From: stainless <mark.wingfield@sky.com> > John Adwick (household 123) is clearly a Chelsea pensioner but I cannot read > the rest of the text in the occupation. It may have "per diem" as part of the > text but not sure. > > The image link is below. > > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/61801163/1851EnglandCensus_325391889.jpg > > > Any help accepted> The text reads "1/0 per diem", so he was a Chelsea Pensioner receiving one shilling a day. -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Famous family trees blog: http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/tag/roy-stockdill/ "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

Renia wrote: > On 10/08/2013 10:59, Anne Chambers wrote: >> Graeme Wall wrote: >>> On 10/08/2013 08:36, Anne Chambers wrote: >>>> Renia wrote: >>>> >>>>> 1907 Dec 3 - W W Clark joined RAF Technical rank QMS (T) >>>> >>>> There was no RAF in 1907. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> Missed that one! >>> >> I can't see the point in George E Clark age 2 in 1891 either. > > > I said these were suspected sightings. I added that one, because this was some kind of nursing home or creche > for babies and toddlers, with no mothers present. > > My tentative theory is that this little George E Clark was living in this nursing home, while his suspected > mother, Caroline Fowler, was was living as a domestic servant in Kensington in 1891. > > I could not find any other Caroline Fowler/Clark or George/Whittle/Clark/Fowler in this census. Doesn't mean > this is the chap in question, but it would make sense that his mother would leave him in care while she earnt > a living. > > George Whittle Clark/Fowler had a Whittle connection, whether by blood or by godparent, and if he did, then > the Whittles seem to have been travellers, wandering players, circus people, Romanies. If, years later, George > Whittle Clark wanted to disappear, then joining a troupe of travelling entertainers would be the perfect way > to do so. But George Edward Clark was the man Caroline Fowler married - William Whittle Fowler/Clark was her son -- Anne Chambers South Australia anne dot chambers at bigpond dot com

On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 02:54:42 +0100, Renia <renia@otenet.gr> wrote: >On 10/08/2013 17:48, Charles Ellson wrote: >> On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 02:01:01 +0100, Renia <renia@otenet.gr> wrote: >- >>> 1915 July 14 - William W Clark married Susan E Horlock in Wanstead >>> Parish church, London, Essex >>> >> (Wanstead, Essex; postal address Wanstead, LONDON E??) > >No. It was Essex, is now London. > In 1915 it was as I described, the London Postal Area was a 19th century invention. Essex was the administrative county containing Wanstead, London was the postal county. Birth registrations in my collection for events in the London Postal Area going up to the 1960s append the local authority to addresses in the columns for "when and where..." and "occupation of father" but the postal sub-district name _or_ number (or sometimes both) to the informant's address thus often not mentioning London at all except to specify the county within which the registration district was located. Other parts of officialdom also did likewise with events at LPA addresses still being described well into the 20th century as e.g. Middlesex or Essex in PRFD indexes, again often with no mention at all of the postal area (i.e. "London"). It is also only in relatively recent years that registration districts have been well-matched to local authority areas in England and Wales. >Info from OP who has probably seen the >original or got the info from his daughters. I don't think the marriage >is in question. > > >> This seems to be the safest starting point if it matches what was >> known when he was last seen by the family in 1933; the marriage >> registration should give the name and occupation of William's father >> which can then be compared with birth/baptism information. ATM my >> money is on William George W CLARK, whose birth registration ought >> to reveal what the "W" is. OTOH I wouldn't totally rule out the >> Marylebone birth if the person recorded in censuses as born in West >> Ham was another example of someone mistakenly believing they were >> born where they were brought up or of being asked the wrong question >> of "Where are you from?" rather than being asked for their place of >> birth. > >For what it's worth, I think Anne Chambers's discovery of the birth of >William Whattle Fowler is the correct one. The right hospital on the >right day. Unlikely there were two William Whittle somethings born on >the same day in the same hospital.

