Keith Nuttle wrote in reply to my:   >> >> We can only make guesses about this. A general increase in adult life expectancy could be down, say, to better air quality. >> >> >> What is certainly the case is that an adult will survive significantly longer in non-polluted areas than in polluted ones - a significant factor again probably being air quality. >> > Nothing has to change in the life of an adult for the AVERAGE life > expectancy to increase.  All you have to do is decrease the infant > deaths and the death on women in child birth. > exp.  average of  10, 12,  50, 60, and 70 is 40.4 years > exp. average 50, 60, and 70  is 60 years. > This change has nothing to do with environment, pollution or any other > factor; than preventing the deaths of the young children. > As you I would expect the average life expectancy of people living in a > large city like New York or Los Angeles to be less that some one living > in Harlan Indiana or Chatfield Ohio.  In both areas the biological life > spans will be the same, the averages will be skewed down because of the > death of the younger people.  Of course Harlan and Chatfield do not have > the murder and crime rates of the large cities.   Yes, you're quite right. I realised the nonsense of my post when I looked back on it. The reason it became nonsense was the pruning shear!     My post started as an argument that the biological life span has likely increased (so the frequency of 111-year olds [say] today may be equivalent to the frequency of 101-year olds two hundred years ago). But then I cut all that out.   I was wondering how long it would take for someone to notice.     Chris 

On 31/07/2013 12:23, Chris Dickinson wrote: > The discussion about generations reminds me of a family, Mirehouse of Miresyke in Loweswater in Cumberland, who had a cluster of long living males. > > > John Mirehouse of Miresyke, senior, was buried in 1771 at the age of 92 (according to the parish register) > His eldest son, John, was buried in 1807, aged 101 (ditto - consistent with the parish register baptism) > His eldest son, John, was buried in 1818, aged 76 (tombstone - consistent with the parish register baptism); and second son Joseph was buried in 1828, aged 88 (ditto) > > > Furthermore, the first John's brother-in-law died in 1780, aged 99, and supposedly had a daughter from a third wife in 1765 [she remained a spinster, so I imagine the community thought her fathered by someone else] > > Anyone else with a family like this? I have a few like this in a family of brewers - who perhaps lived longer because they *didn't* drink the water! It has to be partly genetic since it seems to be that extreme longevity runs in families. They are fantastic markers when you are starting out since you find great granny 90+ living with a daughter in 1900 and then in earlier censuses looking after grandkids etc. She was already married with kids in the first 1840 census - not all of her children survived for so long. My glassmakers branches tend to have a serious mortality around aged 40 from industrial accidents or consumption, but a few retired as publicans serving the glassworks after they no longer had the lungs for blowing glass. ISTR they had a daily beer allowance of 12 pints for hot working at the furnace hearth (OK it was watery beer). Basically if you survive childhood diseases and don't get TB then apart from industrial accidents or mining disasters you are OK for a while. It is the high rate of infant mortality and TB killing young adults that accounts for the poor historic life expectancy (and also WWI). -- Regards, Martin Brown

On 31 Jul at 10:49, Ian Goddard <goddai01@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: > Geoff Pearson wrote: > > > However, interesting question: does anyone have a proven ancestor > > only 5 generations back living before 1700? Given that we normally > > allow 30 years per generation it will be very good going but could > > be done. > > OP wrote 5x *great grandfather*. Add on father & grandfather so we're > dealing with 7 previous generations, not 5. Does anyone have a > 5xggfather living before 1700? <snip> for brevity> Well that makes some sense for what I had dismissed as a ridiculous question and I find that I have birth dates of before 1700 for 10 of the 84 5G G-Fs that I have found. Though at least half of the 84 I have not got any birth dates at all. Of these 10, 5 are Quaker; it is noticeable that my Quaker ancestors generally married late in life giving greater generation gaps. -- Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org for a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

