flown on a passenger aircraft and then maybe only because of the >requirements in the receiving country and/or the airline. Even the >bodies of persons entering/leaving the UK who have died of particular >diseases have only the restriction that the coffin must not be opened >without the permission of the Port/Airport Medical Officer or the >local Medical Officer of Health :- >http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/inchpmanual/inchp06550.htm > The airline I worked for did carry bodies in the freight bay of passenger aircraft. The "sealing" would be to prevent leakage (however unlikely) of decay fluids which would prove corrosive to the aircraft structure plus the obvious unpleasant side. The seal could be an external plastic sheet which would be removed before the coffin is returned to relatives. The coffin would also be wrapped to protect it from damage. Gordon

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:dbv1jqFpavqU1@mid.individual.net... > >On 28/11/15 12:06, Gordon wrote: > >> To scatter ashes you must have the land owners permission otherwise >> you could be prosecuted for illegal disposal of human remains, > >That's bollocks: you can't possibly be prosecuted for illegal disposal >of human remains for the simple reason that ashes are not considered >human remains. You could perhaps be prosecuted for littering or similar, >or conceivably criminal damage (though the circumstances would have to be >extraordinary to make that sticking). > >Richard That shows how little you know. Ashes are still human remains and unauthorised scattering can be view as illegal disposal. Ask an undertaker or read the paper placed in the urn by the crematorium. Gordon

On Sun, 29 Nov 2015 01:10:16 +0000, Richard Smith <richard@ex-parrot.com> wrote: >On 28/11/15 12:06, Gordon wrote: > >> To scatter ashes you must have the land owners permission otherwise >> you could be prosecuted for illegal disposal of human remains, > >That's bollocks: you can't possibly be prosecuted for illegal disposal >of human remains for the simple reason that ashes are not considered >human remains. > They are for various purposes but they are not equated with an entire human corpse. They effectively become just ashes once they leave the charge of persons responsible for dealing with the dead. >You could perhaps be prosecuted for littering or >similar, or conceivably criminal damage (though the circumstances would >have to be extraordinary to make that sticking). > >Richard

On Sat, 28 Nov 2015 12:06:58 -0000, "Gordon" <gordonwb@argonet.co.uk> wrote: >"cecilia" wrote in message >news:qc2j5bda522guuli1fne3dqorj9t5bkv8s@4ax.com... >> >>On Fri, 27 Nov 2015 22:34:09 +0000, Charles Ellson <ce11son@yahoo.ca> >>wrote: >> >>> Cremated remains are not a "body" and there are for >>>most practical purposes no special restrictions on their disposal. >> >>Until one gets down to the final actions, e.g. >> >>cemeteries have found that roses don't do well with an excess of ash, >>so control locations of scattering; >> >>in CoE (at least) consecrated ground, ashes should not be scattered, >>but buried. The minister should be involved; >> >>a "favorite location" is usually owned by some body who may not take >>kindly to having ash scattered, or holes dug; >> >>if disposal is to be in a churchyard, cemetery etc, the crematorium >>issues a piece of paper to give to the person in charge of the site. >>This is usually dealt with by the undertaker, if still involved in >>what is happening. > >Having "disposed" of cremated remains I know what is involved in the UK. It >is illegal to scatter ashes any where you like. To scatter ashes you must >have the land owners permission otherwise you could be prosecuted for >illegal disposal of human remains, > Not so, ashes are not human bodies or organic material and not specifically "human remains" in most contexts involving possession by those other than undertakers, cemeteries or museums. What you could possibly get prosecuted for is illegal dumping but you would probably really need to annoy the prosecutors for that. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6529215.stm There also seems to be common confusion of restrictions on ashes which have been buried in consecrated ground and ashes buried elsewhere. In the former case it would seem in practice to be the disturbance of the burial ground which requires permission rather than the movement of the ashes. >I'm not sure about scattering at sea >which is a different case. Burial in a cemetery is no problem but there is a >charge which the cemetery will tell you. Inside the urn the crematorium >places a piece of paper telling you what you can or cannot do with the >ashes. We buried our friend's ashes in a family grave which we had to pay to >have "opened". > >Transporting a body from one place to another can be expensive as you have >to pay each local authority whose area you pass through so most people will >choose to bury where the person died. > ITYF that's an urban legend. "Hospital and hospice staff have, frequently asserted that county boundary fees have to be paid when crossing boundaries with bodies. There are no such fees. In recent times, some have insisted that undertakers have listed county boundary fees in their bills, but no evidence has ever been produced!" http://evansaboveonline.co.uk/after-death/transporting-the-body/ (which credits the Alice Barker Trust as a source - "Our main function is to help with dying and bereavement, particularly sound advice on Law."[http://www.yor-ok.org.uk/service-detail.htm?serviceid=2719]) What is restricted is the movement of a body out of England and Wales without a Coroner's permission even if the Coroner has otherwise taken no interest in the body. >There is no cost to carry ashes across the country. > >Flying a body requires a specially sealed coffin regardless of any embalming >procedures carried out. > Not for my mother it didn't, ITYF the sealed coffin is a requirement if flown on a passenger aircraft and then maybe only because of the requirements in the receiving country and/or the airline. Even the bodies of persons entering/leaving the UK who have died of particular diseases have only the restriction that the coffin must not be opened without the permission of the Port/Airport Medical Officer or the local Medical Officer of Health :- http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/inchpmanual/inchp06550.htm >People do scatter ashes without permission but they risk prosecution if >caught. > >Gordon

