On 2015-01-12 14:03:37 +0000, Chris Dickinson said: > Hi All > > Back in 2008, I asked about my grandmother's transatlantic journeys and > received some wonderfully informative replies. > > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/genbrit/2008-03/1206737483 > > > I don't have the relevent subscriptions to pursue my next enquiry > (though, of course I could go down to the local library). As maybe the > problem is interesting, I'm going to try here first to see whether > anyone wants to do some look ups. > > My late father, Basil Philip Harriman Dickinson, was in the fast track > of the Civil Service in the 1940s. In 1946 he travelled with his > minister, Alfred Barnes (Minister of Transport), to New York. My > understanding is that this was something to do with the United Nations > - Wiki comments: > > |Prior to the construction of the current complex, the UN was > headquartered at a temporary location at the Sperry Corporation's > offices in Lake Success, New York, an eastern suburb of the city in > Nassau County on Long Island, from 1946 to 1952.[15] The Security > Council also held sessions on what was then the Bronx campus of Hunter > College (now the site of Lehman College) from March to August 1946| > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headquarters_of_the_United_Nations > > His main story about the trip was to do with Molotov. I've already > recited this in the earlier thread: > > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/genbrit/2008-04/1207174245 > > I hadn't thought about this since, but happened to be reminded today > and did some index searching. Molotov is there: > > http://search.findmypast.co.uk/results/united-kingdom-records-in-travel-and-migration?lastname=molotov > > > though his given name is provided as 'VIRCHESLAN' rather than 'Vyacheslav'. > There are two Alfred Barnes' in the index for a 1946 New York voyage: > Alfred H Barnes (born 1895) and Alfred R Barnes (born 1916). > > http://search.findmypast.co.uk/results/united-kingdom-records-in-travel-and-migration?firstname=alfred%20&firstname_variants=true&lastname=barnes&eventyear=1946&eventyear_offset=0 > > > Wiki gives the minister's name as Alfred John Barnes, born 1887. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Barnes_(Labour_politician) > > There is no entry for my father under his first name, Basil, but there > seems to be under his second, Philip. > http://search.findmypast.co.uk/results/united-kingdom-records-in-travel-and-migration?firstname=philip&firstname_variants=true&lastname=dickinson&eventyear=1946&eventyear_offset=0 > > > A problem is that he is stated as born in 1888, whereas he was born in > 1916. Just the date given for Alfred R Barnes above. > > So it looks pretty obvious that the birth dates have been transposed > between my father and his minister. It would be nice to see, though, > whether this is a fault of the index, or of the original manifest. > Anyone care to check? > > Thanks > Chris The image from the link for Philip Dickinson doesn't seem likely, so I checked the Passenger Lists to NY via Ancestry 16th Oct 1946 S.S.Queen Elizabeth left Southampton and arrived NY 21 Oct 1946. Passenger (listed in the Diplomatic section) Basil Dickinson, age 30, Govt Official, British, born Seaford, living in London, n.o.k. wife: Mrs Beryl H Dickinson, 4 Dover Park Rd, London, last in U.S. (NY) 1936. Destination British Merchant Shipping Mission, Commerce Bld, Washington D.C., 5ft 10ins tall, fair complexion, brown hair, hazel eyes Does that sound like the right man? -- Tickettyboo

