On 2015-01-16 15:35:16 +0000, [email protected] said: > On Monday, 8 September 2014 23:42:02 UTC+1, Tickettyboo wrote: >> RG4 Piece 1581: South Shields, Apsceate Congregation (Scotch Church),> >> 1783-1813 >> I am not very au fait with the various flavours of Non Conformists and> >> though I have Googled till my fingers are worn down I can't find any> >> explanation of the term "Apsceate" >> >> This is the hand written title page of the register >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/cbd4csl2jxmqe57/04.jpg?dl=0 >> I suppose it 'could' say Apsclate, but I can't find any explanation of> >> that either. >> >> If its relevant, I believe that this is the first of two books> >> submitted in 1837. The first one (above )does not have the> >> Certificate/Statement on the film, but the second one (Piece 2836,> >> NorthShields, Secession Church, Norfolk St, 1813-1837) does, and it> >> states two books were submitted which together cover 1783- 1837 >> though> the entries in Piece 2836 start at 1814 (so it was the second >> book and> Piece 1581 would be the first) >> >> The signatures on the handwritten certification at the end of both> >> pieces are by the same three men, so I think its reasonable to assume> >> its the same church/congregation for both. >> >> Can anyone shed any light on the term "apsceate" please? Does it> >> indicate a change (though maybe just slight) in the religion, perhaps> >> they were a sub group of the Scotch Church from 1814 onwards? >> >> tch! The longer I do this stuff the more I realise that there is SO> >> much I just have no idea about! >> >> >> Thanks >> >> -- >> Tickettyboo > Hello- I am also doing research that involves the "South Shields > Apsceate Church" and baptisms that took place there in the late 1790s- > early 1800s- I think more info is to be gleaned if you search for the > "Scotch Church" which is what I am going to do shortly. To be fair- > even though there is a "great big river" between N. and S. Shields- I > have just read that back then the river could be forded (crossed) at > low tide...don't know if that helps at all- 'just thought it was worth > a mention! Good luck with all your research- fascinating aint it?!!! > Jane See my other post(s) which confirm the word was mistranscribed in the NA description (now amended) and it actually says Associate. I'd be really interested to have the reference for where you read the Tyne could be 'forded' at Shields at low tide. I never discount anything, but am very surprised to hear that. -- Tickettyboo
On 2015-01-16 16:31:47 +0000, Peter Goodey said: > On 16/01/15 15:35, [email protected] wrote:> On Monday, 8 > September 2014 23:42:02 UTC+1, Tickettyboo wrote: > >> RG4 Piece 1581: South Shields, Apsceate Congregation (Scotch Church), > >> 1783-1813 > >> I am not very au fait with the various flavours of Non Conformists and > >> though I have Googled till my fingers are worn down I can't find any > >> explanation of the term "Apsceate" > > Could it be "apostate" - someone who abandons his religion - a renegade > or rebel? Could it be associated with a split or secession from the > church? I contacted the NA and they agreed their description should have said Associate. I did update this thread as the NA told me they have now amended the description so it reads correctly. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C2492598 -- Tickettyboo
On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 00:10:39 -0800 (PST), John Watt <[email protected]> wrote: >I just don't have the words to express my thanks at all the work you all have done to find all that information - the only item still unfound is the marriage of PERCY EDWARD WARNE to Eileen Mary O'Connell !!!!!!!!! > >Again, I'm VERY grateful. > There might be some further links to explore at the bottom of :- http://www.coraweb.com.au/india.htm Marriage information post-1900 does not seem to be conveniently grouped together rather than there being disparate indexes of various churches found. If you do manage to locate the date and place and it is in Ceylon / Sri Lanka, then you send your 100 or 200 Rupees to the appropriate Divisional Secretariat if you want a copy of the registration :- http://www.gic.gov.lk/gic/index.php?option=com_info&id=367&catid=51&task=info&lang=en but that contains an implicit hint in item 7 that a marriage was not always registered.
