On 2013-08-15 17:41:30 +0000, Richard Smith said: > On 14/08/13 11:12, Tickettyboo wrote: > >> Can't find a baptism for a Fred(erick) born c1872 or John born c1874, >> but the likely church records (St Stephen/ St Ambrose) are not on >> ancestry for those dates- though I have searched on all churches too). > > You've found several occasions when John has given his age, each of > which give different estimates for his date of birth: > > death certificate: b 9 Feb 1874 to 8 Feb 1875. > 1911 census: b 3 Apr 1874 to 2 Apr 1875. > 1901 census: b 1 Apr 1874 to 31 Mar 1875. > marriage certificate: b 9 Aug 1872 to 8 Aug 1873. > 1891 census: b 6 Apr 1874 to 5 Apr 1875. > > Assuming you've not made a typo in your post (and I've not > miscalculated), the marriage stands apart from the others. Probably it > is the marriage is the wrong one, but I wouldn't dismiss the > possibility that the others are all wrong. I do take your point, Its the age old scenario of not knowing 'who' gave the info and how well informed they were so I have factored in that sort of time span when I have been searching to try to pin John down. > > Nowhere is a middle name mentioned, and in particular not on the death > certificate, probate record or marriage certificate. (Censuses are > much more hit and miss with middle names.) That suggests that more > likely than not, he didn't have a middle name. > > If we look through the birth registrations for the Liverpool district > for the years 1872-1875 (i.e. the period consistent with at least one > of the records, above), FreeBMD only has one John Wilson without a > middle name: John Wilson, b reg Q3 1873, Liverpool [8b 116]. That > might be worth a shot. Thanks for looking, its appreciated. Though there is only one registration for the 'Liverpool' District for John (no middle name) Wilson there are another dozen in West Derby District in that time frame. http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/west%20derby.html shows the list of places covered by West Derby District over the years and I would hazard a guess that the majority of the folk registered there would, if asked , say they were born in Liverpool so I can't discount them. >> It kind of 'feels' right, but though my gut feeling is that its >> possible, I feel I am chasing shadows, I get near to a conclusion and >> then it slips away from me. > > It feels right to me too. > > However, to explore another possibility, I looked up Susannah Dean, one > of the witnesses on the marriage. The name is unusual enough that > there's only one plausible person, and in 1891 she was living in 34 > Fowler Street, Everton with her adult siblings. Four doors away, in 42 > Fowler Street are a William H Wilson and his wife Mary J Wilson, both > aged 43. Could your John be a son of them? He's the right age, but > the professions don't really match. William H Wilson worked for HM > Customs; your William was described as a sample man. (I wondered > whether a sample man might be something in the tailoring trade. > Something to do with samples of fabric. But I don't really know.) > Looking back through my notes, I have looked at these people (probably for the same reasons you suggest) and I discounted them as ten years earlier , when John would have been about 5-7 years old, the census shows the other children but no John - and so far I haven't found a stray John Wilson in the 1881 census who could be the child of William H and Mary J, nor is there any sign of a baptism for John to parents William Henry and Mary J -though I can see their other children being baptised. I couldn't read the word that looks like 'Ouldra' either and on the baptism records for the three younger children William H is down as Customs House Officer or Weight taker and - for the eldest, Harry, William was recorded as a labourer. Thanks again, another pair of eyes is always a help :-) -- Tickettyboo

Phil C. wrote: > > If a Sheaf did marry a Sheaf, I expect this would be the hymn sung at the wedding <http://tinyurl.com/ogrbkoe> Even before I clicked on the link, I knew what it would be...consider yourself rapped over the knuckles, young Phil ! -- Anne Chambers South Australia anne dot chambers at bigpond dot com

