Naomi wrote: > I have a brick wall - just CANNOT find this family in the 1851 census... James BUTCHER, a Shoe Maker, born > c1816-1823 Bewdley, Ribbesford, Worcs (son of James BUTCHER, Waterman), married Eliza MILWARD (also MILLARD > / MILLWARD), daughter of John (a Waterman) and Elizabeth. She was born c1816, baptised 1817 in Bewdley, > Ribbesford, Worcs. Marriage in Ribbesford Church, 19/8/1841. They are together, although as yet unmarried > in the 1841 census, living with Elizabeth's parents in 1841. (HO107/1193/3/27/14) > > In 1845, they had a daughter Eliza/Elizabeth, who died, I think, the same year: Birth 1845 BUTCHER Eliza > Kidderminster 18 370 Baptism 9/3/1845 Ribbesford, Worcs Death Dec 1845 BUTCHER Eliza Kidderminster 18 239 > > The next child I know of is Henry John (known as Harry, registered / baptised as John), born c1853: Dec > 1852 BUTCHER John Kidderminster 6c 210 or Sep 1853 Butcher John Kidderminster 6c 221 > > In the 1861 census, they are living at Wolverhampton St, Willenhall, Wolverhampton, Staffs James is a > Cordwainer & Letter Carrier. (RG9/2000/15/21) > > In 1871, Wolverhampton (RG10/2943/60/13) > > I just cannot find them in 1861. There is a John and Elizabeth MILWARD living in Bewdley, with an unmarried > daughter Eliza.(HO107/2039/230/23) She seems to have a son called George. But this John MILWARD is a > Fishmonger (although not so far from a Waterman?). But James is nowhere to be found! My hunch is this isn't > the right Eliza, but I have nothing to base that on! > > Any help gladly welcomed! > > Naomi > I think he may have been enumerated as BAUCHER High Street, Chipping Camden, Gloucesteshire Class: HO107; Piece: 2076; Folio: 119; Page: 15; GSU roll: 87345. Edward Balton 39 Cordwainer Elizabeth Balton 30 Caroline Balton 9 John Wills 33 mar assistant James Baucher 33 m? assistant b Bewdley William Pekher 22 U assistant -- Anne Chambers South Australia anne dot chambers at bigpond dot com
Anne, that is fabulous! That is him, I'm sure. It makes sense of Eliza being with her parents. I think I may have found (with cyberspace's help!) A baptism for baby George who is with Eliza in Bewdley, so it all fits! Thank you so much! Naomi
On Tue, 17 Sep 2013 14:52:09 +0100, roy.stockdill@btinternet.com wrote: >From: "Piercefield" <Piercefield@btinternet.com> > >> Roy Stockdill wrote, Tuesday, September 17, 2013 1:01 PM >> >> > Why did he become so famous >> > He won the Victoria Cross in the Zulu War >> >> That's one reason - everyone loved a hero. >> >> > Buller was held to blame for some serious defeats >> >> Indeed - but mostly in hindsight. >> >> > setbacks in his attempts to relieve Ladysmith >> > at the battles of Spion Kop and Vaal Krantz. >> >> ... but *at the time* I think he was respected by and popular amongst >> his troops. >> >> And at home, too. The Boer War had a great deal of support at home, >> and the generals were all household names. It was the biggest army >> that Britain had ever sent overseas. >> >> The public odium came later. >> >> You say, >> > "building up to large numbers in >> > 1900-1910, then falling gradually away." >> >> I'm surprised it fell gradually. But maybe it was the children of his >> soldiers showing their respect. >> >> Both my grandfather's were in the army there then - one a regular, the >> other in the Imperial Yeomanry (Territorials). > > >Thanks for those observations. In fact, Redvers as a forename was scarcely >influenced by Sir Redvers Buller winning the VC in 1879. There were few >instances before 1899 but the explosion in popularity came in the final quarter >of that year when Sir Redvers would have been not long arrived in South Africa. > >I expect at the time he was as well known as Baden Powell. I also knew a Buller Fenwick. -- Steve Hayes Web: http://hayesgreene.wordpress.com/ http://hayesgreene.blogspot.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/afgen/