On 8/1/2013 8:38 AM, Chris Dickinson wrote: > Martin Brown wrote: > > >> I have a few like this in a family of brewers - who perhaps lived longer >> because they *didn't* drink the water! It has to be partly genetic since >> it seems to be that extreme longevity runs in families. > > > Though you could also argue that a family of brewers was likely to live in a place that had access to clean water. > > > <snip> >> ISTR they had a daily beer allowance of 12 pints for hot working >> at the furnace hearth (OK it was watery beer). > > > We should really, as genealogists and historians, be more aware that a large proportion of our ancestors were probably pissed or stoned most of the time. > > > Chris > We should also be aware that our ancestors may have lived lives that we were brought up to believe were quite scandalous. We should also remember that that scandalous behavior may be the reasons there are some people in our family trees that we can find nothing about. There was a time when a relative was living a scandalous life, were not talked about in family gatherings, in fact may have been purged from the family.

I'm a descendant of Cromwell. He is my 9x great grandfather through his son Henry, his son Henry, his son Thomas, his daughter Anne, her son William, his son Alfred, his daughter rosa, her son Edwin Cromwell, his daughter (my grandmother) Valery and my dad Matthew. Our family tree also goes upwards to Morgan Williams who married Thomas cromwell's sister..

David Morgan wrote:     > According to this compilation of U.S. statistics >  http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005140.html > life expectancy has increased for all ages, not just at birth. > For example, 100 years ago, a 50-year-old white male could expect, on average, to live to age 70. Whereas now a 50-year-old white male can expect to live to age 79. > I would be surprised (but interested) if this is different in the UK. We can only make guesses about this. A general increase in adult life expectancy could be down, say, to better air quality. What is certainly the case is that an adult will survive significantly longer in non-polluted areas than in polluted ones - a significant factor again probably being air quality. Chris     

On Wed, 31 Jul 2013 11:12:56 -0700 (PDT), Daniel Morgan <daniel.f.morgan@gmail.com> wrote: >On Wednesday, July 31, 2013 12:48:53 PM UTC-4, Renia wrote: >> On 31/07/2013 13:30, knuttle wrote: >> >> >> >> > One of the interesting facts I have observed from my families is that >> >> > while the average age of death has changed over the decades, the change >> >> > is caused by the reduction in infant and child birth deaths. >> >> > >> >> > This is obvious by the fact the age of death curve is tri modal. One >> >> > mode is centered at about 10, one mode is in the late twenties, and the >> >> > last in the early eighties >> >> > >> >> > From the data it appears that the biological life span has not changed, >> >> > what has changed is the life spans affected by disease and such. >> >> > >> >> > I have 100 year olds born in the 1700's and in the 1900's This "end >> >> > point" appears not to have changed with modern medicine and health care >> >> > practices. >> >> >> >> >> >> Absolutely. Life expectancy has not changed at all because all the >> >> statistics are skewed by the numbers of child and infant deaths. >> >> Humankind has long had the capacity to live until 80, 90 or even 100. >> >> But, if anything, people are not dying older, on average, but younger. >> >> My studies show more and more deaths of people in their 50s and 60s. The >> >> more they move to the cities, the younger they die. > >According to this compilation of U.S. statistics > http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005140.html >life expectancy has increased for all ages, not just at birth. > >For example, 100 years ago, a 50-year-old white male could expect, on average, to live to age 70. Whereas now a 50-year-old white male can expect to live to age 79. > >I would be surprised (but interested) if this is different in the UK. > Scotland, see :- http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/statistics/theme/life-expectancy/scottish-areas/2008-2010/index.html 82.21y for a 50y old male (only 75.33y in Glasgow) England and Wales, see :- http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/subnational-health4/life-expectancy-at-birth-and-at-age-65-by-local-areas-in-england-and-wales/2009-11/stb.html (East Dorset seems to be recommended)

