On 2013-06-16, at 4:22 AM, roy.stockdill@btinternet.com wrote: > > Now, don't get me wrong, I am sure it will be an interesting series, I know > some of the Wall to Wall People (indeed, I was in one of their programmes > about the comedian John Bishop) and I recognise the exigencies of television > demand a bit of emotion! However, am I being unfair in thinking these showbiz > luvvies can turn on the tears and emotion to demand? Clearly, none of them can > be family historians since people such as ourselves would take it all in our > stride! Wouldn't we??? Some older genealogists can still remember the chill of fear in the voices of their parents and grandparents when workhouses were mentioned. My discovery that two of my 3X Gt Grandfathers were both on the Board of Guardians of the Ulverston (Lancs., now Cumbria) workhouse in the middle of the 19th century was a surprise for which I was unprepared. Meanwhile, forbears from some of my other lines were inmates in that same workhouse (as well as others) at the same time period. But that doesn't surprise me at all as many of my ancestors were desperately poor. I deduce the two who were Guardians followed the route to that position by virtue of being churchwardens in their nearby home parishes. They were yeoman farmers, not gentlemen. I hope they were decent fellows (in the context of their time) who did not let power go to their heads. I've found contemporary newspaper advertisements asking for suppliers to bid on providing various essential items to that workhouse. Shrouds figure prominently in the list, as I suppose they would for all workhouses. But it's still a reminder that the workhouse was often the end of the road. Genealogy's often all about the saints and the sinners, isn't it. And that makes it wonderful. But which was which! Lorraine

J. P. Gilliver (John) <G6JPG@soft255.demon.co.uk> wrote: > In message <kplld0$l8r$1@speranza.aioe.org>, Ann Watson > <Annailis@NOTSOhotmail.com> writes: > >On 16/06/2013 7:22 AM, roy.stockdill@btinternet.com wrote: > >> A new series starts on ITVI on Tuesday June 25, made by Wall To Wall > >> Television, the same people who make Who Do You Think You Are? > >> > >> This will focus on celebrities who are horrified/shocked/appalled > >>(choose your > >> own phrase) to discover they had an ancestor who ended up in the workhouse. > > > >I'd save "horrified/shocked/appalled" for discovering ancestors who > >ended up in the insane asylum! > > > >AW > > > > > Beware: it is my understanding that that was used as a weapon against > women under the flimsiest of justifications, and of course almost > impossible to "escape" from, until relatively recently - there's a > notorious act (something like "communicable diseases" I think) involved. > So finding at least a female ancestor (ancestress?) was declared insane > is not necessarily a reason for horror/shock/appalation (?). > > Ah, found it (Wikipedia's search engine didn't find it under "Act" - the > entry is "Acts". Bad! Took me about 25 minutes to get round that!): > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contagious_Diseases_Acts Mind you, there may have been justification - one rather distant cousin of mine died in Wadsley Asylum in Sheffield and the family today suspect syphillis - though of course it would be very difficult to find out for sure. -- Please reply to john at yclept dot wanadoo dot co dot uk.

Brian Austin <brian.austin@btinternet.com> wrote: > It's often forgotten that poor people went into the workhouse because they > needed medical attention not because they couldn't support themselves > financially. One of my great great grandmothers who had been living with one > of her daughters, did just that and died there. I remember discussing this > with a distant relation who was quite upset to think of it despite my > pointing out that this was quite normal. And indeed many of them did become hospitals when the workhouse system shut down. Before that, you are quite right - I've several instances of people going into Ecclesall Union (later Nether Edge Hospital) in Sheffield to have babies. It stands out a bit because the families concerned normally did their GRO registrations in Sheffield RD, but these were registered in Ecclesall Bierlow. John. -- Please reply to john at yclept dot wanadoo dot co dot uk.

