Don Kirkman wrote in reply to me: > Much of my colonial record searching has been in Maryland, and when > there is a mark it nearly always seems to be an "x", though I did see > one this morning that looked as though some other mark had been > covered with a heavier "x", but I couldn't distinguish what the > underlying mark[s] might have been. This was from about 1775. I suspect that would also be the case in Cumberland (England) at that time. I don't research that late, however, to make a judgement. My gut feeling is that the use of elaborate marks came when people were vaguely between literacy and non-literacy in the seventeenth century. By the next century, you either could sign or you couldn't - and, if the latter, you were probably more willing to be told to sign with an 'x'. I wonder if some of the non-x marks could come from literate people who simply were unable physically to manage a whole signature - but had the pride to do an initial letter? Chris
Nope, I have a James Bell (linen weaver), married to Catherine Fernie and having a daughter, Susan, in 1816. Sorry! Adrian From: Adrian Gray <grayadrian3@gmail.com> > To: genbrit@rootsweb.com > Cc: > Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2013 09:53:47 +0100 > Subject: Re: BELL - John Bell and Amelia Nichol, m 28/7/1835, County Fife, > Cupar, Scotland > I have one or two Bells in this area - If you don't hear from me in the > next few days please remind me and I'll check! > > Adrian > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Lesley Robertson" <l.a.robertson@tnw.tudelft.nl> > To: genbrit@rootsweb.com > Cc: > Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 14:15:12 +0200 > Subject: Re: BELL - John Bell and Amelia Nichol, m 28/7/1835, County Fife, > Cupar, Scotland > wrote in message news:c00cecba-11bc-4805-a3c8-** > 3e73550088f2@googlegroups.com.**.. > > > > > Hi: > I'm not sure that this will help but I'm trying to find information about a > John Bell of Cupar, Fife at this time who was a watchmaker -- do you know > if your John was a watchmaker? > > paul >
Don Kirkman wrote: > On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 11:52:28 +0100 (BST), Chris Dickinson > <chris@dickinson.uk.net> wrote: > >> Cheryl wrote: >> >>> On the West coast of the pond, back in the 18th and 19th >>> centuries, people's "marks" are frequently registered in a >>> deed book where they live. >> >>> Is that true on the East Coast of the pond? IOW -- I have a >>> signature mark of a man in Maryland in the 1750s; I'd like >>> to confirm/refute that he's the same person as a man of the >>> same name in England earlier for whom I can find no >>> signature. Is there some way to find the "mark" of the 2nd man? >> >> >> >> I'm happy to be corrected, but I would think that nineteenth-century marks were largely 'x'. >> >> However, early marks (at least in the area that I study) were highly individual in earlier centuries - often the initial letter of forename or surname, and sometimes quite elaborate. I'm not aware of any book that lists such marks, but I have wondered on this list before whether individuals used marks based on the smit marks on their farms. The latter are recorded after 1817 - and I imagine could go back centuries. >> >> http://www.geog.port.ac.uk/webmap/thelakes/html/topics/smitfram.htm >> >> I wasn't aware that books of marks were kept across the Pond. That's very intriguing - and could be a key to some new gateways. Maryland especially - as many Cumbrians settled there, and Cumbrians certainly used distinctive marks. > > Much of my colonial record searching has been in Maryland, and when > there is a mark it nearly always seems to be an "x", though I did see > one this morning that looked as though some other mark had been > covered with a heavier "x", but I couldn't distinguish what the > underlying mark[s] might have been. This was from about 1775. I just saw another: 1701, Maryland, Baltimore county, deed: the "mark" was a German W. The man's given name was William, and used the same style W. Cheryl
