On 17/12/2014 14:02, Geoff Pearson wrote: > > "Geoff Pearson" <[email protected]> wrote in message > news:[email protected] >> My partner and I are converting our 2005 civil partnership into a >> marriage next Tuesday - it is an administrative procedure. It means >> our partnership will be in the same registers as current "straight" >> marriages - how much confusion will that cause? > > We did it - first in Leith at 09:20 - so in the first 5 in Scotland. We > were the test bed as the staff in the Registrar's office received their > instructions only 10 minutes before we arrived. Great fun, then media > people waiting outside - video report on Edinburgh Reporter website. Glad to hear it went well. -- Graeme Wall This account not read, substitute trains for rail. Railway Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail>

"Geoff Pearson" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] > My partner and I are converting our 2005 civil partnership into a marriage > next Tuesday - it is an administrative procedure. It means our > partnership will be in the same registers as current "straight" > marriages - how much confusion will that cause? We did it - first in Leith at 09:20 - so in the first 5 in Scotland. We were the test bed as the staff in the Registrar's office received their instructions only 10 minutes before we arrived. Great fun, then media people waiting outside - video report on Edinburgh Reporter website.

We have been approached by two different heir-hunting firms with the news that my wife's first cousin once removed has died intestate, and they are looking for heirs. I don't know if anyone else has experience of such things, but here in South Africa if someone dies intestate the relevant authority, or the heirs or crditors appoint an executor dative (as opposed to an executor testamentary) to handle the estate. What is the equivalent procedure in England? We have not been in touch with her, because we did not know her address, and it's rather sad to only discover where she lived after her death. So we don't know whether she lived in her own house, or was renting a place, or what. But who would be responsible, and who would look after her things? We know she was a civil servant, and don't expect that she would have got rich on a civil service pension, so we are not so much concerned about the monetary value of the estate (which would need to be shared with a lot of other relatives anyway) but rather things like family papers and photographs. In the absence of an executor, who would handle such things? Would a landlord just toss them out to make room for a new tenant? Who would have the keys to her home? -- Steve Hayes Web: http://hayesgreene.wordpress.com/ http://hayesgreene.blogspot.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/afgen/

Steve Hayes wrote on Wed, 17 Dec 2014 at 11:36:57 GMT >We have been approached by two different heir-hunting firms with the news that >my wife's first cousin once removed has died intestate, and they are looking >for heirs. > >I don't know if anyone else has experience of such things, but here in South >Africa if someone dies intestate the relevant authority, or the heirs or >crditors appoint an executor dative (as opposed to an executor testamentary) >to handle the estate. > >What is the equivalent procedure in England? > >We have not been in touch with her, because we did not know her address, and >it's rather sad to only discover where she lived after her death. > >So we don't know whether she lived in her own house, or was renting a place, >or what. > >But who would be responsible, and who would look after her things? > >We know she was a civil servant, and don't expect that she would have got rich >on a civil service pension, so we are not so much concerned about the monetary >value of the estate (which would need to be shared with a lot of other >relatives anyway) but rather things like family papers and photographs. > >In the absence of an executor, who would handle such things? Would a landlord >just toss them out to make room for a new tenant? Who would have the keys to >her home? You could have a browse of <https://www.thegazette.co.uk/wills-and-probate/notice> and <https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/bona-vacantia>. The latter would be involved if there no known relatives who had been granted administration of the estate. -- Iain Archer