On 10/08/2013 21:29, Anne Chambers wrote: > Renia wrote: >> George Whittle Clark/Fowler had a Whittle connection, whether by blood >> or by godparent, and if he did, then >> the Whittles seem to have been travellers, wandering players, circus >> people, Romanies. If, years later, George >> Whittle Clark wanted to disappear, then joining a troupe of travelling >> entertainers would be the perfect way >> to do so. > But George Edward Clark was the man Caroline Fowler married - William > Whittle Fowler/Clark was her son Yes, sorry. That should have read William Whittle Clark / Fowler had a Whittle connection . . .

On 10/08/2013 17:48, Charles Ellson wrote: > On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 02:01:01 +0100, Renia <renia@otenet.gr> wrote: - >> 1915 July 14 - William W Clark married Susan E Horlock in Wanstead >> Parish church, London, Essex >> > (Wanstead, Essex; postal address Wanstead, LONDON E??) No. It was Essex, is now London. Info from OP who has probably seen the original or got the info from his daughters. I don't think the marriage is in question. > This seems to be the safest starting point if it matches what was > known when he was last seen by the family in 1933; the marriage > registration should give the name and occupation of William's father > which can then be compared with birth/baptism information. ATM my > money is on William George W CLARK, whose birth registration ought > to reveal what the "W" is. OTOH I wouldn't totally rule out the > Marylebone birth if the person recorded in censuses as born in West > Ham was another example of someone mistakenly believing they were > born where they were brought up or of being asked the wrong question > of "Where are you from?" rather than being asked for their place of > birth. For what it's worth, I think Anne Chambers's discovery of the birth of William Whattle Fowler is the correct one. The right hospital on the right day. Unlikely there were two William Whittle somethings born on the same day in the same hospital.

On 10/08/13 18:47, Graeme Wall wrote: > On 10/08/2013 17:53, stainless wrote: >> John Adwick (household 123) is clearly a Chelsea pensioner but I >> cannot read the rest of the text in the occupation. It may have "per >> diem" as part of the text but not sure. >> >> The image link is below. >> >> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/61801163/1851EnglandCensus_325391889.jpg > > at 1/- per diem It seems a plausible amount, too. When the state pension was introduced in 1909, the amount received by a married couple was 7/6d a week. Richard

"Evertjan." wrote in message news:XnsA218D4A2FB4AEeejj99@194.109.133.133... polygonum wrote on 10 aug 2013 in soc.genealogy.britain: >> at 1/- per diem >> >> NB 1/-is one shilling or 10p >> > I'd agree up to the 10p - one shilling was 5p :No, 1s was 12d. :There were 20s in the £, btw. 1s = 12d = 5p (d = old pence, p = new pence) £1 = 20s = 240d = 100p and to complete the set, 1 guinea = 21s. Ah yes, I remember it well... Lesley Robertson

polygonum wrote on 10 aug 2013 in soc.genealogy.britain: >> at 1/- per diem >> >> NB 1/-is one shilling or 10p >> > I'd agree up to the 10p - one shilling was 5p No, 1s was 12d. There were 20s in the £, btw. -- Evertjan. The Netherlands. (Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)

Graeme Wall wrote: > > NB 1/-is one shilling or 10p > No. A shilling is 5p. Just a reminder of how our money has shrunk :( -- Ian The Hotmail address is my spam-bin. Real mail address is iang at austonley org uk

On 10/08/2013 19:54, Evertjan. wrote: > polygonum wrote on 10 aug 2013 in soc.genealogy.britain: > >>> at 1/- per diem >>> >>> NB 1/-is one shilling or 10p >>> >> I'd agree up to the 10p - one shilling was 5p > > No, 1s was 12d. > > There were 20s in the £, btw. > 12d = 5p, so a shilling converted to 5 new pence. 240 d in the pound. 60 d in the crown 30 d in the half crown 24 d in the florin -- Rod

On 10/08/2013 19:08, polygonum wrote: > On 10/08/2013 18:47, Graeme Wall wrote: >> On 10/08/2013 17:53, stainless wrote: >>> John Adwick (household 123) is clearly a Chelsea pensioner but I >>> cannot read the rest of the text in the occupation. It may have "per >>> diem" as part of the text but not sure. >>> >>> The image link is below. >>> >>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/61801163/1851EnglandCensus_325391889.jpg >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Any help accepted >>> >> at 1/- per diem >> >> NB 1/-is one shilling or 10p >> > I'd agree up to the 10p - one shilling was 5p. > > See: > > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/INDIA/2005-01/1104944698 > Of course it was, brain in neutral! -- Graeme Wall This account not read, substitute trains for rail. Railway Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail>