On Mon, 16 Sep 2013 09:11:44 -0400, Keith Nuttle <Keith_Nuttle@sbcglobal.net> wrote: >On 9/16/2013 5:31 AM, cecilia wrote: >> Charles Ellson wrote: >> [...] >>>>> In Scottish records, it's usually just a >>>>> cross and the signature of a witness >>>>> to say that A had made that mark. >>>>> Lesley Robertson >>>> >>>> That's what I've seen in American >>>> colonial and early federal records >>>> as well--mostly wills and related matters. >>>> Some also have a >>>> hand-drawn rosette pattern >>>> labeled "seal" or "sealed." >>>> >>> IME (RHS pond) seals only seem >>> to feature with nobility and corporate >>> bodies with others either signing >>> or else making a mark with the >>> required number of witnesses' signatures. >> >> Sealing (if occuring) can go with either signing or making a mark. >> >> From transcription of probate copy of a will proved at the >> Archdeaconry Court of Ely >> >> "....In Witness whereof I have hereuntoset my hand and Seal the Third >> Day of November One Thousand Seven Hundred and Fifty Six >> Charles Bottomley [loco sigilli] >> Signed Sealed Published and Declared by the said Testator ...." >> > >I do not know about the UK, but in America it is quite common to see a >hand drawn seal. > Seals aren't necessarily the traditional blob of wax, they can be impressed (e.g. official copies of wills in England and Wales) or printed (e.g. copies of BMD registrations in England and Wales) although I suspect drawing your own probably won't count now. >I always assumed that the original document was >transcribed into the Probate court records and the hand drawn seal was >used to represent the actual seal on the original document > In the case of what are obvious copies you are probably correct.
On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 11:52:28 +0100 (BST), Chris Dickinson <chris@dickinson.uk.net> wrote: >Cheryl wrote: > >> On the West coast of the pond, back in the 18th and 19th >> centuries, people's "marks" are frequently registered in a >> deed book where they live. > >> Is that true on the East Coast of the pond? IOW -- I have a >> signature mark of a man in Maryland in the 1750s; I'd like >> to confirm/refute that he's the same person as a man of the >> same name in England earlier for whom I can find no >> signature. Is there some way to find the "mark" of the 2nd man? > > > >I'm happy to be corrected, but I would think that nineteenth-century marks were largely 'x'. > >However, early marks (at least in the area that I study) were highly individual in earlier centuries - often the initial letter of forename or surname, and sometimes quite elaborate. I'm not aware of any book that lists such marks, but I have wondered on this list before whether individuals used marks based on the smit marks on their farms. The latter are recorded after 1817 - and I imagine could go back centuries. > >http://www.geog.port.ac.uk/webmap/thelakes/html/topics/smitfram.htm > >I wasn't aware that books of marks were kept across the Pond. That's very intriguing - and could be a key to some new gateways. Maryland especially - as many Cumbrians settled there, and Cumbrians certainly used distinctive marks. Much of my colonial record searching has been in Maryland, and when there is a mark it nearly always seems to be an "x", though I did see one this morning that looked as though some other mark had been covered with a heavier "x", but I couldn't distinguish what the underlying mark[s] might have been. This was from about 1775. -- Don donsgenes@charter.net
On Mon, 16 Sep 2013 09:11:44 -0400, Keith Nuttle <Keith_Nuttle@sbcglobal.net> wrote: >On 9/16/2013 5:31 AM, cecilia wrote: >> Charles Ellson wrote: >> [...] >>>>> In Scottish records, it's usually just a >>>>> cross and the signature of a witness >>>>> to say that A had made that mark. >>>>> Lesley Robertson >>>> >>>> That's what I've seen in American >>>> colonial and early federal records >>>> as well--mostly wills and related matters. >>>> Some also have a >>>> hand-drawn rosette pattern >>>> labeled "seal" or "sealed." >>>> >>> IME (RHS pond) seals only seem >>> to feature with nobility and corporate >>> bodies with others either signing >>> or else making a mark with the >>> required number of witnesses' signatures. >> >> Sealing (if occuring) can go with either signing or making a mark. >> >> From transcription of probate copy of a will proved at the >> Archdeaconry Court of Ely >> >> "....In Witness whereof I have hereuntoset my hand and Seal the Third >> Day of November One Thousand Seven Hundred and Fifty Six >> Charles Bottomley [loco sigilli] >> Signed Sealed Published and Declared by the said Testator ...." >> > >I do not know about the UK, but in America it is quite common to see a >hand drawn seal. I always assumed that the original document was >transcribed into the Probate court records and the hand drawn seal was >used to represent the actual seal on the original document That could be so, but multiple hand written copies of wills and probate matters exist, in Maryland one "original" copy to the local county court and one to the Prerogative* [central] Court. I have two handwritten copies of one such will--they're verbally identical but with very different handwriting and placement on the page. Both have hand drawn seals, which also differ. One was kept in Talbot County, the other went to the Prerogative Court and ended up in the State Archives. * Colonial court systems varied widely -- Don donsgenes@charter.net