On 14/12/2014 21:37, brightside S9 wrote: > On Sun, 14 Dec 2014 16:55:13 +0000, Tickettyboo > <[email protected]> wrote: > >> On 2014-12-14 12:58:43 +0000, brightside S9 said: >> >>> 1871, 1881, 1891, 1901 and 1911 census images show an Esther Lenton >>> married to a John Lenton >>> >>> Ancestry search: Esther Lenton >>> Birth: 1847+/- 1 >>> Birth place: Gosport Hampshire. >>> (all exact) >>> >>> >>> However I cannot find a marriage for them. GRO has one marriage for a >>> Lenton to an Esther dated 1860 - too early >>> 1911 census information states 14 children, 9 still alive. >>> >>> 1871 census shows 1 child Alice Mary, aged 1, born Portsmouth. Alice's >>> birth is registered as LINTON. >>> GRO SEP 1869 Linton Alice Mary Portsea 2b 435 >>> >>> There is also a birth for John Frederick LINTON >>> GRO JUN 1867 Linton John Frederick Portsea 2b 414 >>> and his death >>> GRO JUN 1867 Linton John Frederick 0 Portsea 2b 274 >>> >>> These births indicate a possible marriage before 1867. >>> >>> I can also find two trees in Ancestry with John and Esther and 14 >>> children (list doesn't include John Frederick, so that would make 15 >>> children, but in 1911 aged 75, married for 45 years, memory might be >>> problem). 1 tree gives marriage date as 1866 but the reference is >>> from census. >>> >>> In 1871 census John Lenton's occupation is a Gunner RN[M] [retired]. >>> I have had no luck finding any military record(s) for him. Could his >>> marriage have been noted in military records? >>> >>> Anyone care to try and find this 'marraige'? >> >> Real long shot but the GRO index has a John LENTCH who married an >> Esther LANCE in Q3 1866, Portsea >> If it were me I'd be emailing the local registrar to ask if they'd >> check their register to see if the GRO index has a trancription error. > > > Thanks tickettyboo, GRO has a birth for Esther Lance MAR 1847 > Alverstoke 7 30. > > Alverstoke reg district was later split between Fareham, Portsmouth > and Gosport. > > Esther in the census from 1871 to 1911 gives her birth place as > Gosport, 1846/7. > > She was christened at Holy Trinity, Gosport 6/6/1847, parents George > and Anna Lance. > > It looks very likely that you found the right marriage. > > There doesn't seem to be any Hampshire local BMD site to check out a > local record. I think I will just go for the marriage cert from GRO. > It is John's father that interests me. > > Thanks again. > I've read this rather too late to be of much use, but this is all consistent with what I have. I'm Esther Lance's first cousin thrice removed, and I have her marrying John Lenton, a Gunner in the Royal Marine Artillery, in Portsmouth in 1866. He seems to have joined the Marines too early to be in the records available on-line from the National Archives, and the family seem not to have been church people - there are no obvious (Anglican) parish register records in Portsmouth for their marriage, nor for their children's baptisms. I only have thirteen children recorded for them, out of the fourteen alluded to in the 1911 census, but John Frederick looks like a possibility, at least. I'm not sure whether I shall pursue this, as Esther is just a little too far away for me to be inclined to invest in BMD certificates for her and her children, particularly wholly speculative ones. Perhaps one day I shall, if I ever feel uncomfortably wealthy. John Gibson.

In message <[email protected]> Jenny M Benson <[email protected]> wrote: > On 14/12/2014 21:37, brightside S9 wrote: > > There doesn't seem to be any Hampshire local BMD site to check out a > > local record. I think I will just go for the marriage cert from GRO. > > It is John's father that interests me. > > The error (assuming it is "typo" for Lenton) might be just in the GRO > Index or could be in the GRO's register. Why not get a "local Cert" > from Portsmouth? The 1841 census, HO107/797/11/19/31 has John Linton aged 7 with family in Gretton Northampton. William Linton 49 Lab Elizabeth wfe 45 Dinah d. 16 Thomas s. 12 Michael s. 12 John s. 7 Alec Lefevre

On 2014-12-15 00:23:20 +0000, Richard van Schaik said: > On 14-12-2014 23:05, Jenny M Benson wrote: >> On 14/12/2014 21:37, brightside S9 wrote: >>> There doesn't seem to be any Hampshire local BMD site to check out a >>> local record. I think I will just go for the marriage cert from GRO. >>> It is John's father that interests me. >> >> The error (assuming it is "typo" for Lenton) might be just in the GRO >> Index or could be in the GRO's register. Why not get a "local Cert" >> from Portsmouth? > > Think Jenny is correct. Awesome find of Tickettyboo so stay as close as > possible to the original entry. > > Richard I have a good few surnames on my tree which were just ripe for mistranscription. As brightside had obviously looked and drawn a blank, I tried FreeBMD. Surname L*, first name John, spouse first name Esther and a time frame of 1864 +/- 5 years, Hampshire. This entry was the only 'kind of possible' result that turned up. It 'is' a long shot, but in the absecnce of other possibles its worth looking into. The last two letters (ch) 'could' have been a misread 'on' or 'en' . http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/portsea%20island.html That says the registers are now held at Hampshire or Portsmouth. I'd be contacting them to ask them 'if' the original entry is the one I was looking for and, if so, buying from them. If not, an email or two would have saved the cost of an incorrect cert. I do buy lots of certs, but I try my damndest to make sure I only spend out what I need to :-) -- Tickettyboo

On 14-12-2014 23:05, Jenny M Benson wrote: > On 14/12/2014 21:37, brightside S9 wrote: >> There doesn't seem to be any Hampshire local BMD site to check out a >> local record. I think I will just go for the marriage cert from GRO. >> It is John's father that interests me. > > The error (assuming it is "typo" for Lenton) might be just in the GRO > Index or could be in the GRO's register. Why not get a "local Cert" > from Portsmouth? Think Jenny is correct. Awesome find of Tickettyboo so stay as close as possible to the original entry. Richard -- Richard van Schaik [email protected] http://www.fmavanschaik.nl/ The world is one big madhouse and this is main office.

