On Sat, 06 Jul 2013 17:49:53 +0100, eve@varneys.org.uk wrote: > It just concerns me that so few actors and show biz people seem ever to > have learnt any history. How very true. > Common sense would show that people generally didn't go into the > workhouse unless their home conditions were really desperate, Also true. > generaqlly they were better fed, better housed, better cared for medically, > and probably less exposed to physical and moral dangers than they would > have been, or actually had been, outside. Sorry Eve, this is complete nonsense. Did you ever meet, speak to or know any of those peeople who actually 'enjoyed the hospitality' of a workhouse? I did, and their dread of ever having to return there has stayed in my memory for many years. The utter fear of those institutions terrjfied those who had not been interred in what were effectively prisons for the poor, but who had relative who had suffered. Do you think it was fun for mothers to be forcibly separated from their children, maybe never to see them again? Likewise brothers and sisters, long time husbands and wives, all forced into institutional uniforms, effectively prison clothes. All this was just a bit of light rekief I suppose. >True, they lacked television, mod > cons, designer clothes, and the liberty to misbehave, start a boy band and > (save the mark) be a Selebritty - but most would have lacked these > opportunites outside the workhouse too. What a ridiculous strawman argument! Quite inappropriate coming from someone I've long regarded as a professional. To use the vernacular, a load of old cobblers! [more nonsense snipped] . > EVE > > > Author of The McLaughlin Guides for Family Historians > Secretary, Bucks Genealogical Society Oh dear! :-(

Tickettyboo wrote: > On 2013-06-30 22:21:45 +0000, mllt1@le.ac.uk said: > >> On Sunday, June 30, 2013 10:04:14 PM UTC+1, ecunningham wrote: >> >>> Matt: Hate to jump into the middle of this but need a clarification. >>> Do> you KNOW he was drafted. The card you are referring to is a >>> REGISTRATION> CARD. It does not mean he was drafted. If he was, get his >>> military> records (if they didn't burn in St. Louis). However, you >>> needed this> card to work during the ww1 years and could be stopped on >>> the street by> patriotic bullies and made to show the card. Many men >>> never registered> but did serve. >>> ecunningh***.net >> >> A good question - all we know is that Tickettyboo's original post said >> 'a month later he was enlisted'. It's one of the circumstances one >> would like to know more about - was he conscripted unwillingly, or did >> he accept the draft more or less willingly, or did he simply volunteer >> (the last seems unlikely - his statements in the draft card do not >> point to much desire for service.) If Tickettyboo knows anything more >> it would be interesting to hear it. >> >> Matt Tompkins > > > Sorry I didn't back back to this sooner, the here and now has been > demanding my attention so the long dead have taken a back seat. > > Charles Victor HENRY is a twiglet on my tree, he was the son of one of > my Granda's cousins. Until I started researching my family history I > had no idea of their existence so have no personal knowledge of them. > His grandparents and assorted children (including Charles' father) > emigrated from Shetland to Canada c1873. > Charles' parents married in New Brunswick in 1891, they had 2 children > (that I know of) Hazel born 1892 and Charles born 1896. Charles' father > died in 1899 and his widow re-married in 1904. > > One of Charles' uncles had left Canada and settled in Maine with his > family. According to the 1920 US census, Charles was living with them > and the form says he had been in the US since 1912. The same 1920 > census has him, still classified as an alien, by 1930 the entry in the > citizenship column of the census say Pa (which I believe means he had > submitted the papers for citizenship, but I could be wrong). > > I don't have an actual service record for Charles (if anyone can point > me to where I may find one, I'll go look), I do have a record from the > Maine-WW1-Soldiers index which says he entered service 25 July 1918 and > was honourably discharged 24 Jul 1919. > When he died in 1956, his widow (who, just to complicate matters, was > also his cousin) applied for a headstone to be paid for by the Govt and > that form confirms his service dates and gives his service number as > 3160782 and says he served in the Army - 83 Co. Transportation Corps. > He was buried in Village Cemetery, Gray, Maine. > So, yes, I am sure he served in the US Army, but I have no idea if he > did that voluntarily or was conscripted. Is there anyway to tell? > Worth what you're paying for it, not a centime more: Yes, PA on most census does mean "Papers submitted." Generally, this implies the Declaration of Intent, a.k.a., First Papers. I know military experts and military research experts and research experts who specialise in the military. All these various people have told me at various times, beginning in 1964 through 2000 which is the last time I asked, that barring extremely unique circumstances, a foreign citizen who had not filed a Declaration of Intent could not be drafted. The example I've been given for Extremely Unique Circumstances pretty much boils down, the enemy is within sight and all local male US Citizen are already IN the service or dead but more soldiers are needed; local non-US-citizens COULD be drafted for the duration of the battle. Far's I know, no one has invaded Maine since 1800, so I can't see how an invocation of Extremely Unique Circumstances could have been involved. At some point beginning prior to the US War Between the States (1861-65) and AFAIK continuing today, a non-US-Citizen could shorten the required time between Declaration of Intent and Petition by serving in the US Military. I've actually known someone who did that. UNfortunately, I know of no easy way to know for certain whether he was in fact undeclared. If there is a database on-line or off of persons filing First Papers, I've not heard of it. There are tedious labor-intensive and time-consuming things one /could/ do with no certainty of accuracy. Happy to outline them, or visit any of the immigration/naturalization tutorial sites on-line (rootsweb.com, cyndislist.com et al) Cheryl