I have one or two Bells in this area - If you don't hear from me in the next few days please remind me and I'll check! Adrian ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Lesley Robertson" <l.a.robertson@tnw.tudelft.nl> To: genbrit@rootsweb.com Cc: Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 14:15:12 +0200 Subject: Re: BELL - John Bell and Amelia Nichol, m 28/7/1835, County Fife, Cupar, Scotland wrote in message news:c00cecba-11bc-4805-a3c8-** 3e73550088f2@googlegroups.com.**.. > Hi: I'm not sure that this will help but I'm trying to find information about a John Bell of Cupar, Fife at this time who was a watchmaker -- do you know if your John was a watchmaker? paul
Charles Ellson wrote: [...] >>>In Scottish records, it's usually just a >>>cross and the signature of a witness >>> to say that A had made that mark. >>>Lesley Robertson >> >>That's what I've seen in American >> colonial and early federal records >>as well--mostly wills and related matters. >> Some also have a >> hand-drawn rosette pattern >> labeled "seal" or "sealed." >> >IME (RHS pond) seals only seem >to feature with nobility and corporate >bodies with others either signing >or else making a mark with the >required number of witnesses' signatures. Sealing (if occuring) can go with either signing or making a mark. >From transcription of probate copy of a will proved at the Archdeaconry Court of Ely "....In Witness whereof I have hereuntoset my hand and Seal the Third Day of November One Thousand Seven Hundred and Fifty Six Charles Bottomley [loco sigilli] Signed Sealed Published and Declared by the said Testator ...."
On 9/16/2013 5:31 AM, cecilia wrote: > Charles Ellson wrote: > [...] >>>> In Scottish records, it's usually just a >>>> cross and the signature of a witness >>>> to say that A had made that mark. >>>> Lesley Robertson >>> >>> That's what I've seen in American >>> colonial and early federal records >>> as well--mostly wills and related matters. >>> Some also have a >>> hand-drawn rosette pattern >>> labeled "seal" or "sealed." >>> >> IME (RHS pond) seals only seem >> to feature with nobility and corporate >> bodies with others either signing >> or else making a mark with the >> required number of witnesses' signatures. > > Sealing (if occuring) can go with either signing or making a mark. > > From transcription of probate copy of a will proved at the > Archdeaconry Court of Ely > > "....In Witness whereof I have hereuntoset my hand and Seal the Third > Day of November One Thousand Seven Hundred and Fifty Six > Charles Bottomley [loco sigilli] > Signed Sealed Published and Declared by the said Testator ...." > I do not know about the UK, but in America it is quite common to see a hand drawn seal. I always assumed that the original document was transcribed into the Probate court records and the hand drawn seal was used to represent the actual seal on the original document
Many thanks for all who answered, it was a fantastic help and has given me something to follow up. Susie Coleman
On 15/09/2013 17:52, ed.gill.spiers@gmail.com wrote: > On Tuesday, December 9, 2003 12:50:05 AM UTC, Harry Dodsworth wrote: >> The navigation from Tewkesbury to Evesham was restored from about >> 1950 by Douglas Barwell and the Lower Avon Navigation Trust. >> The Upper Avon, from Evesham to Stratford was restored in 1974 by >> the Upper Avon group. >> >> My parents were lock keepers at Tewkesbury from 1968 - 1972. >> I have pictures of the motor barge Pisgah which was the last commercial >> vessel and carried grain to the feed mill in Pershore. >> >> -- >> Harry Dodsworth Ottawa Ontario Canada af877@freenet.carleton.ca >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > My husband Edward Spiers Grandfather George Partridge was the owner of 'Pisgah' the barge which was used to ship corn and we would be delighted to see pictures that you have of this wonderful barge. We believe after 1972 it was reconstructed into a leisure barge, but we have not details of what happened to her. > > Thank you, Gill Spiers > You are replying to a post from 2003. You could try emailing Harry direct. -- Graeme Wall This account not read, substitute trains for rail. Railway Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail>