On 28/11/15 12:06, Gordon wrote: > To scatter ashes you must have the land owners permission otherwise > you could be prosecuted for illegal disposal of human remains, That's bollocks: you can't possibly be prosecuted for illegal disposal of human remains for the simple reason that ashes are not considered human remains. You could perhaps be prosecuted for littering or similar, or conceivably criminal damage (though the circumstances would have to be extraordinary to make that sticking). Richard

On 28/11/2015 11:13, cecilia wrote: > On Fri, 27 Nov 2015 22:34:09 +0000, Charles Ellson <ce11son@yahoo.ca> > wrote: > >> Cremated remains are not a "body" and there are for >> most practical purposes no special restrictions on their disposal. > > Until one gets down to the final actions, e.g. > > cemeteries have found that roses don't do well with an excess of ash, > so control locations of scattering; > > in CoE (at least) consecrated ground, ashes should not be scattered, > but buried. The minister should be involved; > > a "favorite location" is usually owned by some body who may not take > kindly to having ash scattered, or holes dug; > > if disposal is to be in a churchyard, cemetery etc, the crematorium > issues a piece of paper to give to the person in charge of the site. > This is usually dealt with by the undertaker, if still involved in > what is happening. > There have been similar problems in the Highlands with people spreading ashes in 'favourite locations' which often are a very fragile environment (they also tend to fix plaques which then have to be removed by someone).

"cecilia" wrote in message news:qc2j5bda522guuli1fne3dqorj9t5bkv8s@4ax.com... > >On Fri, 27 Nov 2015 22:34:09 +0000, Charles Ellson <ce11son@yahoo.ca> >wrote: > >> Cremated remains are not a "body" and there are for >>most practical purposes no special restrictions on their disposal. > >Until one gets down to the final actions, e.g. > >cemeteries have found that roses don't do well with an excess of ash, >so control locations of scattering; > >in CoE (at least) consecrated ground, ashes should not be scattered, >but buried. The minister should be involved; > >a "favorite location" is usually owned by some body who may not take >kindly to having ash scattered, or holes dug; > >if disposal is to be in a churchyard, cemetery etc, the crematorium >issues a piece of paper to give to the person in charge of the site. >This is usually dealt with by the undertaker, if still involved in >what is happening. Having "disposed" of cremated remains I know what is involved in the UK. It is illegal to scatter ashes any where you like. To scatter ashes you must have the land owners permission otherwise you could be prosecuted for illegal disposal of human remains, I'm not sure about scattering at sea which is a different case. Burial in a cemetery is no problem but there is a charge which the cemetery will tell you. Inside the urn the crematorium places a piece of paper telling you what you can or cannot do with the ashes. We buried our friend's ashes in a family grave which we had to pay to have "opened". Transporting a body from one place to another can be expensive as you have to pay each local authority whose area you pass through so most people will choose to bury where the person died. There is no cost to carry ashes across the country. Flying a body requires a specially sealed coffin regardless of any embalming procedures carried out. People do scatter ashes without permission but they risk prosecution if caught. Gordon

On Fri, 27 Nov 2015 22:34:09 +0000, Charles Ellson <ce11son@yahoo.ca> wrote: > Cremated remains are not a "body" and there are for >most practical purposes no special restrictions on their disposal. Until one gets down to the final actions, e.g. cemeteries have found that roses don't do well with an excess of ash, so control locations of scattering; in CoE (at least) consecrated ground, ashes should not be scattered, but buried. The minister should be involved; a "favorite location" is usually owned by some body who may not take kindly to having ash scattered, or holes dug; if disposal is to be in a churchyard, cemetery etc, the crematorium issues a piece of paper to give to the person in charge of the site. This is usually dealt with by the undertaker, if still involved in what is happening.