On 14/12/2014 21:37, brightside S9 wrote: > There doesn't seem to be any Hampshire local BMD site to check out a > local record. I think I will just go for the marriage cert from GRO. > It is John's father that interests me. The error (assuming it is "typo" for Lenton) might be just in the GRO Index or could be in the GRO's register. Why not get a "local Cert" from Portsmouth? -- Jenny M Benson

On 2014-12-14 12:58:43 +0000, brightside S9 said: > 1871, 1881, 1891, 1901 and 1911 census images show an Esther Lenton > married to a John Lenton > > Ancestry search: Esther Lenton > Birth: 1847+/- 1 > Birth place: Gosport Hampshire. > (all exact) > > > However I cannot find a marriage for them. GRO has one marriage for a > Lenton to an Esther dated 1860 - too early > 1911 census information states 14 children, 9 still alive. > > 1871 census shows 1 child Alice Mary, aged 1, born Portsmouth. Alice's > birth is registered as LINTON. > GRO SEP 1869 Linton Alice Mary Portsea 2b 435 > > There is also a birth for John Frederick LINTON > GRO JUN 1867 Linton John Frederick Portsea 2b 414 > and his death > GRO JUN 1867 Linton John Frederick 0 Portsea 2b 274 > > These births indicate a possible marriage before 1867. > > I can also find two trees in Ancestry with John and Esther and 14 > children (list doesn't include John Frederick, so that would make 15 > children, but in 1911 aged 75, married for 45 years, memory might be > problem). 1 tree gives marriage date as 1866 but the reference is > from census. > > In 1871 census John Lenton's occupation is a Gunner RN[M] [retired]. > I have had no luck finding any military record(s) for him. Could his > marriage have been noted in military records? > > Anyone care to try and find this 'marraige'? Real long shot but the GRO index has a John LENTCH who married an Esther LANCE in Q3 1866, Portsea If it were me I'd be emailing the local registrar to ask if they'd check their register to see if the GRO index has a trancription error. -- Tickettyboo

In message <[email protected]>, Ian Goddard <[email protected]> writes: >On 12/12/14 22:11, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: >> In message <[email protected]>, Guy >> Etchells via <[email protected]> writes: >> [] >>> It is only when the researcher realises that virtually all parish >>> entries of baptisms and burials are transcripts, for example, that he >>> or she can understand that errors can and do appear in the registers. >> >> Would you care to expand on that? What exactly do you mean by "parish >> entries", and if they are transcripts, from what have they been >> transcribed? > >Written up from notes. I've certainly come across cases where the I suppose that's inevitable, if one thinks about it. >baptism & burial several days later are written up in a single entry so >clearly the writing up of the baptism and subsequent events didn't >happen until at least the occasion of the burial. Churches with Now you mention it, I've seen such too. >chapels of ease were another instance. There seems to have been a big >problem in getting the chaplains to send in their returns, at least in >the cases I'm familiar with. > >BTs seem to have been sent in at the end of the year which raises an >interesting question - were they transcribed from the PRs at year end, >written up during the year at the same time as the PRs or written up at >year end from the same notes as the PRs? There can be discrepancies >between BTs & PRs. > As Steven says, it probably varies widely. I've certainly seen a case where the BTs have been incorrectly copied - it was fairly clear that the PR came first in that case - but I could believe that more or less any combination we can think of (and some we can't!) exists somewhere/somewhen. -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)[email protected]+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf Solution: a more subtle problem

"Ian Goddard" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] > > BTs seem to have been sent in at the end of the year which raises an > interesting question - were they transcribed from the PRs at year end, > written up during the year at the same time as the PRs or written up at > year end from the same notes as the PRs? There can be discrepancies > between BTs & PRs. A lot of the 19th century registers I've been looking at have "copied", or a longer form of words, written in the margin once a year. I don't think we should pay too much attention as to how we think things might have been done, as it is all too likely that it varied dramatically from church to church, and vicar to vicar. Steven --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com

On 08/12/2014 10:38, David Marshall wrote: > My thanks to all who made suggestions. I am a little surprised that > "lacemaker" would have been considered more prestigious than "Corporal > in the Grenadier Guards" but maybe he just considered his military > service a temporary episode in his life - he bought himself out and > returned to lacemaking a couple of years later. > > David > Perhaps he was asked about his profession rather than his occupation. He may have served a long apprentiship to become a lace maker and only joined the army because he lost his job?