On Tue, 17 Sep 2013 13:01:31 +0100, roy.stockdill@btinternet.com wrote: >I found this unusual tale of a man who became famous and had lots of children >named after him, largely for failing and being sacked from the army, so >interesting I felt I had to share it! Anyone know of a similar one? I knew a Redvers Rouse, and because he was the right age, assumed that he had been named after Sir Redvers Buller. Another, who married into my family, was named Harry Winston Churchill Bradbury, and called Win. He was born in Ladysmith about October 1899, which was the beginning of the Anglo-Boer War. I presume that he was named after Winston Churchill, who wasn't particularly famous at the time, just an embedded journalist who happened to be around. I also knew a Hitler Mabaso, who was about my age, and presumably got his name because Hitler happened to be in the news at the time. Perhaps as a reaction against his name, in later life he was a card carrying Liberal. -- Steve Hayes Web: http://hayesgreene.wordpress.com/ http://hayesgreene.blogspot.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/afgen/
On 17/09/2013 17:37, Steve Hayes wrote: > I knew a Redvers Rouse, and because he was the right age, assumed that he had > been named after Sir Redvers Buller. I remember Redvers Kyle on ITV in the 1950s and 1960s and according to Wikipedia he was born in South Africa and named after Redvers Buller. -- Jenny M Benson
[posted and mailed] Evertjan. wrote on 17 sep 2013 in soc.genealogy.britain: > "In 1972 the Pisgah, the last commercial traffic on the River Avon > ceased when Partridge's mill at Pershore was burnt down." > <http://www.reedboats.co.uk/canals/rav/ravh.html> Then the Pisgah was converted and went to France, methinks: "THE FRENCH CONNECTION - Michael Handford [Dec 1979] [..] The boat we hired was a well converted nine berth ex-River Avon grain barge, the 'Pisgah' which had a large and comfortable saloon, dining room and kitchen, four double and one single berths, shower and toilet as well as acres of deck space for sunbathing. At the height of the season it cost us less than £40 a person each week and that included the services of a friendly skipper with a weakness for bacon and eggs which he fried up in his own self contained cabin separate from the main accommodation." <http://www.basingstoke-canal.org.uk/bcn/bcnews088.htm> photo dating: "Grain barge 'Pisgah'. c1951- 87" <http://www.worcestershire.gov.uk/cms/pdf/RecordsIndex-Agriculture.pdf> "Dad had a brother Bill Butt who was captain of the Pisgah, a grain barge." <http://www.cotswoldcanalsheritage.org.uk/page_id__304_path__0p40p.aspx> William (Bill) Butt <http://www.cotswoldcanalsheritage.org.uk/page_id__327_path__0p2p51p.aspx> -- Evertjan. The Netherlands. (Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)
[posted and mailed] Mike wrote on 17 sep 2013 in soc.genealogy.britain: > My husband Edward Spiers Grandfather George Partridge was the owner of > 'Pisgah' the barge which was used to ship corn and we would be > delighted to see pictures that you have of this wonderful barge. We > believe after 1972 it was reconstructed into a leisure barge, but we > have not details of what happened to her. "The only traffic by World War II was the Pisgah, a 30 ton grain barge running up to Partridge's mill at Pershore as she had done since 1918. They did some work to keep the 4 locks and 1 watergate working, upstream the rest of the navigation became derelict." [...] "In 1972 the Pisgah, the last commercial traffic on the River Avon ceased when Partridge's mill at Pershore was burnt down." <http://www.reedboats.co.uk/canals/rav/ravh.html> "There are also photographs of the grain barge Pisgah, of diving in the locks, and of voluntary working parties." <http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=045-705-215&cid= 4-2-4#4-2-4> "He also sailed in the locally owned Pisgah under skipper Bill Screech for several years" "He also worked on barges later on the motorized versions Pisgah and Deerhurst as engineer" <http://www.gsia.org.uk/canals/projects/s10_lpb_boats.pdf> "The skipper, Bill Screech, shouted to me, Come on lad, we'll miss the first lock at Sharpness." <http://www.severntales.co.uk/chris-witts-at-work.html> -- Evertjan. The Netherlands. (Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)
Keith Nuttle wrote: >[...] in America it is quite common to see a >hand drawn seal. I always assumed that the original document was >transcribed into the Probate court records and the hand drawn seal was >used to represent the actual seal on the original document I once (and idiotically did not note whose it was) saw, while winding through a microfilm copy of PCC wills, a pre-reformation will for a nobleman where the probate clark had copied the intricate tracery that filled the front page of the will.