On 2013-07-08 10:38:31 +0000, Tickettyboo said: > On 2013-07-08 10:11:16 +0000, Graeme Wall said: > >> On 08/07/2013 10:09, Geoff Pearson wrote: >>> > >> >> I believe he was a Lt-Colonel in the RFA so his wife may have been >> styled Lady as a courtesy title. >> >> Have you tried contacting RAF Cosford? > > Yes, I tried the museum first and they suggested the base, so I have > emailed to ask if they can point me in the right direction. and I have had a reply - they don't know anything about her. Wow, someone gives you a quarter of a million quid in the 1930s and you don't even make a note of her name? You got to love it! Okay, so now I will try to find out which Govt Department would have been in charge of the money and building the block. Someone , somewhee must have details about this bequest. -- Tickettyboo

From: eve@varneys.org.uk > > I've watched quite a few of the WDYTYA programs and I've been suspicious > > of a few. For the most part I've felt they were genuine. Many have said > > they found the experience more moving than they expected and I can > > believe that. > > > > I > > > As for getting angry, I'm afraid I can't see that unless those > > responsible are still alive. > > > It just concerns me that so few actors and show biz people seem ever to > have learnt any history. > Common sense would show that people generally didn't go into the > workhouse unless their home conditions were really desperate, and > generaqlly they were better fed, better housed, better cared for medically, > and probably less exposed to physical and moral dangers than they would > have been, or actually had been, outside. True, they lacked television, mod > cons, designer clothes, and the liberty to misbehave, start a boy band and > (save the mark) be a Selebritty - but most would have lacked these > opportunites outside the workhouse too. > No one NOW would want to be sent to the workhouse, but thibnga were > different then - and adults at least had to apply for admission when they had > exhausted all other possibilities. For these luvvies to emote all over the > screen as if their own ancestors had been singled out for harsh treatment, > rather than being rescued from worse lives, is not really acceptable. > EVE > > > Author of The McLaughlin Guides for Family Historians > Secretary, Bucks Genealogical Society> Sound and sensible comments, Eve, with which I entirely agree. Unfortunately, these luvvies do not seem to understand that we can only ever analyse historical events and facts within a context of the social mores and attitudes of the times in which they occurred. It is utterly pointless getting angry over something that happened over 100 years ago when the world was so totally different. Applying a mindset of 21st century values to history is just so much nonsense. Having myself been involved in TV documentaries, I know that producers want to evoke a response from the subjects. However, wouldn't it be nice if they also presented an opinion from someone such as your good self, expressing the points that are made here by those of us who actually know what we are talking about? -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Famous family trees blog: http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/tag/roy-stockdill/ "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

On 2013-07-08 10:57:01 +0000, Geoff Pearson said: > "Geoff Pearson" <gspearson1647@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:b3vdubFg2m9U1@mid.individual.net... >> >> "Tickettyboo" <tickettyboo@mail2oops.com> wrote in message >> news:b3u6i6F8d6uU1@mid.individual.net... >>> I am way out of my usual area here <I have a long line of Ag Labs and >>> Anchor Smiths and haven't ever needed to venture up the 'posh end'> >>> >>> Trying to help a friend who is researching the history of a previous >>> owner of a military sword, one John Duncan Bertie Fulton (1876-1915) >>> In amongst the masses of paperwork he has collected about this man's >>> career etc is confirmation from The Central Chancery if the Orders of >>> Knighthood saying that, in 1914, he was amongst those "To be Ordinary >>> Members of the Military Division of the Third Class, or Companions, of >>> the Most Honourable Order of the Bath". >>> >>> >> >> In the 1911 census he is shown as "single" aged 34. Might there be two >> John Fultons? > > Hope this is all of interest. I'm still puzzled as to when and why he > got the CB - today a very elevated award. > > ROYAL FLYING CORPS. > Military Wing, Major John D. B. Fulton, > C.B., Royal Artillery, Chief Inspector, > Aeronautical Inspection Department, is appointed > to the Reserve. Dated 17th December, > 1913 I have just skimmed though the 4 page obit published in The Aeroplane, Nov 1915 which seems to say he was one of the first aviators (flying licence no 27). and this part seems to say 'why' he was given the C.B. <quote> In May 1912 he was appointed to the newly formed Central Flying School as an Instructor and was put in charge of the workshops, where he did for the mechanical side of the R.F.C. much what Major Trenchard […] did for the personnel. <snip> In December 1913 he became Chief Inspector of Material R.F.C. and for his services was given a C.B. <snip> In 1914, the Aeronautical Inspection Department was formed and placed entirely under his control. </quote> -- Tickettyboo