In message <kplld0$l8r$1@speranza.aioe.org>, Ann Watson <Annailis@NOTSOhotmail.com> writes: >On 16/06/2013 7:22 AM, roy.stockdill@btinternet.com wrote: >> A new series starts on ITVI on Tuesday June 25, made by Wall To Wall >> Television, the same people who make Who Do You Think You Are? >> >> This will focus on celebrities who are horrified/shocked/appalled >>(choose your >> own phrase) to discover they had an ancestor who ended up in the workhouse. > >I'd save "horrified/shocked/appalled" for discovering ancestors who >ended up in the insane asylum! > >AW > > Beware: it is my understanding that that was used as a weapon against women under the flimsiest of justifications, and of course almost impossible to "escape" from, until relatively recently - there's a notorious act (something like "communicable diseases" I think) involved. So finding at least a female ancestor (ancestress?) was declared insane is not necessarily a reason for horror/shock/appalation (?). Ah, found it (Wikipedia's search engine didn't find it under "Act" - the entry is "Acts". Bad! Took me about 25 minutes to get round that!): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contagious_Diseases_Acts -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf ... unlike other legal systems the common law is permissive. We can do what we like, unless it is specifically prohibited by law. We are not as rule-bound and codified as other legal systems. - Helena Kennedy QC (Radio Times 14-20 July 2012).

Polygonum wrote, Sunday, June 16, 2013 7:52 PM > anything further back or less horrific seems > to be more or less simply how things are. An ancestor of mine, an Arden... He allowed his daughter to marry a rather s t r a n g e young fellow, who then took it into his head that he would go to London and kill the Queen - Elizabeth I, it was then. So off he went. He stopped at an inn near Watford, and bragged about his plans to the clientele, one of whom alerted the Authorities, who arrested our young fanatic. He was duly given the "third degree", and spilt that his unknowing father-in-law and he had concocted the plan. My innocent ancestor was thereupon arrested, tortured and executed, and his possessions confiscated. The fanatic was released. The blameless destitute and homeless widow eventually announced that she would go to London to beg the queen to grant her a small pension that she might survive - she had nothing left to lose. Off she went... and was never heard of again. Cruel times.

On 16 Jun at 12:22, roy.stockdill@btinternet.com wrote: <big snip for brevity> > ... I recognise the exigencies of television demand a bit of emotion! Too right, a good dose of emotion brings in the the adverts. > However, am I being unfair in thinking these showbiz luvvies can turn > on the tears and emotion to demand? Of course you are right. I even remember once, in my days at a factory Up North, one lady freely admitted she could turn the tears on at the drop of a hat. I suspect there is a bit of technique to doing this and wonder what it is. Curiously in a Murdoch rag a couple of days ago a letter to the editor related how Churchill would be streaming with tears whenever he watched a film. I had heard something of this of him several decades back, not quite the bulldog breed. But then politicians have to do a bit of acting occasionally. > Clearly, none of them can be family historians since people such as > ourselves would take it all in our stride! Wouldn't we??? Not totally in my case. And I do know of some people who simply won't do genealogy for fear of the reds under the bed that they may discover. But what sort of performance should I have put on today on hearing that an ancestress who was judicially murdered most foully had lived in the house I was visiting? I have now found a total of 42 ancestors who were executed or hung, a fair number of them not without good cause. So I wonder if this could be the follow-up, to find some luvvies who could put on a good show as they were taken round all the various places of execution of their ancestors. We could have other luvvies acting the part of the to-be-hung ancestor. And the executioner. Jobs for the boys galore. Then we could have a competition for the luvvie who put on the greatest show of shock, horror, grief and dismay? With telephone voting of course. -- Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org for a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