On 26/11/2015 22:36, Charles Ellson wrote: > Or could she have been working in or near Fort George ? The tendency > then was for the marriage to be in the bride's home parish whether or > not they were resident at the time. Fort George is well worth a visit if you get chance. It is virtually unchanged and has some rooms furnished as they would have been at different times in its history. The museum has an archive that I found very useful when initially researching my GGF. Fort George railway station opened in 1855 and Aberlour Station in 1863 so it would not have been difficult to get between the two places. In July 1866 the 'right wing' of the 62nd had been stationed at Gosport and sailed from Portsmouth for Queenstown. The 'left wing' were on detached duty in Weymouth and going to join them. They seem to have been in Butievant in late 1867.

On 27/11/2015 22:34, Charles Ellson wrote: > On Thu, 26 Nov 2015 14:09:33 +0000, nick ashby via > <genbrit@rootsweb.com> wrote: > >> Hi I am correct,that a person can be buried anywhere in the UK,in a >> cemetery different to the place of death. >> > They can be buried, cremated or exported anywhere but are you actually > thinking of the general right to be buried in the local parish > cemetery (if there is one) in England ? > referred to in :- > http://www.funeralinspirations.co.uk/information/Traditional-Burial.html > > A body cannot be removed from England and Wales without permission of > the Coroner but that is generally a matter of getting the right form, > informally called an "out of England" form/certificate (Form 104 > Removal Notice). Cremated remains are not a "body" and there are for > most practical purposes no special restrictions on their disposal. > Years ago we used to get a lot of parcels sent up to work from London by Red Star because it was far quicker and more reliable than any of the courier companies so we were often at the local station. I went one time to collect something and went around the back of the parcel office so I could take it straight through the back door. There was large coffin sized box covered in canvas in the parcel office, I asked about it and was told that they were known as 'single-enders' because they obviously were only going one way.

On Fri, 27 Nov 2015 23:48:52 +0000, Terry Wells <terrywells@csi.com> wrote: >On Fri, 27 Nov 2015 22:34:09 +0000, Charles Ellson wrote: > >> >> On Thu, 26 Nov 2015 14:09:33 +0000, nick ashby via >> <genbrit@rootsweb.com> wrote: >> >>>Hi I am correct,that a person can be buried anywhere in the UK,in a >>>cemetery different to the place of death. >>> >> They can be buried, cremated or exported anywhere but are you actually >> thinking of the general right to be buried in the local parish >> cemetery (if there is one) in England ? >> referred to in :- >> http://www.funeralinspirations.co.uk/information/Traditional-Burial.html >> >> A body cannot be removed from England and Wales without permission of >> the Coroner but that is generally a matter of getting the right form, >> informally called an "out of England" form/certificate (Form 104 >> Removal Notice). Cremated remains are not a "body" and there are for >> most practical purposes no special restrictions on their disposal. > >A friend and neighbour of mine recently died in London where he was working >and was cremated in Scotland where he lived. Presumably the correct form >was completed. > It was probably arranged by the undertaker, it doesn't have to be done by the family.

On Fri, 27 Nov 2015 22:34:09 +0000, Charles Ellson wrote: > Path: buffer1.nntp.ams1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!ecngs!testfeeder.ecngs.de!81.171.118.63.MISMATCH!peer03.fr7!news.highwinds-media.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail > From: Charles Ellson <ce11son@yahoo.ca> > Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.britain > Subject: Re: cemetery > Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 22:34:09 +0000 > Lines: 17 > Message-ID: <oplh5b5hcr1jk24bgdm3ri1tcrj92b263h@4ax.com> > References: <mailman.13.1448660544.23712.genbrit@rootsweb.com> > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Trace: individual.net DmKc+edrZPtjYP9mh0a5RQX/LNxI1928+DMGt9fUpSUDCh1o9n > Cancel-Lock: sha1:HrDbCzuGwIyHhxaxBG8vEKqiol0= > X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 6.00/32.1186 > X-Received-Bytes: 1468 > X-Received-Body-CRC: 737060994 > Bytes: 1604 > Xref: number.nntp.giganews.com soc.genealogy.britain:471548 > > On Thu, 26 Nov 2015 14:09:33 +0000, nick ashby via > <genbrit@rootsweb.com> wrote: > >>Hi I am correct,that a person can be buried anywhere in the UK,in a >>cemetery different to the place of death. >> > They can be buried, cremated or exported anywhere but are you actually > thinking of the general right to be buried in the local parish > cemetery (if there is one) in England ? > referred to in :- > http://www.funeralinspirations.co.uk/information/Traditional-Burial.html > > A body cannot be removed from England and Wales without permission of > the Coroner but that is generally a matter of getting the right form, > informally called an "out of England" form/certificate (Form 104 > Removal Notice). Cremated remains are not a "body" and there are for > most practical purposes no special restrictions on their disposal. A friend and neighbour of mine recently died in London where he was working and was cremated in Scotland where he lived. Presumably the correct form was completed. -- Terry Wells