"Geoff Pearson" <gspearson1647@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:b3vdubFg2m9U1@mid.individual.net... > > "Tickettyboo" <tickettyboo@mail2oops.com> wrote in message > news:b3u6i6F8d6uU1@mid.individual.net... >> I am way out of my usual area here <I have a long line of Ag Labs and >> Anchor Smiths and haven't ever needed to venture up the 'posh end'> >> >> Trying to help a friend who is researching the history of a previous >> owner of a military sword, one John Duncan Bertie Fulton (1876-1915) >> In amongst the masses of paperwork he has collected about this man's >> career etc is confirmation from The Central Chancery if the Orders of >> Knighthood saying that, in 1914, he was amongst those "To be Ordinary >> Members of the Military Division of the Third Class, or Companions, of >> the Most Honourable Order of the Bath". >> >> Okay, so that is confirmed, but would this entitle his wife/widow to >> style herself as 'Lady Fulton'? >> >> I can't find a record of this man marrying but various articles on the >> net indicate that the Fulton Block, in RAF Cosford was built c 1938 and >> named in his memory. The funding of £250,000 was said to come from his >> widow, Lady Fulton. I haven't yet found a marriage for him and there was >> no mention of a widow on the CWGC site, nor in a four page obit about him >> in 'The Aeroplane' vol IX, no 20, dated 17th November 1915, so its just >> not adding up at the moment. >> >> Supplementary question - His probate record says Administration (with >> Will limited) to an attorney. Am I correct in thinking that the 'limited' >> relates to the Administration (perhaps not all of the estate was clear to >> go into probate and they allowed 'some' of his effects to be adminstered) >> , and not a comment about the actual will? I am hoping that a will may >> shed some light on whether or not he married. >> >> -- >> Tickettyboo >> > > In the 1911 census he is shown as "single" aged 34. Might there be two > John Fultons? ROYAL REGIMENT OF ARTILLERY. ' The undermentioned Supernumerary Lieutenants (District Officers) are .restored to the establishment. Dated 15th May, 1911: - Captain John. D. B. Fulton is seconded for service with the Air Battalion, Royal Engineers. Dated 25th April, 1911.

"Geoff Pearson" <gspearson1647@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:b3vdubFg2m9U1@mid.individual.net... > > "Tickettyboo" <tickettyboo@mail2oops.com> wrote in message > news:b3u6i6F8d6uU1@mid.individual.net... >> I am way out of my usual area here <I have a long line of Ag Labs and >> Anchor Smiths and haven't ever needed to venture up the 'posh end'> >> >> Trying to help a friend who is researching the history of a previous >> owner of a military sword, one John Duncan Bertie Fulton (1876-1915) >> In amongst the masses of paperwork he has collected about this man's >> career etc is confirmation from The Central Chancery if the Orders of >> Knighthood saying that, in 1914, he was amongst those "To be Ordinary >> Members of the Military Division of the Third Class, or Companions, of >> the Most Honourable Order of the Bath". >> >> Okay, so that is confirmed, but would this entitle his wife/widow to >> style herself as 'Lady Fulton'? >> >> I can't find a record of this man marrying but various articles on the >> net indicate that the Fulton Block, in RAF Cosford was built c 1938 and >> named in his memory. The funding of £250,000 was said to come from his >> widow, Lady Fulton. I haven't yet found a marriage for him and there was >> no mention of a widow on the CWGC site, nor in a four page obit about him >> in 'The Aeroplane' vol IX, no 20, dated 17th November 1915, so its just >> not adding up at the moment. >> >> Supplementary question - His probate record says Administration (with >> Will limited) to an attorney. Am I correct in thinking that the 'limited' >> relates to the Administration (perhaps not all of the estate was clear to >> go into probate and they allowed 'some' of his effects to be adminstered) >> , and not a comment about the actual will? I am hoping that a will may >> shed some light on whether or not he married. >> >> -- >> Tickettyboo >> > > In the 1911 census he is shown as "single" aged 34. Might there be two > John Fultons? Hope this is all of interest. I'm still puzzled as to when and why he got the CB - today a very elevated award. ROYAL FLYING CORPS. Military Wing, Major John D. B. Fulton, C.B., Royal Artillery, Chief Inspector, Aeronautical Inspection Department, is appointed to the Reserve. Dated 17th December, 1913