Graeme Wall wrote: > On 10/08/2013 08:36, Anne Chambers wrote: >> Renia wrote: >> >>> 1907 Dec 3 - W W Clark joined RAF Technical rank QMS (T) >> >> There was no RAF in 1907. >> >> > > Missed that one! > I can't see the point in George E Clark age 2 in 1891 either. -- Anne Chambers South Australia anne dot chambers at bigpond dot com

On 10/08/2013 18:47, Graeme Wall wrote: > On 10/08/2013 17:53, stainless wrote: >> John Adwick (household 123) is clearly a Chelsea pensioner but I >> cannot read the rest of the text in the occupation. It may have "per >> diem" as part of the text but not sure. >> >> The image link is below. >> >> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/61801163/1851EnglandCensus_325391889.jpg >> >> >> >> Any help accepted >> > at 1/- per diem > > NB 1/-is one shilling or 10p > I'd agree up to the 10p - one shilling was 5p. See: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/INDIA/2005-01/1104944698 -- Rod

On 10/08/2013 17:53, stainless wrote: > John Adwick (household 123) is clearly a Chelsea pensioner but I cannot read the rest of the text in the occupation. It may have "per diem" as part of the text but not sure. > > The image link is below. > > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/61801163/1851EnglandCensus_325391889.jpg > > > Any help accepted > at 1/- per diem NB 1/-is one shilling or 10p -- Graeme Wall This account not read, substitute trains for rail. Railway Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail>

On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 02:01:01 +0100, Renia <renia@otenet.gr> wrote: >On 09/08/2013 14:53, chaswrdrown@ yahoo.co.uk wrote: >> Hi, >> Does anyone out there have any information as to the death of >> WILLIAM WHITTLE CLARK. >> We believe it may have been in 1940's but have been unable to >> find any reference to him in the FRO. >> >> Did he go abroad or change his name?? >> >> He was born on 01 June 1889 in Queen Charlotte's Hosp. Marylebone. >> He married SUSAN HORLOCK 14 July 1915 in Wanstead Parish church, >> East London (then in Essex). >> In 1933 he left home in Biggin Hill, never to be seen again by his >> wife and two daughters. >> His (now elderly) daughters are anxious to know what happened to him. >> >> Can any descendants of his step-siblings help? >> Can any one else help please?? > >So, a resume of what is known or suspected, according to the good people >here: > >1889 Jun 1st - William Whittle Clark born Queen Charlotte's Hospital, >Marylebone >1889 Jun qr - William Whittle Fowler born Marylebone >1889 Jun 6 - William Whittle Fowler bapt St Mark, Marylebone (b 1 Jun >1889, Queen Charlotte's Hospital, Marylebone son of Caroline Fowler) >1891 - Caroline Fowler (age 23, b Stepney) a domestic at 29 Barkstone >Mansions, Kensington >1891 - George E Clark (age 2 born St James's London) boarder with other >babies and infants >1892 - George Edward Clark married Caroline Fowler in West Ham area >1901 - William Clark living in Wanstead with parents George & Caroline >1907 Dec 3 - W W Clark joined RAF Technical rank QMS (T) >1911 - William Whittle Clark in census as Gunner RA, born West Ham >1911 - >1915 July 14 - William W Clark married Susan E Horlock in Wanstead >Parish church, London, Essex > (Wanstead, Essex; postal address Wanstead, LONDON E??) This seems to be the safest starting point if it matches what was known when he was last seen by the family in 1933; the marriage registration should give the name and occupation of William's father which can then be compared with birth/baptism information. ATM my money is on William George W CLARK, whose birth registration ought to reveal what the "W" is. OTOH I wouldn't totally rule out the Marylebone birth if the person recorded in censuses as born in West Ham was another example of someone mistakenly believing they were born where they were brought up or of being asked the wrong question of "Where are you from?" rather than being asked for their place of birth. >1916 Mar 1 - W W Clark promoted to Master Mechanic in RAF >1918 - W W Clark in RAF Muster Roll >1918-1928 - William Whittle Clark in RAF personnel >1933 - William Whittle Clark left home in Biggin Hill > >A William G W Clark died in the Thurrock area of Essex in 1966 aged 77. >A William G W Clark married Ivy E Jordan in 1917 in Dover, Kent who may >be the William G W Clark who died in the Maidstone area in 1920 (aged 26) > >The computations for finding this man are endless. It reminds me a bit >of Minnie Driver's father, who kept his Air Force life secret, threw his >DFC away and led a double life after psychiatric troubles as a result of >his war experiences. Perhaps William Whittle Clark felt much the same. >Perhaps he even ran away to join the circus?! > > >Some people on Rootschat were discussing Whittles, who were travelling >showmen, predominantly in Essex, thought they got around a bit. There >also seems to have been a Whittles circus. > >http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,314684.10.html