On 2013-08-15 16:28:35 +0000, Mick said: > On Thu, 15 Aug 2013 15:34:31 +0100, Tickettyboo > <tickettyboo@mail2oops.com> wrote: > >> On 2013-08-15 09:02:34 +0000, Mick said: >> >>> Hi all, >>> Are there any cremation name and date indexes available for the >>> Isle of Wight or the UK? >>> I have goggled and looked at genealogy sites but can only find burial >>> indexes >>> >>> Mick. IOW. >> >> Local archives offices may have the crematorium records. Other than >> that, I often use online books of remembrance to verify dates of death >> etc. >> <snip> > > Thank you, I cannot find anything for the Isle Of Wight > Have been right over their web site. > > With mostly cremations now this will be a growing need! > > Please tell me you are moving to the IOW :-) > Mick IOW. he he :-) No, after a long time flitting from place to place we have 'finally' retired and settled so no, I wont be moving again :-) If you think there may be a crematorium record for someone you are looking for, have you tried contacting the bereavement services dept of IOW to ask about records and access? They may not be aware that there are folk like us who would be interested in accessing the records/ book of remembrance. I find that email is a better option than telephone as it gives the recipient a bit more time to deal with a query and quite often they can be really helpful -- Tickettyboo

On 15/08/2013 6:41 PM, Richard Smith wrote: > On 14/08/13 11:12, Tickettyboo wrote: > >> Can't find a baptism for a Fred(erick) born c1872 or John born c1874, >> but the likely church records (St Stephen/ St Ambrose) are not on >> ancestry for those dates- though I have searched on all churches too). > You've found several occasions when John has given his age, each of > which give different estimates for his date of birth: > > death certificate: b 9 Feb 1874 to 8 Feb 1875. > 1911 census: b 3 Apr 1874 to 2 Apr 1875. > 1901 census: b 1 Apr 1874 to 31 Mar 1875. > marriage certificate: b 9 Aug 1872 to 8 Aug 1873. > 1891 census: b 6 Apr 1874 to 5 Apr 1875. > > Assuming you've not made a typo in your post (and I've not > miscalculated), the marriage stands apart from the others. Probably it > is the marriage is the wrong one, but I wouldn't dismiss the possibility > that the others are all wrong. > > Nowhere is a middle name mentioned, and in particular not on the death > certificate, probate record or marriage certificate. (Censuses are much > more hit and miss with middle names.) That suggests that more likely > than not, he didn't have a middle name. > > If we look through the birth registrations for the Liverpool district > for the years 1872-1875 (i.e. the period consistent with at least one of > the records, above), FreeBMD only has one John Wilson without a middle > name: John Wilson, b reg Q3 1873, Liverpool [8b 116]. That might be > worth a shot. > >> It kind of 'feels' right, but though my gut feeling is that its >> possible, I feel I am chasing shadows, I get near to a conclusion and >> then it slips away from me. > It feels right to me too. > > However, to explore another possibility, I looked up Susannah Dean, one > of the witnesses on the marriage. The name is unusual enough that > there's only one plausible person, and in 1891 she was living in 34 > Fowler Street, Everton with her adult siblings. Four doors away, in 42 > Fowler Street are a William H Wilson and his wife Mary J Wilson, both > aged 43. Could your John be a son of them? He's the right age, but the > professions don't really match. William H Wilson worked for HM Customs; > your William was described as a sample man. (I wondered whether a > sample man might be something in the tailoring trade. Something to do > with samples of fabric. But I don't really know.) > > Richard > I had a quick look on Ancestry the other day for a possible service/pensions record for John Wilson. Then I got confused as to whether I was looking for Frederick or John. But I recall there is at least one John WILSON b. Liverpool 1874 [son of William and a pension record I think]. He is probably not "your" man, but look at the military records may help eliminate some of the candidates. Kind regards John Henley

On 15/08/13 19:18, wtwjgc (Joe) wrote: > It's possible a sample man could be someone employed by HM Customs & Excise > to test the quality of spirits in a bonded warehouse, ie, assessing for > duty charges. That's a possibility too. The 1891 census for William H Wilson describes him as a "[something] Officer HM Customs". I'm not sure what the [something] is, but it looks a lot like "Ouldoa". Richard