On Wed, 31 Jul 2013 16:25:30 +0100, CWatters <colin.watters@NOturnersoakSPAM.plus.com> wrote: >On 30/07/2013 20:25, Roberto Gerry wrote: >> Hi, I´m from Argentina and I´m looking for my ancestors. They arrived to Argentina in 1860 aprox. I know theirs names: Thomas Gerry and Margarita Smith. >> The problem is: I don't know when and where they lived in UK. If somebody knows, please, help me! Thanks a lot and I´m so sorry for my spelling or/and grammar mistakes! >> Roberto M. Gerry >> > >The familysearch site has this birth record but perhaps a bit late.. > >Name: William Mc Gerry > Gender: Male > Christening Date: > Christening Place: > Birth Date: 06 Jan 1866 > Birthplace: EDINBURGH PARISH,EDINBURGH,MIDLOTHIAN,SCOTLAND > Death Date: > Name Note: > Race: > Father's Name: Thomas Mc Gerry > Father's Birthplace: > Father's Age: > Mother's Name: Margaret Smith > Mother's Birthplace: > Mother's Age: > Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C11685-2 > System Origin: Scotland-ODM > GS Film number: 6035516 > Reference ID: > Seemingly no sign of them in 1871 but what loks like a possible "spare" in 1861 is a 15y Thomas McGERRY in Cleator, Cumberland, England. The 1866 birth record should give the parents' date and place of marriage but beware of traditional "adjustments" like putting the date back a year if it wasn't long before the birth. FS seems to be throwing a sicky so I can't look for a Scottish marriage between 1855-1866 which can usually be expected to have been recorded if it occurred.

On 7/31/2013 4:08 PM, Chris Dickinson wrote: > David Morgan wrote: > > >> According to this compilation of U.S. statistics >> http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005140.html >> life expectancy has increased for all ages, not just at birth. > >> For example, 100 years ago, a 50-year-old white male could expect, on average, to live to age 70. Whereas now a 50-year-old white male can expect to live to age 79. > >> I would be surprised (but interested) if this is different in the UK. > > > > We can only make guesses about this. A general increase in adult life expectancy could be down, say, to better air quality. > > > What is certainly the case is that an adult will survive significantly longer in non-polluted areas than in polluted ones - a significant factor again probably being air quality. > > > Chris > Nothing has to change in the life of an adult for the AVERAGE life expectancy to increase. All you have to do is decrease the infant deaths and the death on women in child birth. exp. average of 10, 12, 50, 60, and 70 is 40.4 years exp. average 50, 60, and 70 is 60 years. This change has nothing to do with environment, pollution or any other factor; than preventing the deaths of the young children. As you I would expect the average life expectancy of people living in a large city like New York or Los Angeles to be less that some one living in Harlan Indiana or Chatfield Ohio. In both areas the biological life spans will be the same, the averages will be skewed down because of the death of the younger people. Of course Harlan and Chatfield do not have the murder and crime rates of the large cities.

The Mirehouse family were prosperous yeomen, living on an isolated farm in an area full of fresh water. They would have been well fed and free from water contamination. If they were fairly static in their habits, not visiting the local market town etc, then they may well have avoided a lot of the disease of nearby towns.     Chris

On 30/07/2013 21:25, Roberto Gerry wrote: > Hi, I´m from Argentina and I´m looking for my ancestors. They arrived > to Argentina in 1860 aprox. I know theirs names: Thomas Gerry and > Margarita Smith. The problem is: I don't know when and where they > lived in UK. If somebody knows, please, help me! Thanks a lot and I´m > so sorry for my spelling or/and grammar mistakes! Roberto M. Gerry > on http://genforum.genealogy.com/gerry/messages/266.html on February 24, 2010 you wrote: Hola, necesito saber si alguien conoce la historia de los Gerry que vinieron de Inglaterra (England) a la Argentina. He buscado mi genealogía y llego hasta el año 1860 (aprox)que es cuando aparecen Thomas Gerry y Margarita Smith. Thomas' parents were James Gerry & Elizabeth Herring(?) and Margarita's parents were James Smith and Bridgit Keeghan or Kighan. Thank you!. James Gerry and Elizabeth Herring married Jul-Sep 1854 Launceston 5c 45 so it is possible you have the wrong parents. In the 1851 census there is an Elizabeth Gerry born 1801 (widow) with a son Thomas Gerry born 1824, a tin miner in St Agnes Cornwall. In the 1841 census the family is shown with John Gerry born 1801. So if you made a mistake and the parents were John Gerry and Elizabeth then that might be the correct family. In the 1860s the Cornish tin mining industry went into decline and many miners emigrated, including to Argentina. In the 1851 census there are many Margaret (Margarita) Smith with father James and a few with mother Bridget, but none with both parents James and Bridget. Keeghan is a name of Irish origin. There are several Bridget Smith with daughter Margaret where Bridget was born in Ireland. Do you have birth dates for Thomas and/or Margaret or any other information?