<roy.stockdill@btinternet.com> wrote in message news:mailman.0.1371381989.681.genbrit@rootsweb.com... >A new series starts on ITVI on Tuesday June 25, made by Wall To Wall > Television, the same people who make Who Do You Think You Are? > > This will focus on celebrities who are horrified/shocked/appalled (choose > your > own phrase) to discover they had an ancestor who ended up in the > workhouse. > > I read a whole-page blurb in yesterday's Weekend magazine (the Daily > Mail's TV > listings mag). The stars featured include Felicity Kendal, Fern Britton > and the > novelist Barbara Taylor Bradford. These are some of the stories..... > > Felicity Kendal, discovering her great-grandmother was branded a woman of > low > repute because she had two illegitimate children, though she also had nine > other legitimate ones. Kendal makes a "pilgrimage" to an unmarked grave of > one > of the children who died young. "It's heartbreaking" she says. > > Fern Britton is "visibly distraught" when she discovers her > great-great-great-grandfather went into a workhouse at 91. His son Jesse > died > in a workhouse and his body was given for medical research. Britton is > described as having tears pouring down her cheeks. > > Barbara Taylor Bradford (who started out as a journalist in Leeds, tough > as old > boots, one imagines) is similarly upset, "her features becoming more and > more > pinched", as she discovers her mother was put into a workhouse by her > grandmother. > > And Scottish actor Brian Cox apparently became furious and outraged when > learning that his great-grandfather ended up in a Scottish workhouse, "at > one > point Brian looks as if he might punch the archivist"..."B******s!" he > declares > as the full horror of his family history is laid bare. > > Now, don't get me wrong, I am sure it will be an interesting series, I > know > some of the Wall to Wall People (indeed, I was in one of their programmes > about the comedian John Bishop) and I recognise the exigencies of > television > demand a bit of emotion! However, am I being unfair in thinking these > showbiz > luvvies can turn on the tears and emotion to demand? Clearly, none of them > can > be family historians since people such as ourselves would take it all in > our > stride! Wouldn't we??? > > > -- > Roy Stockdill > Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer > Famous family trees blog: http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/tag/roy-stockdill/ > > "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, > and that is not being talked about." > OSCAR WILDE It's often forgotten that poor people went into the workhouse because they needed medical attention not because they couldn't support themselves financially. One of my great great grandmothers who had been living with one of her daughters, did just that and died there. I remember discussing this with a distant relation who was quite upset to think of it despite my pointing out that this was quite normal. Brian Austin

In message <mailman.0.1371381989.681.genbrit@rootsweb.com>, roy.stockdill@btinternet.com writes: [] >Now, don't get me wrong, I am sure it will be an interesting series, I know >some of the Wall to Wall People (indeed, I was in one of their programmes >about the comedian John Bishop) and I recognise the exigencies of television >demand a bit of emotion! However, am I being unfair in thinking these showbiz >luvvies can turn on the tears and emotion to demand? Clearly, none of them can I don't think so. And also I suspect some of it is editing for effect too. >be family historians since people such as ourselves would take it all in our >stride! Wouldn't we??? > I long for _anything_ interesting among my ancestors (-:! (Miners, fishermen, and lots of ag. lab.s.) > >-- >Roy Stockdill >Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer >Famous family trees blog: http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/tag/roy-stockdill/ > >"There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, >and that is not being talked about." >OSCAR WILDE > I don't agree with Oscar, though I see the humour in the quote (or did the first time). > > > -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind. - Mahatma Gandhi (according to the film Gandhi [1982])

Well, not the workhouse, but three weeks ago I was in hospital for an operation on my foot. Nurse insisting that it was to be a general anaesthetic, I said the consultant had said that it could be a local. Conversation between the anaesthetist and the consultant agreed to a local. Then one of the nurses who is to keep the patient happy asked what would I be doing if I wasn't there. I said as it's raining I would probably using the computer to solve some genealogy problem. So we had a discussion on genealogy. He said that he came from the highlands of Scotland, his mother did very well tracing the family tree. Civil records don't exist far back but in his area the church records are very comprehensive, and it became popular in the district. Then they found that a couple of hundred years back relationships were a bit different from today. Such as uncles marrying nieces and even closer than that. He said that the result was that some people became embarrassed and stopped searching. Another example, if you can't stand the heat.. Alec Lefevre