I'm looking at the history of a John Kaye of Almondbury. He appears in his own right in as a suitor of the manorial court, with his abode given as Smithiehill which I can't trace and subsequently at Lowerhouses* which still exist. In 1637 he moves to "the Church gates"**. There are baptisms of children of John Kaye of "vill" at the time when John of Smithiehill appears in the MR and subsequently of Lowerhouses or Church gates. In the same court that John of Churchyates appears in the MR John Kaye esq of Grange, lord of the adjacent manor of Woodsome, is reported as being represented as a suitor by John Kaye "his farmer". Subsequently there were surrenders by John Kaye, late of Netherhouse and subsequently by John Kaye son and heir of John Kaye of Wellhead, lately deceased***. In both cases John's wife was Dorothy and the surrenders were in favour of John Kaye of Grange. Subsequently John of Churchyates is no longer listed as a suitor in his own right but he is from time-to-time empanelled as a juror or elected constable. During this period John of Grange and his successor, John Kaye 1st bart, are represented by their attorney, John Kaye; the last such representation is the court prior to the burial of John of the Church gates. I'm satisfied that John Kaye variously described as of the vill, Smithiehill, Lowerhouses and Churchyates are one and the same, the son of John of Wellhead and the John Kaye who represented the Woodsome branch of the Kayes in respect of their Almondbury holdings. What I'm trying to understand is his relationship with them. My understanding is that before "farmer" took on its present meaning of agriculturalist it meant one who would collect rents on a landlord's property and pay them on to the landlord at an agreed rate allowing him a profit for his efforts but putting him at risk of non-payment by the tenants. If this gave rise to a transaction at the court I'd have expected it to be one where he received the properties from the landlord for a term of years. Instead the transactions here are surrenders to the use of the Woodsome Kayes. Ian *Lowerhouses is the modern name, variations of both this and Netherhouse are found in contemporary sources. As there is no current variation of Netherhouse in Almondbury I take them to refer to the same place. **Churchyates is also used. Gate in Yorkshire dialect can refer to "way" or street, e.g. "Tha're in t'gate" = "You are causing an obstruction" and Westgate is the name of the street running past Almondbury church. Having the "yate" variation excludes the possibility that "Churchgate" means "Church Street". This description of John Kaye's abode seems to fit that of the cottage at the west end of the steeple provided for the parish clerk and apparently built by a John Kaye about the 1580s but whether this was a John Kaye of Woodsome or a John Kaye of Thorpe, the leading candidates, is not clear. Overlapping John Kaye's occupation of this house there was a parish clerk, perhaps inevitably called John Kaye, but who seems to have been distinct from the John Kaye with whom I'm concerned. ***I had already considered John of Wellhead to have been the father before coming across this transaction.

Chris Dickinson wrote: > Odd too, that, he was last in New York in 1936. One of his stories was that he had to leave ship (the 'New York') for family reasons when it stopped off at Biarritz. I suppose that he would still have been on the passenger list though, and maybe thus 'officially' arrived in New York. > > So annoying that I didn't pursue this while my father was still alive. Chris: I see no indication that he (listed as Basil P.H. Dickinson)did not arrive in NYC in 1936. He and his mother were on their way to Bermuda. And she really must have liked Bermuda because there are more than 4/5 trips thru NYC and staying at the Barbizon Plaza Hotel in 1935/36. Where did she get the scars on her left hand? [email protected]

<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30773030> -- Graeme Wall This account not read, substitute trains for rail. Railway Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail>

On Monday, 12 January 2015 19:00:49 UTC, ecunningham wrote: > Chris Dickinson wrote: > > > Odd too, that, he was last in New York in 1936. One of his stories was that he had to leave ship (the 'New York') for family reasons when it stopped off at Biarritz. I suppose that he would still have been on the passenger list though, and maybe thus 'officially' arrived in New York. > > > > So annoying that I didn't pursue this while my father was still alive. > > Chris: I see no indication that he (listed as Basil P.H. Dickinson)did > not arrive in NYC in 1936. He and his mother were on their way to > Bermuda. And she really must have liked Bermuda because there are more > than 4/5 trips thru NYC and staying at the Barbizon Plaza Hotel in > 1935/36. Where did she get the scars on her left hand? Thank you for that. You were very helpful in 2008. Hmm, I've been thinking about this. It may be that I have conflated two journeys. My grandparents marriage broke up in the 1930s when my father was a teenager (my grandfather's fault - he was having an affair with the cook). By 1935, my grandmother was starting a relationship with a very rich American, hence the frequent trips to Bermuda and the Bahamas. In 1936 (or later), tensions boiled over between my grandparents - my grandfather sent a telegram to Ina while their ship was at Biarritz, inventing a family cris, in order to prevent her affair developing, and she hurried off board with Basil. I know that this was 1936 (or later) because my father was watching German planes bombing Spain when the telegram arrived. Guernica didn't happen till 1937, however, and was one of the first bombings, so a date later than 1936 would make sense. In any case, I was originally under the impression that the liner was German. So it may be that the 1936 journey on the 'New York' had already happened, and the terminated trip was on the German liner sometime 1937-9. That makes a lot more sense, now that I think of it. I wasn't aware that my grandmother had scars on her left hand (she died when I was only 7) - but maybe that happened when she threw a very large glass bowl at her husband through a window :-) Chris