From: "Piercefield" <Piercefield@btinternet.com> > Roy Stockdill wrote, Tuesday, September 17, 2013 1:01 PM > > > Why did he become so famous > > He won the Victoria Cross in the Zulu War > > That's one reason - everyone loved a hero. > > > Buller was held to blame for some serious defeats > > Indeed - but mostly in hindsight. > > > setbacks in his attempts to relieve Ladysmith > > at the battles of Spion Kop and Vaal Krantz. > > ... but *at the time* I think he was respected by and popular amongst > his troops. > > And at home, too. The Boer War had a great deal of support at home, > and the generals were all household names. It was the biggest army > that Britain had ever sent overseas. > > The public odium came later. > > You say, > > "building up to large numbers in > > 1900-1910, then falling gradually away." > > I'm surprised it fell gradually. But maybe it was the children of his > soldiers showing their respect. > > Both my grandfather's were in the army there then - one a regular, the > other in the Imperial Yeomanry (Territorials). > Thanks for those observations. In fact, Redvers as a forename was scarcely influenced by Sir Redvers Buller winning the VC in 1879. There were few instances before 1899 but the explosion in popularity came in the final quarter of that year when Sir Redvers would have been not long arrived in South Africa. I expect at the time he was as well known as Baden Powell. -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Famous family trees blog: http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/tag/roy-stockdill/ "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE
From: "Steven Gibbs" <stevenng4@sgibbs1.freeserve.co.uk> > <roy.stockdill@btinternet.com> wrote in message > news:mailman.1.1379419969.20938.genbrit@rootsweb.com... > > > > <all snipped> > > The graph at http://greatwarlondon.wordpress.com/2012/04/29/redvers/ > demonstrates the popularity of the name to great effect. > > Steven > Many thanks, Steven. That does indeed demonstrate the sudden rise in popularity of the name - quite graphically, as one might say! (Ouch, terrible pun). -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Famous family trees blog: http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/tag/roy-stockdill/ "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE
Apologies, Lesley - that was the fault of my editing. Not quite sure what I did there... Adrian 2. Re: BELL - John Bell and Amelia Nichol, m 28/7/1835, County > Fife, Cupar, Scotland > Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2013 12:28:37 +0200 > Subject: Re: BELL - John Bell and Amelia Nichol, m 28/7/1835, County Fife, > Cupar, Scotland > > Somehow, the message below has been trimmed to look as though it came from > me, but it didn't. > Lesley Robertson > >
"Tony Proctor" wrote in message news:l197hc$i9n$1@reader01.news.esat.net... <ed.gill.spiers@gmail.com> wrote in message news:eadaaed5-57b1-42fb-b175-a2bdc1f60db0@googlegroups.com... On Tuesday, December 9, 2003 12:50:05 AM UTC, Harry Dodsworth wrote: > The navigation from Tewkesbury to Evesham was restored from about > 1950 by Douglas Barwell and the Lower Avon Navigation Trust. > The Upper Avon, from Evesham to Stratford was restored in 1974 by > the Upper Avon group. > > My parents were lock keepers at Tewkesbury from 1968 - 1972. > I have pictures of the motor barge Pisgah which was the last commercial > vessel and carried grain to the feed mill in Pershore. > > -- > Harry Dodsworth Ottawa Ontario Canada af877@freenet.carleton.ca > ---------------------------------------------------------------- My husband Edward Spiers Grandfather George Partridge was the owner of 'Pisgah' the barge which was used to ship corn and we would be delighted to see pictures that you have of this wonderful barge. We believe after 1972 it was reconstructed into a leisure barge, but we have not details of what happened to her. Thank you, Gill Spiers A search - after removing references to Pisgah-the-place - suggests that it was owned locally in Gloucestershire in 2007 Gill. It mentions Bill Screech as the skipper. http://www.gsia.org.uk/canals/projects/s10_lpb_boats.pdf Tony Proctor Found this on Canalworld forum Pisgah was taken to France in the 70s and became a hotel boat. I seem to recall that this venture was the brainchild of John Liley,former editor of Motor Boat and Yachting and still an occasional contributor to waterway magazines, It may have been renamed? If anyone has contact with John I am sure he would know the answer in any case. Mike