Many thanks, Anne. that sounds like a useful tool. Cheers, Alwynne "Anne Chambers" wrote in message news:b9l5frF63nrU1@mid.individual.net... Alwynne wrote: > Disease of the brain is given as the cause of death on a death certificate > of 1849. I know that this can mean > several things, including epilepsy, meningitis or mental illness. > Does anyone if there was a common meaning around 1849 in London? > Many thanks, > Alwynne Google has this complete ebook Clinical Lectures on Paralysis Disease of the Brain and Other Affections of the Nervous System Robert Bentley Todd J. Churchill, 1854 - 462 pages http://books.google.com.au/books?id=N9UUAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false You might find something there. -- Anne Chambers South Australia anne dot chambers at bigpond dot com
Alwynne wrote: > Disease of the brain is given as the cause of death on a death certificate of 1849. I know that this can mean > several things, including epilepsy, meningitis or mental illness. > Does anyone if there was a common meaning around 1849 in London? > Many thanks, > Alwynne Google has this complete ebook Clinical Lectures on Paralysis Disease of the Brain and Other Affections of the Nervous System Robert Bentley Todd J. Churchill, 1854 - 462 pages http://books.google.com.au/books?id=N9UUAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false You might find something there. -- Anne Chambers South Australia anne dot chambers at bigpond dot com
Disease of the brain is given as the cause of death on a death certificate of 1849. I know that this can mean several things, including epilepsy, meningitis or mental illness. Does anyone if there was a common meaning around 1849 in London? Many thanks, Alwynne
Charles Ellson wrote: > IME (RHS pond) seals only seem to feature with nobility and corporate > bodies with others either signing or else making a mark with the > required number of witnesses' signatures. I don't think that is the case for early wills in Cumberland. Many have seals. I know of some wills where the seal was definitely that of the attorney supervising the will, rather than of the parties involved. Chris
Cheryl wrote: > On the West coast of the pond, back in the 18th and 19th > centuries, people's "marks" are frequently registered in a > deed book where they live. > Is that true on the East Coast of the pond? IOW -- I have a > signature mark of a man in Maryland in the 1750s; I'd like > to confirm/refute that he's the same person as a man of the > same name in England earlier for whom I can find no > signature. Is there some way to find the "mark" of the 2nd man? I'm happy to be corrected, but I would think that nineteenth-century marks were largely 'x'. However, early marks (at least in the area that I study) were highly individual in earlier centuries - often the initial letter of forename or surname, and sometimes quite elaborate. I'm not aware of any book that lists such marks, but I have wondered on this list before whether individuals used marks based on the smit marks on their farms. The latter are recorded after 1817 - and I imagine could go back centuries. http://www.geog.port.ac.uk/webmap/thelakes/html/topics/smitfram.htm I wasn't aware that books of marks were kept across the Pond. That's very intriguing - and could be a key to some new gateways. Maryland especially - as many Cumbrians settled there, and Cumbrians certainly used distinctive marks. Chris
My 3xgrandfather died of the same.....turned out he lost his mind due to syphilis which was very common in those times. mary lou -----Original Message----- From: Alwynne <alwynnem@melbpc.org.au> To: genbrit <genbrit@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sun, Sep 15, 2013 2:37 am Subject: Disease of the Brain Disease of the brain is given as the cause of death on a death certificate of 1849. I know that this can mean several things, including epilepsy, meningitis or mental illness. Does anyone if there was a common meaning around 1849 in London? Many thanks, Alwynne ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GENBRIT-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