"Geoff Pearson" <gspearson1647@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:b3vdubFg2m9U1@mid.individual.net... > > "Tickettyboo" <tickettyboo@mail2oops.com> wrote in message > news:b3u6i6F8d6uU1@mid.individual.net... >> I am way out of my usual area here <I have a long line of Ag Labs and >> Anchor Smiths and haven't ever needed to venture up the 'posh end'> >> >> Trying to help a friend who is researching the history of a previous >> owner of a military sword, one John Duncan Bertie Fulton (1876-1915) >> In amongst the masses of paperwork he has collected about this man's >> career etc is confirmation from The Central Chancery if the Orders of >> Knighthood saying that, in 1914, he was amongst those "To be Ordinary >> Members of the Military Division of the Third Class, or Companions, of >> the Most Honourable Order of the Bath". >> >> Okay, so that is confirmed, but would this entitle his wife/widow to >> style herself as 'Lady Fulton'? >> >> I can't find a record of this man marrying but various articles on the >> net indicate that the Fulton Block, in RAF Cosford was built c 1938 and >> named in his memory. The funding of £250,000 was said to come from his >> widow, Lady Fulton. I haven't yet found a marriage for him and there was >> no mention of a widow on the CWGC site, nor in a four page obit about him >> in 'The Aeroplane' vol IX, no 20, dated 17th November 1915, so its just >> not adding up at the moment. >> >> Supplementary question - His probate record says Administration (with >> Will limited) to an attorney. Am I correct in thinking that the 'limited' >> relates to the Administration (perhaps not all of the estate was clear to >> go into probate and they allowed 'some' of his effects to be adminstered) >> , and not a comment about the actual will? I am hoping that a will may >> shed some light on whether or not he married. >> >> -- >> Tickettyboo >> > > In the 1911 census he is shown as "single" aged 34. Might there be two > John Fultons? More: War Office, September 10, 1901. ADESPATCH from Earl Roberts, K.G., G.C.B., &c., to the Right Honourable the Secretary of Slate for War, War Office, London, W.:- London, SIR, September4, 1901. IN continuation of my Despatch, dated London, 2nd April, 1901, in which I reported on the various departments of the Army ia South Africa, and brought to notice the names of certain Staff and other Officers together with a number of Colonial Officers and men who have distinguished themselves, I now have the honour to farther bring to your notice the names of the following regimental Officers, Non-commissioned Officers, and men of the Regulars, Militia, Yeomanry, and Volunteers, together with a few Irregulars and Civilians, who, with their various units, have rendered special and meritorious service. The names are arranged regimentally, by precedence of corps, for the purpose of more ready reference: - Staff. [masses snipped} 5932 THE LONDON GAZETl'E, SEPTEMBER 10, 1901. Lieutenant B. Henvey. Lieutenant F. M. Otter-Barry. . Lieutenant G. S. Tocey. Lieutenant J. D. B. Fulton. Lieutenant W. S. Brancker Lieutenant H. E. S. Wynne.. .

"Tickettyboo" <tickettyboo@mail2oops.com> wrote in message news:b3vj57Fh5ukU1@mid.individual.net... > On 2013-07-08 10:11:16 +0000, Graeme Wall said: > >> On 08/07/2013 10:09, Geoff Pearson wrote: >>> >>> "Tickettyboo" <tickettyboo@mail2oops.com> wrote in message >>> news:b3u6i6F8d6uU1@mid.individual.net... >>>> I am way out of my usual area here <I have a long line of Ag Labs and >>>> Anchor Smiths and haven't ever needed to venture up the 'posh end'> >>>> >>>> Trying to help a friend who is researching the history of a previous >>>> owner of a military sword, one John Duncan Bertie Fulton (1876-1915) >>>> In amongst the masses of paperwork he has collected about this man's >>>> career etc is confirmation from The Central Chancery if the Orders of >>>> Knighthood saying that, in 1914, he was amongst those "To be Ordinary >>>> Members of the Military Division of the Third Class, or Companions, of >>>> the Most Honourable Order of the Bath". >>>> >>>> Okay, so that is confirmed, but would this entitle his wife/widow to >>>> style herself as 'Lady Fulton'? >>>> >>> >>> In the 1911 census he is shown as "single" aged 34. Might there be two >>> John Fultons? >> >> There's a John D Fulton married in 1910 to either Alice C Harris or May >> Mortimer in Fulham. > > I spotted that one and checked it out in the London Parish database, this > John D had a middle name of Davey so its not the manI am looking for >> >> I believe he was a Lt-Colonel in the RFA so his wife may have been styled >> Lady as a courtesy title. >> >> Have you tried contacting RAF Cosford? > > Yes, I tried the museum first and they suggested the base, so I have > emailed to ask if they can point me in the right direction. > > -- > Tickettyboo > And another Royal Flying Corps. The undermentioned appointments are made: - Aeronautical Inspection- Department. Major John D. B. Fulton, C.B., Royal Artillery, Chief Inspector, to be graded as a Wing Commander, and to be temporary Lieutenant-Colonel. Dated 1st December, 1914.

"Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:5fwCt.34044$2z3.8730@fx28.fr7... > On 08/07/2013 10:09, Geoff Pearson wrote: >> >> "Tickettyboo" <tickettyboo@mail2oops.com> wrote in message >> news:b3u6i6F8d6uU1@mid.individual.net... >>> I am way out of my usual area here <I have a long line of Ag Labs and >>> Anchor Smiths and haven't ever needed to venture up the 'posh end'> >>> >>> Trying to help a friend who is researching the history of a previous >>> owner of a military sword, one John Duncan Bertie Fulton (1876-1915) >>> In amongst the masses of paperwork he has collected about this man's >>> career etc is confirmation from The Central Chancery if the Orders of >>> Knighthood saying that, in 1914, he was amongst those "To be Ordinary >>> Members of the Military Division of the Third Class, or Companions, of >>> the Most Honourable Order of the Bath". >>> >>> Okay, so that is confirmed, but would this entitle his wife/widow to >>> style herself as 'Lady Fulton'? >>> >>> I can't find a record of this man marrying but various articles on the >>> net indicate that the Fulton Block, in RAF Cosford was built c 1938 >>> and named in his memory. The funding of £250,000 was said to come from >>> his widow, Lady Fulton. I haven't yet found a marriage for him and >>> there was no mention of a widow on the CWGC site, nor in a four page >>> obit about him in 'The Aeroplane' vol IX, no 20, dated 17th November >>> 1915, so its just not adding up at the moment. >>> >>> Supplementary question - His probate record says Administration (with >>> Will limited) to an attorney. Am I correct in thinking that the >>> 'limited' relates to the Administration (perhaps not all of the estate >>> was clear to go into probate and they allowed 'some' of his effects to >>> be adminstered) , and not a comment about the actual will? I am hoping >>> that a will may shed some light on whether or not he married. >>> >>> -- >>> Tickettyboo >>> >> >> In the 1911 census he is shown as "single" aged 34. Might there be two >> John Fultons? > > There's a John D Fulton married in 1910 to either Alice C Harris or May > Mortimer in Fulham. > > I believe he was a Lt-Colonel in the RFA so his wife may have been styled > Lady as a courtesy title. > > Have you tried contacting RAF Cosford? > > -- > Graeme Wall > This account not read, substitute trains for rail. > Railway Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail> And this: Chief Inspectors- Brevet Major William D. Beatty, Royal Engineeers, from a Deputy Assistant Quartermaster- General, and to be temporary Lieutenant-Colonel whilst so employed, vice Major (temporary Lieutenant - Colonel) J. D. B. Fulton, C.B. (since deceased). Dated 31st October, 1915. Captain Ralph K. Bagnall-Wild,

"Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:5fwCt.34044$2z3.8730@fx28.fr7... > On 08/07/2013 10:09, Geoff Pearson wrote: >> >> "Tickettyboo" <tickettyboo@mail2oops.com> wrote in message >> news:b3u6i6F8d6uU1@mid.individual.net... >>> I am way out of my usual area here <I have a long line of Ag Labs and >>> Anchor Smiths and haven't ever needed to venture up the 'posh end'> >>> >>> Trying to help a friend who is researching the history of a previous >>> owner of a military sword, one John Duncan Bertie Fulton (1876-1915) >>> In amongst the masses of paperwork he has collected about this man's >>> career etc is confirmation from The Central Chancery if the Orders of >>> Knighthood saying that, in 1914, he was amongst those "To be Ordinary >>> Members of the Military Division of the Third Class, or Companions, of >>> the Most Honourable Order of the Bath". >>> >>> Okay, so that is confirmed, but would this entitle his wife/widow to >>> style herself as 'Lady Fulton'? >>> >>> I can't find a record of this man marrying but various articles on the >>> net indicate that the Fulton Block, in RAF Cosford was built c 1938 >>> and named in his memory. The funding of £250,000 was said to come from >>> his widow, Lady Fulton. I haven't yet found a marriage for him and >>> there was no mention of a widow on the CWGC site, nor in a four page >>> obit about him in 'The Aeroplane' vol IX, no 20, dated 17th November >>> 1915, so its just not adding up at the moment. >>> >>> Supplementary question - His probate record says Administration (with >>> Will limited) to an attorney. Am I correct in thinking that the >>> 'limited' relates to the Administration (perhaps not all of the estate >>> was clear to go into probate and they allowed 'some' of his effects to >>> be adminstered) , and not a comment about the actual will? I am hoping >>> that a will may shed some light on whether or not he married. >>> >>> -- >>> Tickettyboo >>> >> >> In the 1911 census he is shown as "single" aged 34. Might there be two >> John Fultons? > > There's a John D Fulton married in 1910 to either Alice C Harris or May > Mortimer in Fulham. > > I believe he was a Lt-Colonel in the RFA so his wife may have been styled > Lady as a courtesy title. > > Have you tried contacting RAF Cosford? > > -- > Graeme Wall > This account not read, substitute trains for rail. > Railway Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail> >From the London Gazette 1915 Assistant Directors- Major (temporary Lieutenant-Colonel) John D. B. Fulton/C.B., Royal Artillery (since deceased), from Chief Inspector, Aeronautical Inspection Department, and to retain his temporary rank whilst so employed, vice temporary Colonel D. S. Maclnnes, D.S.O. Dated 31st October, 1915

On 2013-07-08 10:11:16 +0000, Graeme Wall said: > On 08/07/2013 10:09, Geoff Pearson wrote: >> >> "Tickettyboo" <tickettyboo@mail2oops.com> wrote in message >> news:b3u6i6F8d6uU1@mid.individual.net... >>> I am way out of my usual area here <I have a long line of Ag Labs and >>> Anchor Smiths and haven't ever needed to venture up the 'posh end'> >>> >>> Trying to help a friend who is researching the history of a previous >>> owner of a military sword, one John Duncan Bertie Fulton (1876-1915) >>> In amongst the masses of paperwork he has collected about this man's >>> career etc is confirmation from The Central Chancery if the Orders of >>> Knighthood saying that, in 1914, he was amongst those "To be Ordinary >>> Members of the Military Division of the Third Class, or Companions, of >>> the Most Honourable Order of the Bath". >>> >>> Okay, so that is confirmed, but would this entitle his wife/widow to >>> style herself as 'Lady Fulton'? >>> >> >> In the 1911 census he is shown as "single" aged 34. Might there be two >> John Fultons? > > There's a John D Fulton married in 1910 to either Alice C Harris or May > Mortimer in Fulham. I spotted that one and checked it out in the London Parish database, this John D had a middle name of Davey so its not the manI am looking for > > I believe he was a Lt-Colonel in the RFA so his wife may have been > styled Lady as a courtesy title. > > Have you tried contacting RAF Cosford? Yes, I tried the museum first and they suggested the base, so I have emailed to ask if they can point me in the right direction. -- Tickettyboo

"Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:5fwCt.34044$2z3.8730@fx28.fr7... > On 08/07/2013 10:09, Geoff Pearson wrote: >> >> "Tickettyboo" <tickettyboo@mail2oops.com> wrote in message >> news:b3u6i6F8d6uU1@mid.individual.net... >>> I am way out of my usual area here <I have a long line of Ag Labs and >>> Anchor Smiths and haven't ever needed to venture up the 'posh end'> >>> >>> Trying to help a friend who is researching the history of a previous >>> owner of a military sword, one John Duncan Bertie Fulton (1876-1915) >>> In amongst the masses of paperwork he has collected about this man's >>> career etc is confirmation from The Central Chancery if the Orders of >>> Knighthood saying that, in 1914, he was amongst those "To be Ordinary >>> Members of the Military Division of the Third Class, or Companions, of >>> the Most Honourable Order of the Bath". >>> >>> Okay, so that is confirmed, but would this entitle his wife/widow to >>> style herself as 'Lady Fulton'? >>> >>> I can't find a record of this man marrying but various articles on the >>> net indicate that the Fulton Block, in RAF Cosford was built c 1938 >>> and named in his memory. The funding of £250,000 was said to come from >>> his widow, Lady Fulton. I haven't yet found a marriage for him and >>> there was no mention of a widow on the CWGC site, nor in a four page >>> obit about him in 'The Aeroplane' vol IX, no 20, dated 17th November >>> 1915, so its just not adding up at the moment. >>> >>> Supplementary question - His probate record says Administration (with >>> Will limited) to an attorney. Am I correct in thinking that the >>> 'limited' relates to the Administration (perhaps not all of the estate >>> was clear to go into probate and they allowed 'some' of his effects to >>> be adminstered) , and not a comment about the actual will? I am hoping >>> that a will may shed some light on whether or not he married. >>> >>> -- >>> Tickettyboo >>> >> >> In the 1911 census he is shown as "single" aged 34. Might there be two >> John Fultons? > > There's a John D Fulton married in 1910 to either Alice C Harris or May > Mortimer in Fulham. > > I believe he was a Lt-Colonel in the RFA so his wife may have been styled > Lady as a courtesy title. > > Have you tried contacting RAF Cosford? > > -- > Graeme Wall > This account not read, substitute trains for rail. > Railway Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail> I think if the wife of a Lt Colonel called herself Lady without entitlement the senior officers would have something to say. It is a relatively junior rank amongst senior officers (one below my own) and miles below where a knighthood would be awarded today. He seems to have moved very fast between being single in 1911 and married but dead in 1915 , with a CB picked up on the way at the age of 39. Perhaps he was a spy or did something special that cannot be spoken of?

On 7/8/2013 8:18 AM, roy.stockdill@btinternet.com wrote: > From: eve@varneys.org.uk > >>> I've watched quite a few of the WDYTYA programs and I've been suspicious >>> of a few. For the most part I've felt they were genuine. Many have said >>> they found the experience more moving than they expected and I can >>> believe that. >>> >>> I > >>> As for getting angry, I'm afraid I can't see that unless those >>> responsible are still alive. >> >> >> It just concerns me that so few actors and show biz people seem ever to >> have learnt any history. >> Common sense would show that people generally didn't go into the >> workhouse unless their home conditions were really desperate, and >> generaqlly they were better fed, better housed, better cared for medically, >> and probably less exposed to physical and moral dangers than they would >> have been, or actually had been, outside. True, they lacked television, mod >> cons, designer clothes, and the liberty to misbehave, start a boy band and >> (save the mark) be a Selebritty - but most would have lacked these >> opportunites outside the workhouse too. >> No one NOW would want to be sent to the workhouse, but thibnga were >> different then - and adults at least had to apply for admission when they had >> exhausted all other possibilities. For these luvvies to emote all over the >> screen as if their own ancestors had been singled out for harsh treatment, >> rather than being rescued from worse lives, is not really acceptable. >> EVE >> >> >> Author of The McLaughlin Guides for Family Historians >> Secretary, Bucks Genealogical Society> > > Sound and sensible comments, Eve, with which I entirely agree. Unfortunately, > these luvvies do not seem to understand that we can only ever analyse > historical events and facts within a context of the social mores and attitudes > of the times in which they occurred. > > It is utterly pointless getting angry over something that happened over 100 > years ago when the world was so totally different. Applying a mindset of 21st > century values to history is just so much nonsense. > > Having myself been involved in TV documentaries, I know that producers want to > evoke a response from the subjects. However, wouldn't it be nice if they also > presented an opinion from someone such as your good self, expressing the points > that are made here by those of us who actually know what we are talking about? > > -- > Roy Stockdill > Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer > Famous family trees blog: http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/tag/roy-stockdill/ > > "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, > and that is not being talked about." > OSCAR WILDE > > > > Fully agree +++++++++++