Roy Stockdill wrote, Tuesday, September 17, 2013 1:01 PM > Why did he become so famous > He won the Victoria Cross in the Zulu War That's one reason - everyone loved a hero. > Buller was held to blame for some serious defeats Indeed - but mostly in hindsight. > setbacks in his attempts to relieve Ladysmith > at the battles of Spion Kop and Vaal Krantz. ... but *at the time* I think he was respected by and popular amongst his troops. And at home, too. The Boer War had a great deal of support at home, and the generals were all household names. It was the biggest army that Britain had ever sent overseas. The public odium came later. You say, > "building up to large numbers in > 1900-1910, then falling gradually away." I'm surprised it fell gradually. But maybe it was the children of his soldiers showing their respect. Both my grandfather's were in the army there then - one a regular, the other in the Imperial Yeomanry (Territorials).
<roy.stockdill@btinternet.com> wrote in message news:mailman.1.1379419969.20938.genbrit@rootsweb.com... > > <all snipped> The graph at http://greatwarlondon.wordpress.com/2012/04/29/redvers/ demonstrates the popularity of the name to great effect. Steven
I am currently doing some research which involves a gentleman with the first name of REDVERS. This is a name I've not personally encountered before, though I immediately assumed (correctly) that it was a surname used as a Christian name. Then something really weird occurred! Allowing for possible misspellings and variants, I could find only ONE instance of the forename in the 1841 census, then varying numbers in single figures up to 1891 which had nine. Suddenly in the 1901 census there was an incredible number of 1,336 occurrences of the name, the vast majority of them under the age of 10 and with many, many pages of children with the first name of Redvers aged one or nought. An examination of FreeBMD produced a similar phenomenon - just a few isolated examples before 1899, then an extraordinary explosion of births with Redvers as the first name in the last quarter of 1899, building up to large numbers in 1900-1910, then falling gradually away. Clearly, there must have been somebody famous who was responsible for this extraordinary surge in the popularity in what up to then had been a rare forename. In fact, I don't think I've seen a similar example apart from Florence Nightingale and possibly Horatio Nelson! It didn't take me long to discover with Google that the man responsible could only have been General Sir Redvers Henry Buller VC GCB GCMG, who was born at Crediton, Devon, in 1839 and died in 1908. I am confessing my ignorance here in not being previously very familiar with the said gentleman, though military historians will undoubtedly hold me to task!!! As it turned out, General Sir Redvers Buller (pronounced Reevers, according to Wikipedia) was the one who represented the only entrant in the 1841 census. Why did he become so famous that literally scores of children were named after him from 1899 onwards? Just count the number of children named Redvers at FreeBMD in late 1899-1902! He won the Victoria Cross in the Zulu War in South Africa for outstanding gallantry in 1879 but that doesn't seem to have been the principal reason for his fame. He was made commander of the Natal Field Force at the outset of the Second Boer War, arriving in South Africa in October 1899. Buller was held to blame for some serious defeats of the British troops. Wikipedia says: "Defeats at the Battle of Magersfontein and Battle of Stormberg also involved forces under his command. Because of concerns about his performance and negative reports from the field he was replaced in January 1900 as overall commander in South Africa by Lord Roberts. Defeats and questionable ability as commander soon earned him the nickname "Reverse Buller" among troops. He remained as second-in-command and suffered two more setbacks in his attempts to relieve Ladysmith