On Tuesday, December 9, 2003 12:50:05 AM UTC, Harry Dodsworth wrote: > The navigation from Tewkesbury to Evesham was restored from about > 1950 by Douglas Barwell and the Lower Avon Navigation Trust. > The Upper Avon, from Evesham to Stratford was restored in 1974 by > the Upper Avon group. > > My parents were lock keepers at Tewkesbury from 1968 - 1972. > I have pictures of the motor barge Pisgah which was the last commercial > vessel and carried grain to the feed mill in Pershore. > > -- > Harry Dodsworth Ottawa Ontario Canada af877@freenet.carleton.ca > ---------------------------------------------------------------- My husband Edward Spiers Grandfather George Partridge was the owner of 'Pisgah' the barge which was used to ship corn and we would be delighted to see pictures that you have of this wonderful barge. We believe after 1972 it was reconstructed into a leisure barge, but we have not details of what happened to her. Thank you, Gill Spiers
On Sat, 14 Sep 2013 12:15:05 -0700, Don Kirkman <donsgenes@charter.net> wrote: >On Sat, 14 Sep 2013 14:09:17 +0200, "Lesley Robertson" ><l.a.robertson@tnw.tudelft.nl> wrote: > >>"singhals" wrote in message >>news:mailman.2.1379107186.23963.genbrit@rootsweb.com... >> >>On the West coast of the pond, back in the 18th and 19th >>centuries, people's "marks" are frequently registered in a >>deed book where they live. >> >>Is that true on the East Coast of the pond? IOW -- I have a >>signature mark of a man in Maryland in the 1750s; I'd like >>to confirm/refute that he's the same person as a man of the >>same name in England earlier for whom I can find no >>signature. Is there some way to find the "mark" of the 2nd man? >> >>Thanks. >> >>Cheryl >> >>I've never seen it, Cheryl. In Scottish records, it's usually just a >>cross and the signature of a witness to say that A had made that mark. >>Lesley Robertson > >That's what I've seen in American colonial and early federal records >as well--mostly wills and related matters. Some also have a >hand-drawn rosette pattern labeled "seal" or "sealed." > IME (RHS pond) seals only seem to feature with nobility and corporate bodies with others either signing or else making a mark with the required number of witnesses' signatures.
One Eyed Phil wrote: > Morning All > My Gt Grandfather was Henry Keyworth, born C1851 in Caistor, Lincs > Most family trees online show him as the son of Francis & Elizabeth (nee Gorbutt), in line with the 1861 census. > However, the 1851 census has him listed as the grandson of Francis & Elizabeth.(4 months old) To me this is > more compelling > > A birth registered in Caistor Oct 1850 for a Henry Keyworth lists a Fanny Keyworth as mother > There is no record of Francis & Elizabeth having a daughter by that name (or Frances) The oldest daughter Was > Mary b 1831 > I have been assuming that Mary (maybe a second name as Frances) gave birth to Henry. She is listed as a > servant in a nearby house on census nighwhich would explain why Henry was with grandparents. Then I concluded > she left him with the Grandparents who raised him as their own > Familysearch has his baptism Name Henry Keyworth Christening Date 13 Jan 1851 Christening Place Caistor, Lincs, England Father's Name Mother's Name Fanny Keyworth Indexing Project (Batch) NumberC02607-2 System OriginEngland-VR GS Film number1450424 Reference ID2:31BQJLP which indicates that someone calling herself Fanny Keyworth was at the church with the baby. There is also this baptism Mary Frances Keyworth England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975 christening: 29 August 1858 Caistor, Lincs, England residence: Caistor, Lincolnshire, England mother: Charlotte Keyworth who would be the Mary F Keyworth, granddaughter in the 1861 census At her marriage she indicated that her father was George Robinson Mary Frances Keyworth England Marriages, 1538–1973 birth: 1859 marriage: 1879 Caistor, Lincs, England father:George Robinson spouse:Joseph Mellor other:John Mellor Who did Henry say his father was when he married ? Charlotte (still living at home) was old enough to have had a child in 1850 and there is a Fanny Keyworth (no Charlotte to be found), house servant in Caistor in 1861. Perhaps Fanny/Charlotte are the same person. -- Anne Chambers South Australia anne dot chambers at bigpond dot com