On 2013-07-08 07:33:51 +0000, wtwjgc (Joe) said: > Tickettyboo <tickettyboo@mail2oops.com> wrote: >> On 2013-07-07 22:44:33 +0000, Charles Ellson said: >> >>>> I am way out of my usual area here <I have a long line of Ag Labs and >>>> Anchor Smiths and haven't ever needed to venture up the 'posh end'> >>>>>> Trying to help a friend who is researching the history of a previous >>>> owner of a military sword, one John Duncan Bertie Fulton (1876-1915) >>>> In amongst the masses of paperwork he has collected about this man's >>>> career etc is confirmation from The Central Chancery if the Orders of >>>> Knighthood saying that, in 1914, he was amongst those "To be Ordinary >>>> Members of the Military Division of the Third Class, or Companions, of >>>> the Most Honourable Order of the Bath". >>>>>> Okay, so that is confirmed, but would this entitle his wife/widow to >>>> style herself as 'Lady Fulton'? >>>>> IMU there isn't actually any prohibition on a woman styling herself as >>> "Lady XYZ" as long as there is no fraudulent intent or actual/implied >>> false claim to anything titular other than the simple use of "Lady" >>> before a normal variation of her name. If I've read various sources >>> correctly then a mere Companion (distinct from a Knight Companion) is >>> not a Knight so while she might have been free to be a "Lady" her >>> husband wasn't a "Sir". >> >> Thanks. She seems to be billed as Lady Fulton in the various things I >> have read about the building of the Fulton Block, but there again, she >> was forking out £250,000 in the 1930s so I suppose the recipients would >> have called her anything she liked :-) > > A bit more background info you most probably have already found:- > > Captain John Duncan Bertie Fulton RFA Date: 15 November 1910. Used a Farman > Biplane at Salisbury Plain. He was awarded the third R.Ae.C. Special > certificate on 6 December 1911. > Later a Lieutenant Colonel and Chief Inspector of the Aeronautical > Inspection Department of the Royal Flying Corps when he died 11 November > 1915. > This from > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pilots_awarded_an_Aviator's_Certificate_by_the_Royal_Aero_Club_in_1910> > > > According to 'Flight' magazine he left £6,191 when he died. > <http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CDQQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flightglobal.com%2Fpdfarchive%2Fview%2F1916%2F1916%2520-%25200181.html&ei=umjaUd-AMYLa0QW63YDAAQ&usg=AFQjCNGKQYUUUE7_3AspY6oh-djj-y4K7Q&sig2=Iwn9c-C2gEBWE8cVujG1cA&bvm=bv.48705608,d.d2k> > Cheers Joe, but I was 'very' impressed with what my friend has about this man's career, he has records of most of his military career and various patents etc which he took out, plus copies of the magazine you mentioned amongst others. One or two books in which JDB F gets a mention too. Its just the family type bits I am looking at, which are proving to be difficult. The fact that he was born in San Francisco was interesting, but unproductive so far in the way of records to verify that event. He did attend school in England , at Malvern, but I am still trawling through to see if I can spot him/ his parents in passenger lists to and from the US. We do have a copy of his death cert, but apart from the address no clues to family there. His CWGC entry says he was the son of Frederick George Fulton - no mention of a Mum or a wife. -- Tickettyboo

On 08/07/2013 10:09, Geoff Pearson wrote: > > "Tickettyboo" <tickettyboo@mail2oops.com> wrote in message > news:b3u6i6F8d6uU1@mid.individual.net... >> I am way out of my usual area here <I have a long line of Ag Labs and >> Anchor Smiths and haven't ever needed to venture up the 'posh end'> >> >> Trying to help a friend who is researching the history of a previous >> owner of a military sword, one John Duncan Bertie Fulton (1876-1915) >> In amongst the masses of paperwork he has collected about this man's >> career etc is confirmation from The Central Chancery if the Orders of >> Knighthood saying that, in 1914, he was amongst those "To be Ordinary >> Members of the Military Division of the Third Class, or Companions, of >> the Most Honourable Order of the Bath". >> >> Okay, so that is confirmed, but would this entitle his wife/widow to >> style herself as 'Lady Fulton'? >> >> I can't find a record of this man marrying but various articles on the >> net indicate that the Fulton Block, in RAF Cosford was built c 1938 >> and named in his memory. The funding of £250,000 was said to come from >> his widow, Lady Fulton. I haven't yet found a marriage for him and >> there was no mention of a widow on the CWGC site, nor in a four page >> obit about him in 'The Aeroplane' vol IX, no 20, dated 17th November >> 1915, so its just not adding up at the moment. >> >> Supplementary question - His probate record says Administration (with >> Will limited) to an attorney. Am I correct in thinking that the >> 'limited' relates to the Administration (perhaps not all of the estate >> was clear to go into probate and they allowed 'some' of his effects to >> be adminstered) , and not a comment about the actual will? I am hoping >> that a will may shed some light on whether or not he married. >> >> -- >> Tickettyboo >> > > In the 1911 census he is shown as "single" aged 34. Might there be two > John Fultons? There's a John D Fulton married in 1910 to either Alice C Harris or May Mortimer in Fulham. I believe he was a Lt-Colonel in the RFA so his wife may have been styled Lady as a courtesy title. Have you tried contacting RAF Cosford? -- Graeme Wall This account not read, substitute trains for rail. Railway Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail>