On 31/07/2013 13:30, knuttle wrote: > One of the interesting facts I have observed from my families is that > while the average age of death has changed over the decades, the change > is caused by the reduction in infant and child birth deaths. > > This is obvious by the fact the age of death curve is tri modal. One > mode is centered at about 10, one mode is in the late twenties, and the > last in the early eighties > > From the data it appears that the biological life span has not changed, > what has changed is the life spans affected by disease and such. > > I have 100 year olds born in the 1700's and in the 1900's This "end > point" appears not to have changed with modern medicine and health care > practices. Absolutely. Life expectancy has not changed at all because all the statistics are skewed by the numbers of child and infant deaths. Humankind has long had the capacity to live until 80, 90 or even 100. But, if anything, people are not dying older, on average, but younger. My studies show more and more deaths of people in their 50s and 60s. The more they move to the cities, the younger they die.

On 31/07/2013 10:49, Ian Goddard wrote: > Geoff Pearson wrote: > >> However, interesting question: does anyone have a proven ancestor >> only 5 generations back living before 1700? Given that we normally >> allow 30 years per generation it will be very good going but could >> be done. > > OP wrote 5x *great grandfather*. Add on father & grandfather so > we're dealing with 7 previous generations, not 5. Does anyone have a > 5xggfather living before 1700? Well, for a start: > > John Goddard, my 5x ggfather, bapt 25 Jul 1687, Holmfirth chapel, > Almondbury parish, bur 21 Aug 1750, Kirkburton, was mine. He married > 1711. Nearly. My 5x great-grandfather, John Bury, was born about 1706 (or perhaps earlier). He was born when his father was about 40 years old, and had his own son when he, himself was about 27 years old. There was a similar 27-year gap between the next three generations, then a 42-year gap, a 49-year gap until the birth of my grandfather, who was aged 53 and dead when my mother was born.

On 31/07/2013 16:29, CWatters wrote: > On 30/07/2013 20:25, Roberto Gerry wrote: >> Hi, I´m from Argentina and I´m looking for my ancestors. They arrived >> to Argentina in 1860 aprox. I know theirs names: Thomas Gerry and >> Margarita Smith. The problem is: I don't know when and where they >> lived in UK. If somebody knows, please, help me! Thanks a lot and I´m >> so sorry for my spelling or/and grammar mistakes! Roberto M. Gerry >> > > Back in 2010 you posted a similar question but addede.. > >> Thomas' parents were James Gerry & Elizabeth Herring(?) and >> Margarita's parents were James Smith and Bridgit Keeghan or Kighan. >> Thank you!. > FreeBMD has this possible marriage for the parents of James Marriages Sep 1854 Gerry James Launceston 5c 45 HERRING Elizabeth Launceston 5c 45 Jasper John Launceston 5c 45 Stevens Elizabeth Launceston 5c 45 Launceston is a registration district in the county of Cornwall (south west England). The 1861 census has... Name: James Gerry Age: 33 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1828 Relation: Head Spouse's Name: Elizabeth Gerry Gender: Male Where born: Tetcott, Devon, England Civil Parish: South Petherwin County/Island: Cornwall Country: England Street Address: Occupation: Condition as to marriage: Registration District: Launceston Sub-registration District: Northill ED, institution, or vessel: 11 Neighbors: View others on page Household Schedule Number: 61 Piece: 1521 Folio: 139 Page Number: 12 Household Members: Name Age James Gerry 33 Elizabeth Gerry 33 Elizabeth Herring 11 Anna Maria Geuy 6 George Henry Geuy 4 James Geuy 3 Charles Geuy 5 Months I suspect that "Geuy" should also be "Gerry". Then there are these possible births.. Births Dec 1853 GERRY Thomas Stratton Launceston 5c 30 Births Dec 1861 GERRY Thomas Launceston 5c 25 Births Sep 1864 GERRY Thomas Launceston 5c 23 I couldn't see this family in the 1871 census but I didn't look very long.