On Monday, 12 January 2015 19:17:44 UTC, Tickettyboo wrote: > On 2015-01-12 18:24:33 +0000, Chris Dickinson said: > > > > >> The image from the link for Philip Dickinson doesn't seem likely, so I> > >> checked the Passenger Lists to NY via Ancestry > >> 16th Oct 1946 S.S.Queen Elizabeth left Southampton and arrived NY 21 Oct 1946. > >> Passenger (listed in the Diplomatic section) Basil Dickinson, age 30,> > >> Govt Official, British, born Seaford, living in London, n.o.k. wife:> > >> Mrs Beryl H Dickinson, 4 Dover Park Rd, London, last in U.S. (NY) > >> 1936.> Destination British Merchant Shipping Mission, Commerce Bld, > >> Washington> D.C., 5ft 10ins tall, fair complexion, brown hair, hazel > >> eyes > >> > >> Does that sound like the right man? > > > > > > Ah, thank you. Yes, that's the right man. Hmm, I wonder why then he > > didn't come up on the index I searched. > > Strange that Barnes isn't there - I could have sworn that he said he > > was travelling with him. Perhaps I got the wrong man and he was > > travelling with the permanent secretary, Cyril Hurcomb. > > > > Odd too, that, he was last in New York in 1936. One of his stories was > > that he had to leave ship (the 'New York') for family reasons when it > > stopped off at Biarritz. I suppose that he would still have been on the > > passenger list though, and maybe thus 'officially' arrived in New York. > > > > So annoying that I didn't pursue this while my father was still alive. > > > > Thanks again. > > Chris > > Yes Hurcomb was listed and has the same destination as Basil. > -- > Tickettyboo Just to say that Tickettyboo has very kindly sent me the images.

On Monday, 12 January 2015 17:59:07 UTC, Richard Smith wrote: > On 12/01/15 14:53, Ian Goddard wrote: > > > **Churchyates is also used. Gate in Yorkshire dialect can refer to > > "way" or street, e.g. "Tha're in t'gate" = "You are causing an > > obstruction" and Westgate is the name of the street running past > > Almondbury church. Having the "yate" variation excludes the possibility > > that "Churchgate" means "Church Street". > > Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you. Are you saying that you don't think > Churchyates means Church Street because of the spelling? If so, I > disagree. I grew up in a small village in the Yorkshire Moors -- > admittedly some distance northeast of Almondbury -- and the older > generation of locals sometimes used the word "gate" for a street. It > was always pronounced "yat", rhyming with "cat", but with a "y" sound > of "yes". The village of Chop Gate was the same: traditionally > pronounced something like chupyat. > > Richard Yes, that puzzled me too. My ancestors' old farm in Cumberland is called 'Streetgate', which I have always understood to mean 'straight road' (there was a Roman road running through the property) and I think I've seen it with a 'yeat' spelling as well as a 'gat'. Chris

> The image from the link for Philip Dickinson doesn't seem likely, so I > checked the Passenger Lists to NY via Ancestry > 16th Oct 1946 S.S.Queen Elizabeth left Southampton and arrived NY 21 Oct 1946. > Passenger (listed in the Diplomatic section) Basil Dickinson, age 30, > Govt Official, British, born Seaford, living in London, n.o.k. wife: > Mrs Beryl H Dickinson, 4 Dover Park Rd, London, last in U.S. (NY) 1936. > Destination British Merchant Shipping Mission, Commerce Bld, Washington > D.C., 5ft 10ins tall, fair complexion, brown hair, hazel eyes > > Does that sound like the right man? Ah, thank you. Yes, that's the right man. Hmm, I wonder why then he didn't come up on the index I searched. Strange that Barnes isn't there - I could have sworn that he said he was travelling with him. Perhaps I got the wrong man and he was travelling with the permanent secretary, Cyril Hurcomb. Odd too, that, he was last in New York in 1936. One of his stories was that he had to leave ship (the 'New York') for family reasons when it stopped off at Biarritz. I suppose that he would still have been on the passenger list though, and maybe thus 'officially' arrived in New York. So annoying that I didn't pursue this while my father was still alive. Thanks again. Chris