Charles Ellson wrote: >> > There doesn't seem to be anything in the probate indexes for England > and Wales** for Aileen up to 2006 which hints at either they remained > in Ceylon/Sri Lanka or could have returned to Ireland. > They were in India as late as 1955, according to the court case, which comes up when one Googles "Percy Edward Warne".......it reminded me a bit of the TV series screened years ago, "Staying On". He didn't get nearly as much compensation for unfair dismissal as he was claiming, so they might, indeed, have stayed on because they couldn't afford to go anywhere else. -- Anne Chambers South Australia anne dot chambers at bigpond dot com
On 16/01/15 16:31, Peter Goodey wrote: > On 16/01/15 15:35, [email protected] wrote:> On Monday, 8 September > 2014 23:42:02 UTC+1, Tickettyboo wrote: > >> RG4 Piece 1581: South Shields, Apsceate Congregation (Scotch Church), > >> 1783-1813 > >> I am not very au fait with the various flavours of Non Conformists and > >> though I have Googled till my fingers are worn down I can't find any > >> explanation of the term "Apsceate" > > Could it be "apostate" - someone who abandons his religion - a renegade > or rebel? Could it be associated with a split or secession from the church? It was a Presbyterian church of some sort, so I can believe someone outside the church might have referred to them, somewhat pejoratively, as apostates. Another possibility that crossed my mind as "associate", where the first "s" was a long "s". I'm not quite sure what that would mean in this context. Richard
On 16/01/15 15:35, [email protected] wrote:> On Monday, 8 September 2014 23:42:02 UTC+1, Tickettyboo wrote: >> RG4 Piece 1581: South Shields, Apsceate Congregation (Scotch Church), >> 1783-1813 >> I am not very au fait with the various flavours of Non Conformists and >> though I have Googled till my fingers are worn down I can't find any >> explanation of the term "Apsceate" Could it be "apostate" - someone who abandons his religion - a renegade or rebel? Could it be associated with a split or secession from the church?
Anne Chambers wrote: > Charles Ellson wrote: >> On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 11:32:09 +1030, Anne Chambers <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Anne Sherman wrote: >>>> Find My Past have a passenger list record for Percy and Aileen Warne leaving Liverpool aboard the >>>> OXFORDSHIRE heading to Cochin, India on 8 May 1935. They are recorded as being husband and wife with an >>>> address in Dublin. He is aged 35 (bn abt 1900) and Planter she is aged 30. If this is your Percy >>>> perhaps he married in Ireland. >>>> >>> The address given is "Arona, Clonskeagh, Co.Dublin"- if this was her home, she may have been an O'Connell. >>> Google gives that address for James John O'Connell in 1918 >>> >> That family is in Cork in 1911 :- >> http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cork/Cork_No__6_Urban/South_Mall/394334/ >> > Well - we seem to have identified his wife :) > Aileen Mary O'Connell - age & everything else fits with the information on the passenger list. > Shows what joint endeavours and a bit of sleuthing can do. > FamilySearch has her birth registration: Name: Aileen Mary O'Connell Event Type: Birth Event Date: Oct - Dec 1905 Event Place: Kilkenny, Ireland Registration Quarter and Year: Oct - Dec 1905 Registration District: Kilkenny Volume Number: 3 Page Number: 352 GS Film number: 101070 , Digital Folder Number: 004193984 , Image Number: 00585 -- Anne Chambers South Australia anne dot chambers at bigpond dot com
Charles Ellson wrote: > On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 11:32:09 +1030, Anne Chambers <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Anne Sherman wrote: >>> Find My Past have a passenger list record for Percy and Aileen Warne leaving Liverpool aboard the OXFORDSHIRE heading to Cochin, India on 8 May 1935. They are recorded as being husband and wife with an address in Dublin. He is aged 35 (bn abt 1900) and Planter she is aged 30. If this is your Percy perhaps he married in Ireland. >>> >> The address given is "Arona, Clonskeagh, Co.Dublin"- if this was her home, she may have been an O'Connell. >> Google gives that address for James John O'Connell in 1918 >> > That family is in Cork in 1911 :- > http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cork/Cork_No__6_Urban/South_Mall/394334/ > Well - we seem to have identified his wife :) Aileen Mary O'Connell - age & everything else fits with the information on the passenger list. Shows what joint endeavours and a bit of sleuthing can do. -- Anne Chambers South Australia anne dot chambers at bigpond dot com