On 10/08/2013 16:35, Renia wrote: > On 10/08/2013 15:47, Graeme Wall wrote: >> On 10/08/2013 11:54, Renia wrote: >>> On 10/08/2013 08:06, Graeme Wall wrote: >>>> On 10/08/2013 02:01, Renia wrote: >>> >>>>> So, a resume of what is known or suspected, according to the good >>>>> people >>>>> here: >>>>> >>>>> 1889 Jun 1st - William Whittle Clark born Queen Charlotte's Hospital, >>>>> Marylebone >>>>> 1889 Jun qr - William Whittle Fowler born Marylebone >>>>> 1889 Jun 6 - William Whittle Fowler bapt St Mark, Marylebone (b 1 Jun >>>>> 1889, Queen Charlotte's Hospital, Marylebone son of Caroline Fowler) >>>>> 1891 - Caroline Fowler (age 23, b Stepney) a domestic at 29 Barkstone >>>>> Mansions, Kensington >>>>> 1891 - George E Clark (age 2 born St James's London) boarder with >>>>> other >>>>> babies and infants >>>>> 1892 - George Edward Clark married Caroline Fowler in West Ham area >>>>> 1901 - William Clark living in Wanstead with parents George & Caroline >>>>> 1907 Dec 3 - W W Clark joined RAF Technical rank QMS (T) >>>>> 1911 - William Whittle Clark in census as Gunner RA, born West Ham >>>>> 1911 - >>>>> 1915 July 14 - William W Clark married Susan E Horlock in Wanstead >>>>> Parish church, London, Essex >>>>> 1916 Mar 1 - W W Clark promoted to Master Mechanic in RAF >>>> >>>> Quick point, there was no RAF in 1916, Army Air Corps perhaps? Doh! I meant Royal Flying Corps >>> >>> Neither was there an RAF in 1907. As someone said, some parts (the >>> mechanical parts) of the Royal Artillery became part of the RAF in 1918. >>> This 1907 and 1916 info comes from the 1918 RAF muster. >> >> Does it actually say RAF? > > > FindMyPast: > > Royal Air Force Muster Roll 1918 Britain Full & World > > Search for William Whittle Clark (with variants): > > Clark W W 869 (then you can look at the document which I can't > repeat here) > > Thanks, unfortunately I don't have an FMP sub so can't see it. I wondered whether there was a misreading for RFC. No trace of him in the London Gazette that I can see. -- Graeme Wall This account not read, substitute trains for rail. Railway Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail>

Renia wrote: > 1907 Dec 3 - W W Clark joined RAF Technical rank QMS (T) There was no RAF in 1907. -- Anne Chambers South Australia anne dot chambers at bigpond dot com