On 14/08/13 19:51, polygonum wrote: > Was it legal when the future Henry VIII married Catherine of Aragon? Yes and no. At the time, Canon Law (canon 109, I believe) prevent a widow from marrying her husband's close blood relatives, and similarly for widowers. Clearly that applied to Henry, the brother of Catherine's first husband, Arthur. However, they sought and received papal dispensation from Pope Julius II, which made it legal. When Henry wanted an annulment, he argued that the papal bull granting dispensation to marry was invalid. The crux of the argument was that the marriage was not only contrary to Canon Law, to which the Pope could grant dispensation, but also contrary to the Leviticus (20.16) "And if a man shall take his brother's wife, it is an unclean thing: he hath uncovered his brother's nakedness; they shall be childless." Henry argued that this applied here, and that whilst the Pope had the power to waive Canon Law, he did not have the authority to waive Leviticus. The Pope, now Clement VII, argued that Leviticus was referring specifically to the wife of a living brother, which of course Arthur wasn't, and refused to grant annulment, holding the original bull to have been valid. To what extent the fact that Clement VII was being held prisoner by Charles V, the Emperor, and nephew of Catherine, is relevant is unclear. Richard

On 14/08/13 11:12, Tickettyboo wrote: > Can't find a baptism for a Fred(erick) born c1872 or John born c1874, > but the likely church records (St Stephen/ St Ambrose) are not on > ancestry for those dates- though I have searched on all churches too). You've found several occasions when John has given his age, each of which give different estimates for his date of birth: death certificate: b 9 Feb 1874 to 8 Feb 1875. 1911 census: b 3 Apr 1874 to 2 Apr 1875. 1901 census: b 1 Apr 1874 to 31 Mar 1875. marriage certificate: b 9 Aug 1872 to 8 Aug 1873. 1891 census: b 6 Apr 1874 to 5 Apr 1875. Assuming you've not made a typo in your post (and I've not miscalculated), the marriage stands apart from the others. Probably it is the marriage is the wrong one, but I wouldn't dismiss the possibility that the others are all wrong. Nowhere is a middle name mentioned, and in particular not on the death certificate, probate record or marriage certificate. (Censuses are much more hit and miss with middle names.) That suggests that more likely than not, he didn't have a middle name. If we look through the birth registrations for the Liverpool district for the years 1872-1875 (i.e. the period consistent with at least one of the records, above), FreeBMD only has one John Wilson without a middle name: John Wilson, b reg Q3 1873, Liverpool [8b 116]. That might be worth a shot. > It kind of 'feels' right, but though my gut feeling is that its > possible, I feel I am chasing shadows, I get near to a conclusion and > then it slips away from me. It feels right to me too. However, to explore another possibility, I looked up Susannah Dean, one of the witnesses on the marriage. The name is unusual enough that there's only one plausible person, and in 1891 she was living in 34 Fowler Street, Everton with her adult siblings. Four doors away, in 42 Fowler Street are a William H Wilson and his wife Mary J Wilson, both aged 43. Could your John be a son of them? He's the right age, but the professions don't really match. William H Wilson worked for HM Customs; your William was described as a sample man. (I wondered whether a sample man might be something in the tailoring trade. Something to do with samples of fabric. But I don't really know.) Richard

On Thu, 15 Aug 2013 15:34:31 +0100, Tickettyboo <tickettyboo@mail2oops.com> wrote: >On 2013-08-15 09:02:34 +0000, Mick said: > >> Hi all, >> Are there any cremation name and date indexes available for the >> Isle of Wight or the UK? >> I have goggled and looked at genealogy sites but can only find burial >> indexes >> >> Mick. IOW. > >Local archives offices may have the crematorium records. Other than >that, I often use online books of remembrance to verify dates of death >etc. They are kind of hit and miss though. Firstly , the particular >crem may not 'have' an online version of their b-o-r and secondly an >entry is not an automatic thing, the name will only appear if the >relatives paid for an entry to be made. Another point is that often the >online b-o-r's are only searchable by date (the entry normally goes in >on the date of death) and if all you know is the quarter of the year >the person died in that can mean a long trawl though images to find if >they are in there. >The info you can find varies, from just a name and a brief message to >birth-death years and a list of relatives names, it all depends on what >the relatives specified (and paid for). Apart from all that, I have >found them to be a great source of info :-) > >To give you an example of one I have used for Birtley in Co. Durham, >their online book is here: > >http://www.remembrance-books.com/birtley/ > >and I got so fed up of trawling through 3 months worth of images (at up >to 3 images a day) to see if I could find folk, I transcribed the whole >shebang by name to make it easier for me (and others) to find names on >there.The transcription, if anyone is interested is here: > >https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/72670077/birtley.pdf > >Theory is, you see if the name is on the transcription then you can go >look at that date in the online book to see what it says. > >If there is anyone interested, I am in the process of doing the same >thing for Saltwell Crematorium, Gateshead, Co Durham. Their online >book is here: > >http://sites.bookofremembrance.eu/index2.php?site=gateshead > > and my transcription (currently for dates jan-sept only, but I am >working on the last quarter) is here: > >https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/72670077/saltwell-jan-sep.pdf > >I am hoping to do others as and when time permits > >[Disclaimer: I am not the world's best typist, so there may well be >errors, if anyone finds any, I will be happy to amend them] Thank you, I cannot find anything for the Isle Of Wight Have been right over their web site. With mostly cremations now this will be a growing need! Please tell me you are moving to the IOW :-) Mick IOW.