at the battles of Spion Kop and Vaal Krantz. On his fourth attempt, Buller was victorious in the Battle of the Tugela Heights, lifting the siege on 28 February 1900. Later he was successful in flanking Boer armies out of positions at Biggarsberg, Laing's Nek and Lydenburg. It was Buller's veterans who won the Battle of Bergendal in the war's last set-piece action." When he returned to England Sir Redvers was made the scapegoat for the British setbacks in the Boer War and after making a controversial speech attacking his critics he refused to resign from the army but was dismissed on half pay, being refused a court martial. Seemingly, public sympathy was on Buller's side, especially in his homeland of the West Country, and a statue of him on his horse was erected in Exeter in 1905 while he was still living. I found this unusual tale of a man who became famous and had lots of children named after him, largely for failing and being sacked from the army, so interesting I felt I had to share it! Anyone know of a similar one? -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Famous family trees blog: http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/tag/roy-stockdill/ "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE
Somehow, the message below has been trimmed to look as though it came from me, but it didn't. Lesley Robertson "Adrian Gray" wrote in message news:mailman.6.1379362922.10969.genbrit@rootsweb.com... I have one or two Bells in this area - If you don't hear from me in the next few days please remind me and I'll check! Adrian ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Lesley Robertson" <l.a.robertson@tnw.tudelft.nl> To: genbrit@rootsweb.com Cc: Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 14:15:12 +0200 Subject: Re: BELL - John Bell and Amelia Nichol, m 28/7/1835, County Fife, Cupar, Scotland wrote in message news:c00cecba-11bc-4805-a3c8-** 3e73550088f2@googlegroups.com.**.. > Hi: I'm not sure that this will help but I'm trying to find information about a John Bell of Cupar, Fife at this time who was a watchmaker -- do you know if your John was a watchmaker? paul
cecilia wrote: > Keith Nuttle wrote: > >> [...] in America it is quite common to see a >> hand drawn seal. I always assumed that the original document was >> transcribed into the Probate court records and the hand drawn seal was >> used to represent the actual seal on the original document > > I once (and idiotically did not note whose it was) saw, while winding > through a microfilm copy of PCC wills, a pre-reformation will for a > nobleman where the probate clark had copied the intricate tracery that > filled the front page of the will. And now that they're digitized, some poor fool somewhere is poring over that page, trying to "read it through all the bleed-through". Color me mean, but that thought sort of brightened my day ... ;) Cheryl
<ed.gill.spiers@gmail.com> wrote in message news:eadaaed5-57b1-42fb-b175-a2bdc1f60db0@googlegroups.com... On Tuesday, December 9, 2003 12:50:05 AM UTC, Harry Dodsworth wrote: > The navigation from Tewkesbury to Evesham was restored from about > 1950 by Douglas Barwell and the Lower Avon Navigation Trust. > The Upper Avon, from Evesham to Stratford was restored in 1974 by > the Upper Avon group. > > My parents were lock keepers at Tewkesbury from 1968 - 1972. > I have pictures of the motor barge Pisgah which was the last commercial > vessel and carried grain to the feed mill in Pershore. > > -- > Harry Dodsworth Ottawa Ontario Canada af877@freenet.carleton.ca > ---------------------------------------------------------------- My husband Edward Spiers Grandfather George Partridge was the owner of 'Pisgah' the barge which was used to ship corn and we would be delighted to see pictures that you have of this wonderful barge. We believe after 1972 it was reconstructed into a leisure barge, but we have not details of what happened to her. Thank you, Gill Spiers A search - after removing references to Pisgah-the-place - suggests that it was owned locally in Gloucestershire in 2007 Gill. It mentions Bill Screech as the skipper. http://www.gsia.org.uk/canals/projects/s10_lpb_boats.pdf Tony Proctor