On 12/01/2015 00:27, eve via wrote: > These are the Dade registers, and the practice applies mainly to clergy in > Yorkshire and a few in Notts. Rare as hen's teeth where parsons were not > relying on York for advancement in the church. And for a while at Witton-cum-Twambrooks in Cheshire, which has been a Godsend to me - although in some cases they would have been a lot more helpful if ALL of FMP's images were the full double-page spread: a significant number are the left-side only or the left-side twice. -- Jenny M Benson

Hi All Back in 2008, I asked about my grandmother's transatlantic journeys and received some wonderfully informative replies. http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/genbrit/2008-03/1206737483 I don't have the relevent subscriptions to pursue my next enquiry (though, of course I could go down to the local library). As maybe the problem is interesting, I'm going to try here first to see whether anyone wants to do some look ups. My late father, Basil Philip Harriman Dickinson, was in the fast track of the Civil Service in the 1940s. In 1946 he travelled with his minister, Alfred Barnes (Minister of Transport), to New York. My understanding is that this was something to do with the United Nations - Wiki comments: |Prior to the construction of the current complex, the UN was headquartered at a temporary location at the Sperry Corporation's offices in Lake Success, New York, an eastern suburb of the city in Nassau County on Long Island, from 1946 to 1952.[15] The Security Council also held sessions on what was then the Bronx campus of Hunter College (now the site of Lehman College) from March to August 1946| http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headquarters_of_the_United_Nations His main story about the trip was to do with Molotov. I've already recited this in the earlier thread: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/genbrit/2008-04/1207174245 I hadn't thought about this since, but happened to be reminded today and did some index searching. Molotov is there: http://search.findmypast.co.uk/results/united-kingdom-records-in-travel-and-migration?lastname=molotov though his given name is provided as 'VIRCHESLAN' rather than 'Vyacheslav'. There are two Alfred Barnes' in the index for a 1946 New York voyage: Alfred H Barnes (born 1895) and Alfred R Barnes (born 1916). http://search.findmypast.co.uk/results/united-kingdom-records-in-travel-and-migration?firstname=alfred%20&firstname_variants=true&lastname=barnes&eventyear=1946&eventyear_offset=0 Wiki gives the minister's name as Alfred John Barnes, born 1887. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Barnes_(Labour_politician) There is no entry for my father under his first name, Basil, but there seems to be under his second, Philip. http://search.findmypast.co.uk/results/united-kingdom-records-in-travel-and-migration?firstname=philip&firstname_variants=true&lastname=dickinson&eventyear=1946&eventyear_offset=0 A problem is that he is stated as born in 1888, whereas he was born in 1916. Just the date given for Alfred R Barnes above. So it looks pretty obvious that the birth dates have been transposed between my father and his minister. It would be nice to see, though, whether this is a fault of the index, or of the original manifest. Anyone care to check? Thanks Chris

> > Seeing the original probably wouldn't help either - before 1837, > > marriage entries in the parish register usually only gave the name of > > the bride and the groom. > > > > Usually, yes. But you never know your luck as vicars could have their > little eccentricities about what they recorded. e.g. for a time in the > mid C18th the Kirkburton burial registers were divided into columns > giving date of death, age and even cause of death in addition to the > usual details. > These are the Dade registers, and the practice applies mainly to clergy in Yorkshire and a few in Notts. Rare as hen's teeth where parsons were not relying on York for advancement in the church. EVE Author of The McLaughlin Guides for Family Historians Secretary, Bucks Genealogical Society