On 2013-08-15 09:02:34 +0000, Mick said: > Hi all, > Are there any cremation name and date indexes available for the > Isle of Wight or the UK? > I have goggled and looked at genealogy sites but can only find burial > indexes > > Mick. IOW. Local archives offices may have the crematorium records. Other than that, I often use online books of remembrance to verify dates of death etc. They are kind of hit and miss though. Firstly , the particular crem may not 'have' an online version of their b-o-r and secondly an entry is not an automatic thing, the name will only appear if the relatives paid for an entry to be made. Another point is that often the online b-o-r's are only searchable by date (the entry normally goes in on the date of death) and if all you know is the quarter of the year the person died in that can mean a long trawl though images to find if they are in there. The info you can find varies, from just a name and a brief message to birth-death years and a list of relatives names, it all depends on what the relatives specified (and paid for). Apart from all that, I have found them to be a great source of info :-) To give you an example of one I have used for Birtley in Co. Durham, their online book is here: http://www.remembrance-books.com/birtley/ and I got so fed up of trawling through 3 months worth of images (at up to 3 images a day) to see if I could find folk, I transcribed the whole shebang by name to make it easier for me (and others) to find names on there.The transcription, if anyone is interested is here: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/72670077/birtley.pdf Theory is, you see if the name is on the transcription then you can go look at that date in the online book to see what it says. If there is anyone interested, I am in the process of doing the same thing for Saltwell Crematorium, Gateshead, Co Durham. Their online book is here: http://sites.bookofremembrance.eu/index2.php?site=gateshead and my transcription (currently for dates jan-sept only, but I am working on the last quarter) is here: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/72670077/saltwell-jan-sep.pdf I am hoping to do others as and when time permits [Disclaimer: I am not the world's best typist, so there may well be errors, if anyone finds any, I will be happy to amend them] -- Tickettyboo