On 30/07/2013 20:25, Roberto Gerry wrote: > Hi, I´m from Argentina and I´m looking for my ancestors. They arrived > to Argentina in 1860 aprox. I know theirs names: Thomas Gerry and > Margarita Smith. The problem is: I don't know when and where they > lived in UK. If somebody knows, please, help me! Thanks a lot and I´m > so sorry for my spelling or/and grammar mistakes! Roberto M. Gerry > Back in 2010 you posted a similar question but addede.. > Thomas' parents were James Gerry & Elizabeth Herring(?) and > Margarita's parents were James Smith and Bridgit Keeghan or Kighan. > Thank you!.

On 30/07/2013 20:25, Roberto Gerry wrote: > Hi, I´m from Argentina and I´m looking for my ancestors. They arrived to Argentina in 1860 aprox. I know theirs names: Thomas Gerry and Margarita Smith. > The problem is: I don't know when and where they lived in UK. If somebody knows, please, help me! Thanks a lot and I´m so sorry for my spelling or/and grammar mistakes! > Roberto M. Gerry > The familysearch site has this birth record but perhaps a bit late.. Name: William Mc Gerry Gender: Male Christening Date: Christening Place: Birth Date: 06 Jan 1866 Birthplace: EDINBURGH PARISH,EDINBURGH,MIDLOTHIAN,SCOTLAND Death Date: Name Note: Race: Father's Name: Thomas Mc Gerry Father's Birthplace: Father's Age: Mother's Name: Margaret Smith Mother's Birthplace: Mother's Age: Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C11685-2 System Origin: Scotland-ODM GS Film number: 6035516 Reference ID:

On Wed, 31 Jul 2013 08:30:09 -0400, knuttle <keith_nuttle@sbcglobal.net> wrote: >On 7/31/2013 7:23 AM, Chris Dickinson wrote: >> The discussion about generations reminds me of a family, Mirehouse of Miresyke in Loweswater in Cumberland, who had a cluster of long living males. >> >> >> John Mirehouse of Miresyke, senior, was buried in 1771 at the age of 92 (according to the parish register) >> His eldest son, John, was buried in 1807, aged 101 (ditto - consistent with the parish register baptism) >> His eldest son, John, was buried in 1818, aged 76 (tombstone - consistent with the parish register baptism); and second son Joseph was buried in 1828, aged 88 (ditto) >> >> >> Furthermore, the first John's brother-in-law died in 1780, aged 99, and supposedly had a daughter from a third wife in 1765 [she remained a spinster, so I imagine the community thought her fathered by someone else] >> >> Anyone else with a family like this? >> >> >> Chris >> > >One of the interesting facts I have observed from my families is that >while the average age of death has changed over the decades, the change >is caused by the reduction in infant and child birth deaths. > >This is obvious by the fact the age of death curve is tri modal. One >mode is centered at about 10, one mode is in the late twenties, and the >last in the early eighties > > From the data it appears that the biological life span has not changed, >what has changed is the life spans affected by disease and such. > >I have 100 year olds born in the 1700's and in the 1900's This "end >point" appears not to have changed with modern medicine and health care >practices. > Increasing numbers of ailments seem to have hereditary elements attributed to them so the families with a long line of long-livers are possibly also examples of where such bad traits are lacking. Leaving aside accidents and ailments probably due to external causes, most of the lines going back on my mother's side have people living into their 80s and 90s for the last couple of centuries. My father's side doesn't look so pretty with most dying in their 60s even in recent times.