On Sun, 11 Jan 2015 16:51:50 +1030, Anne Chambers <[email protected]> wrote: >Anne Chambers wrote: >> Geoff wrote: >>> Hi >>> >>> I wondered if anyone has access to the marriage records of Nutfield in Sussex for 1809? >>> >>> I am referring to a marriage between Francis Stray & Ann Wells which took place on 15th August 1809. I >>> have found the marriage in Ancestry amongst "Selected marriage records but this doesn't give me enough >>> information. Likewise with IGI (Family search) Anne was born in 1785. >>> >>> I particularly need to know who Ann's parents were or at least her father. There were several Ann Wells born >>> in and around that time & place and I can't prove which one she is. Records for Nuthurst seem rather rare >>> unfortunately >>> >>> Any help would be much appreciated. >>> >>> Geoff >> Seeing the original probably wouldn't help either - before 1837, marriage entries in the parish register >> usually only gave the name of the bride and the groom. >> >And I've just realised that that was wrong - depending on the church, you could get the names of witnesses as >well but fathers' names were not given. > If they do appear then IME it is usually a sign that someone else in the parish/place has the same name.

Anne Chambers wrote: > Geoff wrote: >> Hi >> >> I wondered if anyone has access to the marriage records of Nutfield in Sussex for 1809? >> >> I am referring to a marriage between Francis Stray & Ann Wells which took place on 15th August 1809. I >> have found the marriage in Ancestry amongst "Selected marriage records but this doesn't give me enough >> information. Likewise with IGI (Family search) Anne was born in 1785. >> >> I particularly need to know who Ann's parents were or at least her father. There were several Ann Wells born >> in and around that time & place and I can't prove which one she is. Records for Nuthurst seem rather rare >> unfortunately >> >> Any help would be much appreciated. >> >> Geoff > Seeing the original probably wouldn't help either - before 1837, marriage entries in the parish register > usually only gave the name of the bride and the groom. > And I've just realised that that was wrong - depending on the church, you could get the names of witnesses as well but fathers' names were not given. -- Anne Chambers South Australia anne dot chambers at bigpond dot com

Geoff wrote: > Hi > > I wondered if anyone has access to the marriage records of Nutfield in Sussex for 1809? > > I am referring to a marriage between Francis Stray & Ann Wells which took place on 15th August 1809. I > have found the marriage in Ancestry amongst "Selected marriage records but this doesn't give me enough > information. Likewise with IGI (Family search) Anne was born in 1785. > > I particularly need to know who Ann's parents were or at least her father. There were several Ann Wells born > in and around that time & place and I can't prove which one she is. Records for Nuthurst seem rather rare > unfortunately > > Any help would be much appreciated. > > Geoff Seeing the original probably wouldn't help either - before 1837, marriage entries in the parish register usually only gave the name of the bride and the groom. -- Anne Chambers South Australia anne dot chambers at bigpond dot com

> I wondered if anyone has access to the marriage records of Nutfield in > Sussex for 1809? > > I am referring to a marriage between Francis Stray & Ann Wells which took > place on 15th August 1809. I have found the marriage in Ancestry amongst > "Selected marriage records but this doesn't give me enough information. > Likewise with IGI (Family search) Anne was born in 1785. It isn't that simple. You do not get any information about parents of the couple in a marriage register before 1837 (unless if was an offspring of the vicar or the local squaire, and not always even then.) One of the witnesses may be a recognisable relative, or if the couple happen to have been married by licence instead of banns, the Allegation & Bond might give a clue in the name of the second bondsman. You need to check ALL marriages involoving an Ann Wells to see if you can eliminate one. Or, alternatiovely, hope that in the 1851 census, one of her kinsmen is with the couple. EVE Author of The McLaughlin Guides for Family Historians Secretary, Bucks Genealogical Society

The burial register of Brindle St Joseph RC, Lancashire, has this > "priest's Latin" entry. > > 1750 Aug 9 Joanna Ashton vidua Longaeva nata Gandari in Flandria > > I think "vidua" is widow, and "Longaeva" might be "very old" (or very > tall, but old is more likely). "Nata" is "born at" and I assume > "Flandria" is Flanders. Any guesses at where "Gandari" might be? just possibly Ghent -which does appear as Gant. EVE Author of The McLaughlin Guides for Family Historians Secretary, Bucks Genealogical Society