On Sun, 16 Jun 2013 16:52:51 +0100, nemo@erewhon.invalid (John Hill) wrote: ><roy.stockdill@btinternet.com> wrote: > >> Now, don't get me wrong, I am sure it will be an interesting series, I know >> some of the Wall to Wall People (indeed, I was in one of their programmes >> about the comedian John Bishop) and I recognise the exigencies of television >> demand a bit of emotion! However, am I being unfair in thinking these showbiz >> luvvies can turn on the tears and emotion to demand? Clearly, none of them can >> be family historians since people such as ourselves would take it all in our >> stride! Wouldn't we??? > >Agree, agree - my wife and I were much amused by the article. Compared >with some of the things in our family histories, a spell (or even final >years) in a workhouse is comparitively uninteresting. > >After all, you are of advanced years, you can no longer work, pensions >are unheard of for most people, and maybe your children are penurious; >what else to do? Starve on the street? Exactly. My great great grandfather spent his last years in Bodmin workhouse and died there at the age of 83. His wife and three of his four children had predeceased him, and the fourth child (my great grandfather) had emigrated. -- Steve Hayes Web: http://hayesgreene.wordpress.com/ http://hayesgreene.blogspot.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/afgen/

On 16/06/2013 7:22 AM, roy.stockdill@btinternet.com wrote: > A new series starts on ITVI on Tuesday June 25, made by Wall To Wall > Television, the same people who make Who Do You Think You Are? > > This will focus on celebrities who are horrified/shocked/appalled (choose your > own phrase) to discover they had an ancestor who ended up in the workhouse. I'd save "horrified/shocked/appalled" for discovering ancestors who ended up in the insane asylum! AW

At 12:22 16/06/2013, roy.stockdill@btinternet.com wrote: >A new series starts on ITVI on Tuesday June 25, made by Wall To Wall >Television, the same people who make Who Do You Think You Are? >This will focus on celebrities who are horrified/shocked/appalled >(choose your >own phrase) to discover they had an ancestor who ended up in the workhouse. Thanks for pointing this out Roy. I would have thought that for many of us it is almost a "badge of honour" to find someone in our tree in a workhouse. My wife was somewhat devastated to discover that one of her GGGrandfathers had died in the Thrapston workhouse at the age of 81. [in 1882 via 1881 census] When the next generation had all the appearances of being reasonably genteel. Then we worked out that there were probably two factors:- . He had remarried and drifted away from his first family . Towards the end of the century Workhouses were more like hospitals than prison camps Gordon +Z [+Z] <http://www.adshead.com/> Gordon Adshead <gordon@adshead.com> [+Z] Beaumont House, 2 Goodrington Road, Handforth, Cheshire, SK9 3AT, UK [+Z] Tel:Fax:Msg:+44-1625-549770 Mob:+44-777-6145602

On 16/06/2013 12:22, roy.stockdill@btinternet.com wrote: > However, am I being unfair in thinking these showbiz > luvvies can turn on the tears and emotion to demand? Clearly, none of them can > be family historians since people such as ourselves would take it all in our > stride! Wouldn't we??? Have to admit some degree of upset as we have uncovered more and more circumstantial evidence that partner's grandparents are most likely to have died in the holocaust. But anything further back or less horrific seems to be more or less simply how things are. -- Rod

On 6/16/2013 6:07 PM, A.Lefevre wrote: > Well, not the workhouse, but three weeks ago I was in hospital for an > operation on my foot. Nurse insisting that it was to be a general > anaesthetic, I said the consultant had said that it could be a local. > Conversation between the anaesthetist and the consultant agreed to a local. > Then one of the nurses who is to keep the patient happy asked what would I > be doing if I wasn't there. I said as it's raining I would probably using > the computer to solve some genealogy problem. So we had a discussion on > genealogy. He said that he came from the highlands of Scotland, his mother > did very well tracing the family tree. Civil records don't exist far back > but in his area the church records are very comprehensive, and it became > popular in the district. Then they found that a couple of hundred years back > relationships were a bit different from today. Such as uncles marrying > nieces and even closer than that. He said that the result was that some > people became embarrassed and stopped searching. > > Another example, if you can't stand the heat.. > > Alec Lefevre > I think the biggest mistake is to judge our ancestors by our standards, as if our standards were perfect. To understand our ancestor we must put ourselves in their place, in their time, in their circumstances with their values. Only then can we judge them. Looking at what they did in their terms, may give you a whole new perspective on the events. In one incident, I know there was some bad feelings between an ancestor and the coulple's parent. I knew the parents had lost their house and the father had been out of work. But I thought that that had been in the early 1930. Imagine my surprise when I learned that 10 years later at the time of the couple's wedding the father had been out of work for again for almost 2 years. The young woman was helping support her parents. So the marriage was adding additional insecurity to their already shaky situation. We have to accept what we find, and not do as many people do today blame their faults on their ancestors.