On Thu, 26 Nov 2015 14:09:33 +0000, nick ashby via <genbrit@rootsweb.com> wrote: >Hi I am correct,that a person can be buried anywhere in the UK,in a >cemetery different to the place of death. > They can be buried, cremated or exported anywhere but are you actually thinking of the general right to be buried in the local parish cemetery (if there is one) in England ? referred to in :- http://www.funeralinspirations.co.uk/information/Traditional-Burial.html A body cannot be removed from England and Wales without permission of the Coroner but that is generally a matter of getting the right form, informally called an "out of England" form/certificate (Form 104 Removal Notice). Cremated remains are not a "body" and there are for most practical purposes no special restrictions on their disposal.

On Fri, 27 Nov 2015 01:59:57 +0000, Richard Smith <richard@ex-parrot.com> wrote: >On 27/11/15 01:16, cecilia wrote >> Is it likely that Churches keep details of Faculty Applications that >> are turned down? I'm thinking of applications made in the late >> 1970s / early 1980s for a stained glass window. > >The church may or may not. PCCs are not as good at keeping records as >you might hope. But the diocese will probably have records, depending >on exactly what happened. > >[details snipped] Thank you for that detailed explanation - gives me an action plan.

On 27/11/15 01:16, cecilia wrote: > Is it likely that Churches keep details of Faculty Applications that > are turned down? I'm thinking of applications made in the late > 1970s / early 1980s for a stained glass window. The church may or may not. PCCs are not as good at keeping records as you might hope. But the diocese will probably have records, depending on exactly what happened. There's a possibility that it was informally rejected before the faculty application was properly submitted. The usual first step in a faculty application is an informal chat with the Diocesan Registrar or a member of a Diocesan Advisory Committee (DAC), and sometimes it becomes clear that the application has no hope of success. In such a case, there may be no record. But otherwise the application would normally be considered by the DAC, and minutes of their meeting may well exist. If there were major objections and the PCC were willing to fight it, it may have gone to Consistory Court, in which case records will certainly exist. Even if not, it will have been considered by the Registrar, and records of that may exist. Finally the Chancellor of the Diocese grants or rejects the faculty, and a record should certainly exist. Records this recent may not have been deposited in the Diocesan Record Office yet, but that should be your first port of call. If they cannot help, or if they know the records are not there, contact the Diocesan Registry. There will normally be a Registry Secretary or a Clerk to the Registrar, and that would be appropriate person to contact. Faculty applications are a major part of their work, and they should know what records exist and where they can be found. Consistory Court proceedings are open to the public as a matter of course, but I don't believe there's any obligation to make DAC minutes or the Registrar's advice public, so there's a possibility that the records you seek do exist but are still closed. Richard

Is it likely that Churches keep details of Faculty Applications that are turned down? I'm thinking of applications made in the late 1970s / early 1980s for a stained glass window.

On Thu, 26 Nov 2015 11:37:29 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote: >On 25/11/2015 11:13, David Marshall wrote: >> In 1876 Richard Rhodes married Georgina McKerron in Aberlour Banffshire. >> Richard was a senior NCO of the 62nd Regiment of Foot, stationed in >> Maryborough, Queens County, Ireland (now Portlaoise, Co. Laois) which he >> gave as his home parish and where the couple lived immediately after the >> marriage. Aberlour was Georgina's birthplace and hometown (although in >> 1871 she was living with an aunt in Elgin). >> Leaving aside speculation as to how they might have met, my questions are - >> How long might it have taken to travel from Maryborough to Aberlour and >> back? >> Did regular soldiers have an entitlement to statutory or discretionary >> leave at this time? >> >> David > > >Could he have spent some time as a Drill Instructor in Aberlour or >wherever she was working? > Or could she have been working in or near Fort George ? The tendency then was for the marriage to be in the bride's home parish whether or not they were resident at the time.