Richard Smith <richard@ex-parrot.com> wrote: > On 14/08/13 11:12, Tickettyboo wrote: > >> Can't find a baptism for a Fred(erick) born c1872 or John born c1874, >> but the likely church records (St Stephen/ St Ambrose) are not on >> ancestry for those dates- though I have searched on all churches too). > > You've found several occasions when John has given his age, each of which > give different estimates for his date of birth: > > death certificate: b 9 Feb 1874 to 8 Feb 1875. > 1911 census: b 3 Apr 1874 to 2 Apr 1875. > 1901 census: b 1 Apr 1874 to 31 Mar 1875. > marriage certificate: b 9 Aug 1872 to 8 Aug 1873. > 1891 census: b 6 Apr 1874 to 5 Apr 1875. > > Assuming you've not made a typo in your post (and I've not > miscalculated), the marriage stands apart from the others. Probably it > is the marriage is the wrong one, but I wouldn't dismiss the possibility > that the others are all wrong. > > Nowhere is a middle name mentioned, and in particular not on the death > certificate, probate record or marriage certificate. (Censuses are much > more hit and miss with middle names.) That suggests that more likely > than not, he didn't have a middle name. > > If we look through the birth registrations for the Liverpool district for > the years 1872-1875 (i.e. the period consistent with at least one of the > records, above), FreeBMD only has one John Wilson without a middle name: > John Wilson, b reg Q3 1873, Liverpool [8b 116]. That might be worth a shot. > >> It kind of 'feels' right, but though my gut feeling is that its >> possible, I feel I am chasing shadows, I get near to a conclusion and >> then it slips away from me. > > It feels right to me too. > > However, to explore another possibility, I looked up Susannah Dean, one > of the witnesses on the marriage. The name is unusual enough that > there's only one plausible person, and in 1891 she was living in 34 > Fowler Street, Everton with her adult siblings. Four doors away, in 42 > Fowler Street are a William H Wilson and his wife Mary J Wilson, both > aged 43. Could your John be a son of them? He's the right age, but the > professions don't really match. William H Wilson worked for HM Customs; > your William was described as a sample man. (I wondered whether a sample > man might be something in the tailoring trade. Something to do with > samples of fabric. But I don't really know.) > > Richard It's possible a sample man could be someone employed by HM Customs & Excise to test the quality of spirits in a bonded warehouse, ie, assessing for duty charges. -- wtwjgc (Joe)

> > > If the first husband was a cousin, no problem. > > > > > Was it legal when the future Henry VIII married Catherine of Aragon? > Going back to cousins, what the rank and file did I've no idea, but I > believe that at the time of the complex dynasties of the Yorks and > Lancastrians it was necessary to get a Papal Dispensation for cousins to > marry. This came up in the recent series The White Queen and its > companion documentary. The White Queen, like the Tudors, is junk history (though the author, Philippa Gregory,of the former, does appear to know better than the producers.) Under Catholic rules, most sorts of close cousin marriage were forbidden - it was a nice little earner for the chiurch, since in rural communities, cousin marriage was the norm and inevitable. There was only sense in it when a hereditary medical condition existed in the family. Fortunately, farmers, way before genetics had been heard of, had a good grasp of what constituted a 'non-doer' animal or human. The post-Catholic situation was dealt with by a Table of Forbidden Degrees' between which matrimony was forbidden. The thinking behind a block on marrying your deceased wife's sister was that 'man and wife were one flesjh, and that flesh was the husband's so her sister was his., and any connection between them was incest Typical somehow, that when this marriage was made legal, the converwse situation of marriage to a deceased husband's brother was not cleared up for 20 years.. A fascinating little (Church Court) addition to a ban on marriage between blood relatives was that godchildren were considered as within the forbidden degrees. Too bad if your father or mother had been godparent to the most eligible heiress in the village... she was your sister. . > EVE Author of The McLaughlin Guides for Family Historians Secretary, Bucks Genealogical Society

If a Sheaf did marry a Sheaf, I expect this would be the hymn sung at the wedding <http://tinyurl.com/ogrbkoe> -- Phil C.

On 15/08/2013 10:02, Mick wrote: > Hi all, > Are there any cremation name and date indexes available for the > Isle of Wight or the UK? > I have goggled and looked at genealogy sites but can only find burial > indexes > > Mick. IOW. > I presume DesceasedOnline have not covered that area yet. They include cremations for areas they cover or at least they do for my old home town. https://www.deceasedonline.com/

>"singhals" wrote in message >news:mailman.4.1376492556.6546.genbrit@rootsweb.com... >Last week, a patron at my friendly local Family History Center was >spreading the word that he'd heard that "the PCCs will be offered on a >subscription plan." He named a "UK Archivist and Digital Documents >Manager" as his source. >I /assume/ he's talking about the PCC Wills, but why TNA would give up the >steady income of people paying on-spec for each one they want to see for a >subscription eludes me. >Anyway, has anyone else heard this scheme and what can you tell us about >it? >Thanks! >Cheryl in the USA Could it be that they are going to be available on Origins.net who already have a number of pre-1858 databases on their website. http://www.origins.net/nwiwelcome.aspx Andy