> -----Original Message----- > From: genbrit-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:genbrit- > bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of roy.stockdill@btinternet.com > Sent: 31 July 2013 10:58 > To: genbrit@rootsweb.com; Tim Powys-Lybbe > Subject: Re: How many living descendants are there of Oliver Cromwell? > > From: Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org> > > > I share your relationship to Cromwell's line but, like Roy, I would > > like to be his descendant. Cromwell brought order out of chaos. > > While he was a butcher in Ireland, in other respects he was moderate > > and tolerant. He did not have time for the many fanatics that were > > around and struggled with the problem of how to install a > > non-monarchical government that could survive. He may have failed in > > his lifetime but his legacy lives on in the dictum that 'Parliament is > > Sovereign' and decides both laws and monarchs. > > > > Read his writings and the biographies of him and perhaps you will > > understand why he is held in such respect. > > > > "Paint me as I am, warts and all" - O. Cromwell. > > > > -- > > Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org > > for a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/> > > I agree with Tim. Oliver Cromwell was a great man of his time and much > misunderstood and maligned. > > Apart from the things Tim mentions, Cromwell came from literally nowhere, > an obscure country squire with no real military background or experience, to > found the first fully professional army in British history, the New Model > Army, which was the origins of the British Army as we know it today. Without > the dedication and foresight of Cromwell, Charles I and his Royalists would > probably have won the Civil War and the absolute rule of tyrannical > monarchy would have lasted much longer than it did. > > Cromwell, as I said, was a man of his time - and people's actions can only ever > be judged by the social mores and standards that existed at the time, not > with the advantage of hindsight and a mindset of modern values. The > suppression of Ireland had begun long before Cromwell came on the scene. > > -- > Roy Stockdill > Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer > Famous family trees blog: http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/tag/roy-stockdill/ > I also agree with Tim and Roy that Oliver Cromwell has been misunderstood and that he fought the Irish campaign by the tenets of his day. However, he didn't found the New Model Army; this was set up by Parliament under the command of Black Tom Fairfax of Nun Appleton with Cromwell as Lieutenant-General of Cavalry and subordinate to Fairfax. This was the situation throughout the English Civil war. In 1650, when the Scots declared for Charles II, Parliament decided to send an army to Scotland to prevent the Scots invading England. Fairfax disagreed with this decision and resigned his commission. Cromwell was appointed as his successor. Fairfax was widely regarded as a man of great integrity and was instrumental in the restoration of the monarchy in 1660. -- Kushti bok, Chris Westmoreland

> On 06/06/2012 16:32, Brian Austin wrote: > > You have to be a bit careful about blanket acceptance of the stories of > > Cromwell's massacres in Ireland. > > I was at his house in Ely today. Information posted up there mentions at > least two massacres in Ireland (I wasn't counting) but adds that these > were "normal" for the period and there were massacres carried out by > both sides. > There was a lot of it about - and the Irish were by no means blameless, having a fine line is exterminating Protestants, man woman and child. Remember 'like the wild Irish, I'll not think thee dead Till I can play at football with thine head.' Cromwell is blamed for a lot he didn't do, and a lot he had to do if he wasn't to let anarchy rule. I've always thought of him as one of the good guys (Like Henry VII) who has suffered a lot from media misrepresentation. Charles (I) may have been better dressed, but he was a bad lot politically and definitely needed taking in hand. EVE Author of The McLaughlin Guides for Family Historians Secretary, Bucks Genealogical Society

The discussion about generations reminds me of a family, Mirehouse of Miresyke in Loweswater in Cumberland, who had a cluster of long living males.     John Mirehouse of Miresyke, senior, was buried in 1771 at the age of 92 (according to the parish register) His eldest son, John, was buried in 1807, aged 101 (ditto - consistent with the parish register baptism) His eldest son, John, was buried in 1818, aged 76 (tombstone - consistent with the parish register baptism); and second son Joseph was buried in 1828, aged 88 (ditto)     Furthermore, the first John's brother-in-law died in 1780, aged 99, and supposedly had a daughter from a third wife in 1765 [she remained a spinster, so I imagine the community thought her fathered by someone else]   Anyone else with a family like this?     Chris