"Tickettyboo" <tickettyboo@mail2oops.com> wrote in message news:b3u6i6F8d6uU1@mid.individual.net... > I am way out of my usual area here <I have a long line of Ag Labs and > Anchor Smiths and haven't ever needed to venture up the 'posh end'> > > Trying to help a friend who is researching the history of a previous owner > of a military sword, one John Duncan Bertie Fulton (1876-1915) > In amongst the masses of paperwork he has collected about this man's > career etc is confirmation from The Central Chancery if the Orders of > Knighthood saying that, in 1914, he was amongst those "To be Ordinary > Members of the Military Division of the Third Class, or Companions, of the > Most Honourable Order of the Bath". > > Okay, so that is confirmed, but would this entitle his wife/widow to style > herself as 'Lady Fulton'? > > I can't find a record of this man marrying but various articles on the net > indicate that the Fulton Block, in RAF Cosford was built c 1938 and named > in his memory. The funding of £250,000 was said to come from his widow, > Lady Fulton. I haven't yet found a marriage for him and there was no > mention of a widow on the CWGC site, nor in a four page obit about him in > 'The Aeroplane' vol IX, no 20, dated 17th November 1915, so its just not > adding up at the moment. > > Supplementary question - His probate record says Administration (with Will > limited) to an attorney. Am I correct in thinking that the 'limited' > relates to the Administration (perhaps not all of the estate was clear to > go into probate and they allowed 'some' of his effects to be adminstered) > , and not a comment about the actual will? I am hoping that a will may > shed some light on whether or not he married. > > -- > Tickettyboo > In the 1911 census he is shown as "single" aged 34. Might there be two John Fultons?

"Tickettyboo" <tickettyboo@mail2oops.com> wrote in message news:b3u6i6F8d6uU1@mid.individual.net... > I am way out of my usual area here <I have a long line of Ag Labs and > Anchor Smiths and haven't ever needed to venture up the 'posh end'> > > Trying to help a friend who is researching the history of a previous owner > of a military sword, one John Duncan Bertie Fulton (1876-1915) > In amongst the masses of paperwork he has collected about this man's > career etc is confirmation from The Central Chancery if the Orders of > Knighthood saying that, in 1914, he was amongst those "To be Ordinary > Members of the Military Division of the Third Class, or Companions, of the > Most Honourable Order of the Bath". > > Okay, so that is confirmed, but would this entitle his wife/widow to style > herself as 'Lady Fulton'? > > I can't find a record of this man marrying but various articles on the net > indicate that the Fulton Block, in RAF Cosford was built c 1938 and named > in his memory. The funding of £250,000 was said to come from his widow, > Lady Fulton. I haven't yet found a marriage for him and there was no > mention of a widow on the CWGC site, nor in a four page obit about him in > 'The Aeroplane' vol IX, no 20, dated 17th November 1915, so its just not > adding up at the moment. > > Supplementary question - His probate record says Administration (with Will > limited) to an attorney. Am I correct in thinking that the 'limited' > relates to the Administration (perhaps not all of the estate was clear to > go into probate and they allowed 'some' of his effects to be adminstered) > , and not a comment about the actual will? I am hoping that a will may > shed some light on whether or not he married. > > -- > Tickettyboo > He seems to have been born in San Francisco - and claims to be British on the Royal Aero Club records. But if he were not actually British he could not have called himself Sir anyway. For example, Magnus Magnusson was KBE but because he was Icelandic could not use the title "Sir"

In article <MPG.2c448b9d7bdf30f5989693@news.btinternet.com>, calverb- null@yahoo.co.uk says... > > > AIUI the Limited is a limit on the Administration granted. In one case > I looked at it was because the deceased had property outside the U.K so > the Court could not grant any Administration in respect of it. To be > sure what the limit was in your case you would need to get a copy of the > Admon. > > Admin with Will could be that the original executor had died. One of the > side effects of making a Will and then going on to lead a long life, > outliving all your friends. SUPPLEMENTARY: See also http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/ihtmanual/ihtm38249.htm for some more on "limited" Administrations. Perhaps in your case there was a later Admin or Probate if the Limited Admin just referred to a small part of the deceased's property. Have you checked forward a few years for another Probate ? - I've had one 13 years after death. -- BobC ========== Change "null" to "news" in reply address.

In article <b3u6i6F8d6uU1@mid.individual.net>, tickettyboo@mail2oops.com says... > > I am way out of my usual area here <I have a long line of Ag Labs and > Anchor Smiths and haven't ever needed to venture up the 'posh end'> > <snip> > Supplementary question - His probate record says Administration (with > Will limited) to an attorney. Am I correct in thinking that the > 'limited' relates to the Administration (perhaps not all of the estate > was clear to go into probate and they allowed 'some' of his effects to > be adminstered) , and not a comment about the actual will? I am hoping > that a will may shed some light on whether or not he married. AIUI the Limited is a limit on the Administration granted. In one case I looked at it was because the deceased had property outside the U.K so the Court could not grant any Administration in respect of it. To be sure what the limit was in your case you would need to get a copy of the Admon. Admin with Will could be that the original executor had died. One of the side effects of making a Will and then going on to lead a long life, outliving all your friends. -- BobC ========== Change "null" to "news" in reply address.