Hi all, Are there any cremation name and date indexes available for the Isle of Wight or the UK? I have goggled and looked at genealogy sites but can only find burial indexes Mick. IOW.

polygonum <rmoudndgers@vrod.co.uk> wrote: > On 14/08/2013 10:19, eve@varneys.org.uk wrote: > > 84. > >>>>> > >>> Assuming the most common change of name upon marriage, this would occur > >>> if a man marries his deceased brother's widow. > >> > >> Marriage to deceased brother's widow wasn't actually legal in 1921 (whereas > >> marriage to deceased wife's sister had been since 1908). However, there > >> was a lot of it about, and if the authorities didn't spot it, who cared? > > If the first husband was a cousin, no problem. > > > Was it legal when the future Henry VIII married Catherine of Aragon? > > For various reasons what was going through my mind was the duty to do so > that appears to exist in Judaism, rather than the legality. Going back to cousins, what the rank and file did I've no idea, but I believe that at the time of the complex dynasties of the Yorks and Lancastrians it was necessary to get a Papal Dispensation for cousins to marry. This came up in the recent series The White Queen and its companion documentary. However, there is an interesting article on the subject at <en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage#Europe>. John. -- Please reply to john at yclept dot wanadoo dot co dot uk.

On 14/08/2013 19:51, polygonum wrote: > On 14/08/2013 10:19, eve@varneys.org.uk wrote: >> 84. >>>>>> >>>> Assuming the most common change of name upon marriage, this would occur >>>> if a man marries his deceased brother's widow. >>> >>> Marriage to deceased brother's widow wasn't actually legal in 1921 >>> (whereas >>> marriage to deceased wife's sister had been since 1908). However, there >>> was a lot of it about, and if the authorities didn't spot it, who cared? >> If the first husband was a cousin, no problem. >>>> >>> EVE >>>> >>> >> >> Author of The McLaughlin Guides for Family Historians >> Secretary, Bucks Genealogical Society >> > Was it legal when the future Henry VIII married Catherine of Aragon? The problem with Henry VIII's marriage to Katharine of Aragaon was that she had previously been married to Henry's brother.

On 14/08/2013 19:51, polygonum wrote: > On 14/08/2013 10:19, eve@varneys.org.uk wrote: >> 84. >>>>>> >>>> Assuming the most common change of name upon marriage, this would occur >>>> if a man marries his deceased brother's widow. >>> >>> Marriage to deceased brother's widow wasn't actually legal in 1921 >>> (whereas >>> marriage to deceased wife's sister had been since 1908). However, there >>> was a lot of it about, and if the authorities didn't spot it, who cared? >> If the first husband was a cousin, no problem. >>>> >>> EVE >>>> >>> >> >> Author of The McLaughlin Guides for Family Historians >> Secretary, Bucks Genealogical Society >> > Was it legal when the future Henry VIII married Catherine of Aragon? He certainly argued that it wasn't when it came to wanting an annulment. -- Graeme Wall This account not read, substitute trains for rail. Railway Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail>

Tickettyboo wrote: > If there is anyone who has had the stamina to read all this and has a bit of stamina left over to give it some > thought and pass comment/put forward suggestions I would 'really' appreciate it. You could try getting this birth certificate - there are only two Fredericks registered in Liverpool between 1871 and 1875 Births Jun 1872 Wilson Frederick Liverpool 8b 16 -- Anne Chambers South Australia anne dot chambers at bigpond dot com

On 14/08/2013 10:19, eve@varneys.org.uk wrote: > 84. >>>>> >>> Assuming the most common change of name upon marriage, this would occur >>> if a man marries his deceased brother's widow. >> >> Marriage to deceased brother's widow wasn't actually legal in 1921 (whereas >> marriage to deceased wife's sister had been since 1908). However, there >> was a lot of it about, and if the authorities didn't spot it, who cared? > If the first husband was a cousin, no problem. >>> >> EVE >>> >> > > Author of The McLaughlin Guides for Family Historians > Secretary, Bucks Genealogical Society > Was it legal when the future Henry VIII married Catherine of Aragon? For various reasons what was going through my mind was the duty to do so that appears to exist in Judaism, rather than the legality. -- Rod