On 10/08/2013 15:47, Graeme Wall wrote: > On 10/08/2013 11:54, Renia wrote: >> On 10/08/2013 08:06, Graeme Wall wrote: >>> On 10/08/2013 02:01, Renia wrote: >> >>>> So, a resume of what is known or suspected, according to the good >>>> people >>>> here: >>>> >>>> 1889 Jun 1st - William Whittle Clark born Queen Charlotte's Hospital, >>>> Marylebone >>>> 1889 Jun qr - William Whittle Fowler born Marylebone >>>> 1889 Jun 6 - William Whittle Fowler bapt St Mark, Marylebone (b 1 Jun >>>> 1889, Queen Charlotte's Hospital, Marylebone son of Caroline Fowler) >>>> 1891 - Caroline Fowler (age 23, b Stepney) a domestic at 29 Barkstone >>>> Mansions, Kensington >>>> 1891 - George E Clark (age 2 born St James's London) boarder with other >>>> babies and infants >>>> 1892 - George Edward Clark married Caroline Fowler in West Ham area >>>> 1901 - William Clark living in Wanstead with parents George & Caroline >>>> 1907 Dec 3 - W W Clark joined RAF Technical rank QMS (T) >>>> 1911 - William Whittle Clark in census as Gunner RA, born West Ham >>>> 1911 - >>>> 1915 July 14 - William W Clark married Susan E Horlock in Wanstead >>>> Parish church, London, Essex >>>> 1916 Mar 1 - W W Clark promoted to Master Mechanic in RAF >>> >>> Quick point, there was no RAF in 1916, Army Air Corps perhaps? >> >> Neither was there an RAF in 1907. As someone said, some parts (the >> mechanical parts) of the Royal Artillery became part of the RAF in 1918. >> This 1907 and 1916 info comes from the 1918 RAF muster. > > Does it actually say RAF? FindMyPast: Royal Air Force Muster Roll 1918 Britain Full & World Search for William Whittle Clark (with variants): Clark W W 869 (then you can look at the document which I can't repeat here)

On 10/08/2013 11:54, Renia wrote: > On 10/08/2013 08:06, Graeme Wall wrote: >> On 10/08/2013 02:01, Renia wrote: > >>> So, a resume of what is known or suspected, according to the good people >>> here: >>> >>> 1889 Jun 1st - William Whittle Clark born Queen Charlotte's Hospital, >>> Marylebone >>> 1889 Jun qr - William Whittle Fowler born Marylebone >>> 1889 Jun 6 - William Whittle Fowler bapt St Mark, Marylebone (b 1 Jun >>> 1889, Queen Charlotte's Hospital, Marylebone son of Caroline Fowler) >>> 1891 - Caroline Fowler (age 23, b Stepney) a domestic at 29 Barkstone >>> Mansions, Kensington >>> 1891 - George E Clark (age 2 born St James's London) boarder with other >>> babies and infants >>> 1892 - George Edward Clark married Caroline Fowler in West Ham area >>> 1901 - William Clark living in Wanstead with parents George & Caroline >>> 1907 Dec 3 - W W Clark joined RAF Technical rank QMS (T) >>> 1911 - William Whittle Clark in census as Gunner RA, born West Ham >>> 1911 - >>> 1915 July 14 - William W Clark married Susan E Horlock in Wanstead >>> Parish church, London, Essex >>> 1916 Mar 1 - W W Clark promoted to Master Mechanic in RAF >> >> Quick point, there was no RAF in 1916, Army Air Corps perhaps? > > Neither was there an RAF in 1907. As someone said, some parts (the > mechanical parts) of the Royal Artillery became part of the RAF in 1918. > This 1907 and 1916 info comes from the 1918 RAF muster. Does it actually say RAF? -- Graeme Wall This account not read, substitute trains for rail. Railway Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail>

Hi Ron, I know this thread is nearly 4 years old but in the hope you may come across this... I too am tracing the exact same people and have come across the same problem. I was wondering if by chance you managed to gather any further information about Samuel & Phyllis from 1891 or indeed anything else that I may not have discovered yet. Are you on Genes Reunited, or do you have a tree I could look at? Samuel & Phyllis were my partner's Gt Gt Nan & Grandad on his father's side and I have managed to gather a bit of information so far about this side of the family (only been researching for the last few weeks). Most seem to be from Essex / South London. Regards, Sam