On 16/06/2013 12:22, roy.stockdill@btinternet.com wrote: > And Scottish actor Brian Cox apparently became furious and outraged when > learning that his great-grandfather ended up in a Scottish workhouse, "at one > point Brian looks as if he might punch the archivist"..."B******s!" he declares > as the full horror of his family history is laid bare. I am going to a short course at our local archive and the archivist told a similar story about when he found a visitor's ancestor had been the Poorhouse. It took some time to convince him that it was true.

<roy.stockdill@btinternet.com> wrote: > Now, don't get me wrong, I am sure it will be an interesting series, I know > some of the Wall to Wall People (indeed, I was in one of their programmes > about the comedian John Bishop) and I recognise the exigencies of television > demand a bit of emotion! However, am I being unfair in thinking these showbiz > luvvies can turn on the tears and emotion to demand? Clearly, none of them can > be family historians since people such as ourselves would take it all in our > stride! Wouldn't we??? Agree, agree - my wife and I were much amused by the article. Compared with some of the things in our family histories, a spell (or even final years) in a workhouse is comparitively uninteresting. After all, you are of advanced years, you can no longer work, pensions are unheard of for most people, and maybe your children are penurious; what else to do? Starve on the street? It may have been harsh, but it was at least sheltered housing… John. -- Please reply to john at yclept dot wanadoo dot co dot uk.

On 2013-06-16 12:22:45 +0100, roy.stockdill@btinternet.com said: > A new series starts on ITVI on Tuesday June 25, made by Wall To Wall > Television, the same people who make Who Do You Think You Are? > > This will focus on celebrities who are horrified/shocked/appalled (choose your > own phrase) to discover they had an ancestor who ended up in the workhouse. > > I read a whole-page blurb in yesterday's Weekend magazine (the Daily Mail's TV > listings mag). The stars featured include Felicity Kendal, Fern Britton and the > novelist Barbara Taylor Bradford. These are some of the stories..... > > Felicity Kendal, discovering her great-grandmother was branded a woman of low > repute because she had two illegitimate children, though she also had nine > other legitimate ones. Kendal makes a "pilgrimage" to an unmarked grave of one > of the children who died young. "It's heartbreaking" she says. > > Fern Britton is "visibly distraught" when she discovers her > great-great-great-grandfather went into a workhouse at 91. His son Jesse died > in a workhouse and his body was given for medical research. Britton is > described as having tears pouring down her cheeks. > > Barbara Taylor Bradford (who started out as a journalist in Leeds, tough as old > boots, one imagines) is similarly upset, "her features becoming more and more > pinched", as she discovers her mother was put into a workhouse by her > grandmother. > > And Scottish actor Brian Cox apparently became furious and outraged when > learning that his great-grandfather ended up in a Scottish workhouse, "at one > point Brian looks as if he might punch the archivist"..."B******s!" he declares > as the full horror of his family history is laid bare. > > Now, don't get me wrong, I am sure it will be an interesting series, I know > some of the Wall to Wall People (indeed, I was in one of their programmes > about the comedian John Bishop) and I recognise the exigencies of television > demand a bit of emotion! However, am I being unfair in thinking these showbiz > luvvies can turn on the tears and emotion to demand? Clearly, none of them can > be family historians since people such as ourselves would take it all in our > stride! Wouldn't we??? I do wonder, in 100 years time will my descendants look at the notes I have made about my childhood and turn on the tears (whether paid to do so for the entertainment of others, or not). We (like many of my generation) grew up in a draughty. non centrally heated house with poor insulation and we would often wake to see ice on the inside of the bedroom windows. We walked miles to go to school, in all weathers. Our family did not have a car, a car actually going up the street was unusual - any deliveries (milk/coal etc) were done by horse and cart. We didn't have a television or a telephone till I was in my teens. By todays standards our life was extreme hardship - but it wasn't really, it was our life and we didn't feel badly done to at all. These sort of programmes always seem to 'play to the gallery' rather than try to put the events they discover into the context of the times they happened. -- Tickettyboo