On 9/16/2013 8:36 PM, singhals wrote: > Don Kirkman wrote: >> On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 11:52:28 +0100 (BST), Chris Dickinson >> <chris@dickinson.uk.net> wrote: >> >>> Cheryl wrote: >>> >>>> On the West coast of the pond, back in the 18th and 19th >>>> centuries, people's "marks" are frequently registered in a >>>> deed book where they live. >>> >>>> Is that true on the East Coast of the pond? IOW -- I have a >>>> signature mark of a man in Maryland in the 1750s; I'd like >>>> to confirm/refute that he's the same person as a man of the >>>> same name in England earlier for whom I can find no >>>> signature. Is there some way to find the "mark" of the 2nd man? >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm happy to be corrected, but I would think that nineteenth-century >>> marks were largely 'x'. >>> >>> However, early marks (at least in the area that I study) were highly >>> individual in earlier centuries - often the initial letter of >>> forename or surname, and sometimes quite elaborate. I'm not aware of >>> any book that lists such marks, but I have wondered on this list >>> before whether individuals used marks based on the smit marks on >>> their farms. The latter are recorded after 1817 - and I imagine could >>> go back centuries. >>> >>> http://www.geog.port.ac.uk/webmap/thelakes/html/topics/smitfram.htm >>> >>> I wasn't aware that books of marks were kept across the Pond. That's >>> very intriguing - and could be a key to some new gateways. Maryland >>> especially - as many Cumbrians settled there, and Cumbrians certainly >>> used distinctive marks. >> >> Much of my colonial record searching has been in Maryland, and when >> there is a mark it nearly always seems to be an "x", though I did see >> one this morning that looked as though some other mark had been >> covered with a heavier "x", but I couldn't distinguish what the >> underlying mark[s] might have been. This was from about 1775. > > I just saw another: 1701, Maryland, Baltimore county, deed: the "mark" > was a German W. The man's given name was William, and used the same > style W. > > Cheryl I posted earlier in the thread about the seals in American documents. I think there is a difference in what you are seeing and what I have seen. All of the "Seals" I have seen have been in Court ledger books. These seals have been squiggle circles, hence my interpretation that they were representation on the actual seal on the transcribed document. In these cases I would assume they are represent the seals used by a notary public. From what I have read in later post, the seals are hand drawn seals that represent something that the author of the document thought represented him. Not to be a put down, but an example; like the fancy flowers some young girls use to put on their notes and school work.
I have a brick wall - just CANNOT find this family in the 1851 census... James BUTCHER, a Shoe Maker, born c1816-1823 Bewdley, Ribbesford, Worcs (son of James BUTCHER, Waterman), married Eliza MILWARD (also MILLARD / MILLWARD), daughter of John (a Waterman) and Elizabeth. She was born c1816, baptised 1817 in Bewdley, Ribbesford, Worcs. Marriage in Ribbesford Church, 19/8/1841. They are together, although as yet unmarried in the 1841 census, living with Elizabeth's parents in 1841. (HO107/1193/3/27/14) In 1845, they had a daughter Eliza/Elizabeth, who died, I think, the same year: Birth 1845 BUTCHER Eliza Kidderminster 18 370 Baptism 9/3/1845 Ribbesford, Worcs Death Dec 1845 BUTCHER Eliza Kidderminster 18 239 The next child I know of is Henry John (known as Harry, registered / baptised as John), born c1853: Dec 1852 BUTCHER John Kidderminster 6c 210 or Sep 1853 Butcher John Kidderminster 6c 221 In the 1861 census, they are living at Wolverhampton St, Willenhall, Wolverhampton, Staffs James is a Cordwainer & Letter Carrier. (RG9/2000/15/21) In 1871, Wolverhampton (RG10/2943/60/13) I just cannot find them in 1861. There is a John and Elizabeth MILWARD living in Bewdley, with an unmarried daughter Eliza.(HO107/2039/230/23) She seems to have a son called George. But this John MILWARD is a Fishmonger (although not so far from a Waterman?). But James is nowhere to be found! My hunch is this isn't the right Eliza, but I have nothing to base that on! Any help gladly welcomed! Naomi