Charles Ellson wrote: > On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 03:29:40 -0800 (PST), Anne Sherman > <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Find My Past have a passenger list record for Percy and Aileen Warne leaving >> Liverpool aboard the OXFORDSHIRE heading to Cochin, India on 8 May >> 1935. They are recorded as being husband and wife with an address in >> Dublin. He is aged 35 (bn abt 1900) and Planter she is aged 30. If >> this is your Percy perhaps he married in Ireland. >> > There is no matching marriage (Percy WARNE to Aileen or variants) in > the Irish indexes or in England and Wales but that still leaves > Northern Ireland or Ceylon (and elsewhere) for checking. > Their last place of permanent residence in 1935 is shown as "other > parts of the Empire" which hints at a possible Ceylon marriage. > Ancestry's Incoming Passenger lists for the 1935 trip show 'India' as the last place of permanent residence. Aileen's initials are A.M. which may help for future identification and her age is given as 30. -- Anne Chambers South Australia anne dot chambers at bigpond dot com
Anne Sherman wrote: > Find My Past have a passenger list record for Percy and Aileen Warne leaving Liverpool aboard the OXFORDSHIRE heading to Cochin, India on 8 May 1935. They are recorded as being husband and wife with an address in Dublin. He is aged 35 (bn abt 1900) and Planter she is aged 30. If this is your Percy perhaps he married in Ireland. > The address given is "Arona, Clonskeagh, Co.Dublin"- if this was her home, she may have been an O'Connell. Google gives that address for James John O'Connell in 1918 -- Anne Chambers South Australia anne dot chambers at bigpond dot com
On Monday, 8 September 2014 23:42:02 UTC+1, Tickettyboo wrote: > RG4 Piece 1581: South Shields, Apsceate Congregation (Scotch Church), > 1783-1813 > I am not very au fait with the various flavours of Non Conformists and > though I have Googled till my fingers are worn down I can't find any > explanation of the term "Apsceate" > > This is the hand written title page of the register > https://www.dropbox.com/s/cbd4csl2jxmqe57/04.jpg?dl=0 > I suppose it 'could' say Apsclate, but I can't find any explanation of > that either. > > If its relevant, I believe that this is the first of two books > submitted in 1837. The first one (above )does not have the > Certificate/Statement on the film, but the second one (Piece 2836, > NorthShields, Secession Church, Norfolk St, 1813-1837) does, and it > states two books were submitted which together cover 1783- 1837 though > the entries in Piece 2836 start at 1814 (so it was the second book and > Piece 1581 would be the first) > > The signatures on the handwritten certification at the end of both > pieces are by the same three men, so I think its reasonable to assume > its the same church/congregation for both. > > Can anyone shed any light on the term "apsceate" please? Does it > indicate a change (though maybe just slight) in the religion, perhaps > they were a sub group of the Scotch Church from 1814 onwards? > > tch! The longer I do this stuff the more I realise that there is SO > much I just have no idea about! > > > Thanks > > -- > Tickettyboo Hello- I am also doing research that involves the "South Shields Apsceate Church" and baptisms that took place there in the late 1790s- early 1800s- I think more info is to be gleaned if you search for the "Scotch Church" which is what I am going to do shortly. To be fair- even though there is a "great big river" between N. and S. Shields- I have just read that back then the river could be forded (crossed) at low tide...don't know if that helps at all- 'just thought it was worth a mention! Good luck with all your research- fascinating aint it?!!! Jane