Roy Stockdill wrote:     <snip>   "B******s!" he declares as the full horror of his family history is laid bare.   <snip>     Now there's an image!       Chris

A new series starts on ITVI on Tuesday June 25, made by Wall To Wall Television, the same people who make Who Do You Think You Are? This will focus on celebrities who are horrified/shocked/appalled (choose your own phrase) to discover they had an ancestor who ended up in the workhouse. I read a whole-page blurb in yesterday's Weekend magazine (the Daily Mail's TV listings mag). The stars featured include Felicity Kendal, Fern Britton and the novelist Barbara Taylor Bradford. These are some of the stories..... Felicity Kendal, discovering her great-grandmother was branded a woman of low repute because she had two illegitimate children, though she also had nine other legitimate ones. Kendal makes a "pilgrimage" to an unmarked grave of one of the children who died young. "It's heartbreaking" she says. Fern Britton is "visibly distraught" when she discovers her great-great-great-grandfather went into a workhouse at 91. His son Jesse died in a workhouse and his body was given for medical research. Britton is described as having tears pouring down her cheeks. Barbara Taylor Bradford (who started out as a journalist in Leeds, tough as old boots, one imagines) is similarly upset, "her features becoming more and more pinched", as she discovers her mother was put into a workhouse by her grandmother. And Scottish actor Brian Cox apparently became furious and outraged when learning that his great-grandfather ended up in a Scottish workhouse, "at one point Brian looks as if he might punch the archivist"..."B******s!" he declares as the full horror of his family history is laid bare. Now, don't get me wrong, I am sure it will be an interesting series, I know some of the Wall to Wall People (indeed, I was in one of their programmes about the comedian John Bishop) and I recognise the exigencies of television demand a bit of emotion! However, am I being unfair in thinking these showbiz luvvies can turn on the tears and emotion to demand? Clearly, none of them can be family historians since people such as ourselves would take it all in our stride! Wouldn't we??? -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Famous family trees blog: http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/tag/roy-stockdill/ "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

On 15/06/2013 11:03, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: > In message <kph8id$524$1@dont-email.me>, David Mills > <dcm19401@gmailREMOVE.com> writes: >> On 15/06/2013 07:48, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: >>> In message <kpcurr$evq$1@dont-email.me>, David Mills >>> <dcm19401@gmailREMOVE.com> writes: >>>> On 13/06/2013 16:17, Tickettyboo wrote: >>>>> On 2013-06-12 21:52:01 +0100, David Mills said: >>> [] >>>>>> His name was Thomas Aldridge, born 1853 in Braughing,Herts., living >>>>>> according to the 1911 census in East Ham with his son Jesse. >>> [] >>>> I had bought the Fulham death certificate some while back but the >>>> informant was his son A Aldridge so I ruled that one out. >>> >>> Are you sure he didn't have a son A.? I know there's no such living with >>> him in the 1901 (see another post in this thread), but he could have >>> left or not been born by then. >>> [] >>>> Thanks tick boo >> In the 1911 census thomas states 2 children born alive and 2 living. > > Ah, so none _before_ Emma and Jesse. I suppose could be more later, > though as mother would be 46ish by the time of the '11 (and they were > both born well before the '01), you're probably right that "A." is son > of another. Very big grin. Maria died in 1910.