> > "eve via" <[email protected]> wrote in message > news:[email protected] > > MAKING ENDS MEET > > Too much week at the end of your money is nothing new. Shortage of ready > > cash could affect people on any level and the solyution could be selling > > the > > family silver, mortgaging, gnawing it out, migrating, going on the parish, > > poaching, pawning the old man's suit, moonlight flitting, going on the > > game, > > nicking off stalls, or, in extremis, turning to the Charity Organisation > > Society > > (aka Crawl or Starve). > > Eve McLaughlin tells the Bucks Genealogical Society all about it on Sat > > January 10 at 2.30 (doors 2pm) at the Southcourt Community Centre, > > Prebendal Ave, Aylesbury HP21 8LF > > If you live within reach, come and learn survival skills .All welcome > > -details [email protected] or 01844 291631 > > > > > > > > > > took me a while to realise this isn't really spam - but it is a lot of > reading before that begins to dawn. oh, funny. :-) The local radio 'What's On listing billed it as Making Ends Meat. - EVE Author of The McLaughlin Guides for Family Historians Secretary, Bucks Genealogical Society

On 2015-01-11 10:13:50 +0000, Geoff said: > "Geoff" wrote in message news:[email protected] > > Hi > > I wondered if anyone has access to the marriage records of Nutfield in > Sussex for 1809? > > I am referring to a marriage between Francis Stray & Ann Wells which took > place on 15th August 1809. I have found the marriage in Ancestry amongst > "Selected marriage records but this doesn't give me enough information. > Likewise with IGI (Family search) Anne was born in 1785. > > I particularly need to know who Ann's parents were or at least her father. > There were several Ann Wells born in and around that time & place and I > can't prove which one she is. Records for Nuthurst seem rather rare > unfortunately > > Any help would be much appreciated. > <<<<<<< > > Geoff > > Thanks for the replies. I had forgotten about the lack of entry details. > It was a typo, I meant Nuthurst. > > I'll try some other means. > > Thanks again, > > Geoff. Try Susex OPC, http://www.sussex-opc.org/index.php?cy=52&n=nuthurst&b=index.php&t=parish&k=223&l=102 the link to St Andrews ( the parish curch) says they will do look ups from microfilm. -- Tickettyboo

On 11/01/15 06:17, Anne Chambers wrote: > Geoff wrote: >> Hi >> >> I wondered if anyone has access to the marriage records of Nutfield in >> Sussex for 1809? >> >> I am referring to a marriage between Francis Stray & Ann Wells which >> took place on 15th August 1809. I >> have found the marriage in Ancestry amongst "Selected marriage records >> but this doesn't give me enough >> information. Likewise with IGI (Family search) Anne was born in 1785. >> >> I particularly need to know who Ann's parents were or at least her >> father. There were several Ann Wells born >> in and around that time & place and I can't prove which one she is. >> Records for Nuthurst seem rather rare >> unfortunately >> >> Any help would be much appreciated. >> >> Geoff > Seeing the original probably wouldn't help either - before 1837, > marriage entries in the parish register usually only gave the name of > the bride and the groom. > Usually, yes. But you never know your luck as vicars could have their little eccentricities about what they recorded. e.g. for a time in the mid C18th the Kirkburton burial registers were divided into columns giving date of death, age and even cause of death in addition to the usual details. -- Ian The Hotmail address is my spam-bin. Real mail address is iang at austonley org uk

On 11/01/2015 10:13, Geoff wrote: > > > "Geoff" wrote in message news:[email protected] > > Hi > > I wondered if anyone has access to the marriage records of Nutfield in > Sussex for 1809? > > I am referring to a marriage between Francis Stray & Ann Wells which took > place on 15th August 1809. I have found the marriage in Ancestry amongst > "Selected marriage records but this doesn't give me enough information. > Likewise with IGI (Family search) Anne was born in 1785. > > I particularly need to know who Ann's parents were or at least her father. > There were several Ann Wells born in and around that time & place and I > can't prove which one she is. Records for Nuthurst seem rather rare > unfortunately > > Any help would be much appreciated. > <<<<<<< > > Geoff > > Thanks for the replies. I had forgotten about the lack of entry details. > It was a typo, I meant Nuthurst. > > I'll try some other means. > > Thanks again, > > Geoff. The marriage is also listed in FindMyPast but, sadly, that doesn't tell you anything that you don't already know. -- Cheers, Roger ____________ Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom checked.