On Fri, 12 Dec 2014 22:11:35 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <[email protected]> wrote: >In message <[email protected]>, Guy >Etchells via <[email protected]> writes: >[] >>It is only when the researcher realises that virtually all parish >>entries of baptisms and burials are transcripts, for example, that he >>or she can understand that errors can and do appear in the registers. > >Would you care to expand on that? What exactly do you mean by "parish >entries", and if they are transcripts, from what have they been >transcribed? > They will often be a transcription from notes previously made in the clerk's diary, notebook or whatever bit of paper was available at the time of the event; the register itself tending to be kept in whatever was the parish clerk's "office" and not necessarily updated regularly or immediately. >>It is not just the big companies that are to blame we the individuals >>taking one research must shoulder the blame as well. >> >>Cheers >>Guy >>

On 12/12/14 22:11, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: > In message <[email protected]>, Guy > Etchells via <[email protected]> writes: > [] >> It is only when the researcher realises that virtually all parish >> entries of baptisms and burials are transcripts, for example, that he >> or she can understand that errors can and do appear in the registers. > > Would you care to expand on that? What exactly do you mean by "parish > entries", and if they are transcripts, from what have they been > transcribed? Written up from notes. I've certainly come across cases where the baptism & burial several days later are written up in a single entry so clearly the writing up of the baptism and subsequent events didn't happen until at least the occasion of the burial. Churches with chapels of ease were another instance. There seems to have been a big problem in getting the chaplains to send in their returns, at least in the cases I'm familiar with. BTs seem to have been sent in at the end of the year which raises an interesting question - were they transcribed from the PRs at year end, written up during the year at the same time as the PRs or written up at year end from the same notes as the PRs? There can be discrepancies between BTs & PRs. -- Ian The Hotmail address is my spam-bin. Real mail address is iang at austonley org uk

In message <[email protected]>, Guy Etchells via <[email protected]> writes: [] >It is only when the researcher realises that virtually all parish >entries of baptisms and burials are transcripts, for example, that he >or she can understand that errors can and do appear in the registers. Would you care to expand on that? What exactly do you mean by "parish entries", and if they are transcripts, from what have they been transcribed? >It is not just the big companies that are to blame we the individuals >taking one research must shoulder the blame as well. > >Cheers >Guy > -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)[email protected]+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf `Where a calculator on the Eniac is equipped with 18,000 vacuum tubes and weighs 30 tons, computers in the future may have only 1,000 vacuum tubes and perhaps weigh 1.5 tons.' Popular Mechanics, March 1949 (quoted in Computing 1999-12-16)

"Jenny M Benson" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] >I am quite used to having to enter a "Birthdate" when what I am actually >searching for is a Baptism (yes, Ancestry, I'm looking at you) and now I >find the "Date of Death" of many of my relatives is recorded amongst FMP's >Hampshire Burials records. I *presume* the dates shown are actually of >Burials but there is nothing in these transcriptions to indicate of what, >exactly, these are transcriptions. Again, I can only *presume* they are of >PRs or BTs (but which?) but maybe they are from something else. > > Which ties in with another of my gripes about FMP - they are constantly > shouting about the millions of new "records" they are releasing each week, > but in so many cases these are actual transcriptions. Call me pedantic, > but I consider an image of a PR (for example) to be a RECORD, whereas > someone's transcription of that PR entry is just that, a TRANSCRIPTION. > > FMP don't seem to be aware or just don't care - that anyone serious about > their research wants to see RECORDS, not transcriptions. Granted, > transcriptions are better than nothing, but little better if they aren't > labelled correctly and don't include sources. > -- > Jenny M Benson Re: "records", I think this is a case of differences in terminology Jenny. FMP are talking about records in their database, which is a standard piece of software terminology. A genealogist or historian would consider "records" to be some representation of the original source -- or the original itself -- from which those transcriptions were made. It gets more confusing when the recommendations for citations distinguish "[database] entry" from "image", thus suggesting that images are not part of the database. From a software perspective, most modern databases do have an image data-type, but even if the site doesn't use it, and the images are held externally to the database itself, they would still be indexed by the same database (ignoring the browse-only datasets). Tony Proctor

On Thu, 11 Dec 2014 07:34:13 +0000, Guy Etchells via <[email protected]> wrote: >It is only when the researcher realises that virtually all parish >entries of baptisms and burials are transcripts, for example, that he or >she can understand that errors can and do appear in the registers. >It is not just the big companies that are to blame we the individuals >taking one research must shoulder the blame as well. And most civil registration records are as well -- certainly all the ones at the GRO. . -- Steve Hayes Web: http://hayesgreene.wordpress.com/ http://hayesgreene.blogspot.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/afgen/

On a slightly different subject,I had a distant relation cremated 12 mths after he died,which I could not understand and was slightly worrying. I sent an email to the crematorium in Cambridge,with brief details and I received back a very nice informative email,stating that the deceased,was with Cambridge College of Medicine,for a year,for the students doctors,in there final year of study. Nick --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com

On 11/12/2014 07:34, Guy Etchells via wrote: > Sorry but your post explains why so may family trees are inaccurate, > just look at what you have written! What I didn't also say, because I didn't think it was necessary to my point, was that having *presumed* something I then do further research to confirm or deny, if possible, that my presumptions were correct. -- Jenny M Benson