On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 14:07:59 +1030, Anne Chambers <[email protected]> wrote: >Anne Chambers wrote: >> Charles Ellson wrote: >>> On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 11:32:09 +1030, Anne Chambers <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Anne Sherman wrote: >>>>> Find My Past have a passenger list record for Percy and Aileen Warne leaving Liverpool aboard the >>>>> OXFORDSHIRE heading to Cochin, India on 8 May 1935. They are recorded as being husband and wife with an >>>>> address in Dublin. He is aged 35 (bn abt 1900) and Planter she is aged 30. If this is your Percy >>>>> perhaps he married in Ireland. >>>>> >>>> The address given is "Arona, Clonskeagh, Co.Dublin"- if this was her home, she may have been an O'Connell. >>>> Google gives that address for James John O'Connell in 1918 >>>> >>> That family is in Cork in 1911 :- >>> http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cork/Cork_No__6_Urban/South_Mall/394334/ >>> >> Well - we seem to have identified his wife :) >> Aileen Mary O'Connell - age & everything else fits with the information on the passenger list. >> Shows what joint endeavours and a bit of sleuthing can do. >> >FamilySearch has her birth registration: >Name: Aileen Mary O'Connell >Event Type: Birth >Event Date: Oct - Dec 1905 >Event Place: Kilkenny, Ireland >Registration Quarter and Year: Oct - Dec 1905 >Registration District: Kilkenny >Volume Number: 3 >Page Number: 352 >GS Film number: 101070 , Digital Folder Number: 004193984 , Image Number: 00585 > There doesn't seem to be anything in the probate indexes for England and Wales** for Aileen up to 2006 which hints at either they remained in Ceylon/Sri Lanka or could have returned to Ireland. The probate indexes for the Irish Republic from 1923 to 1982 are here :- http://www.cigo.ie/httpwww.cigo.iewills.html as 1 PDF for each year so put the kettle on while each downloads. ;-) That page also mentions later wills going into the National Archives when over 20 years old and being indexed therein. While you're looking for Percy and Eileen, I'll be looking for my grandmother's cousin as I hadn't seen that info before. ** For first time users - in "Find a Will" in probatesearch.service.gov.uk once you get a page found for a surname/year you can step forward/backward by year or page without having to re-enter the year again.
On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 11:32:09 +1030, Anne Chambers <[email protected]> wrote: >Anne Sherman wrote: >> Find My Past have a passenger list record for Percy and Aileen Warne leaving Liverpool aboard the OXFORDSHIRE heading to Cochin, India on 8 May 1935. They are recorded as being husband and wife with an address in Dublin. He is aged 35 (bn abt 1900) and Planter she is aged 30. If this is your Percy perhaps he married in Ireland. >> >The address given is "Arona, Clonskeagh, Co.Dublin"- if this was her home, she may have been an O'Connell. >Google gives that address for James John O'Connell in 1918 > That family is in Cork in 1911 :- http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cork/Cork_No__6_Urban/South_Mall/394334/
On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 16:24:51 -0800 (PST), John Watt <[email protected]> wrote: >On Friday, 16 January 2015 06:50:16 UTC+10, Charles Ellson wrote: > >> Their last place of permanent residence in 1935 is shown as "other >> parts of the Empire" which hints at a possible Ceylon marriage. > >How/where did you find "last place of permanent residence" ????????????? > It's on the right hand side of his entry in the passenger list image in Ancestry.
I just don't have the words to express my thanks at all the work you all have done to find all that information - the only item still unfound is the marriage of PERCY EDWARD WARNE to Eileen Mary O'Connell !!!!!!!!! Again, I'm VERY grateful. Jock.
On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 03:29:40 -0800 (PST), Anne Sherman <[email protected]> wrote: >Find My Past have a passenger list record for Percy and Aileen Warne leaving >Liverpool aboard the OXFORDSHIRE heading to Cochin, India on 8 May >1935. They are recorded as being husband and wife with an address in >Dublin. He is aged 35 (bn abt 1900) and Planter she is aged 30. If >this is your Percy perhaps he married in Ireland. > There is no matching marriage (Percy WARNE to Aileen or variants) in the Irish indexes or in England and Wales but that still leaves Northern Ireland or Ceylon (and elsewhere) for checking. Their last place of permanent residence in 1935 is shown as "other parts of the Empire" which hints at a possible Ceylon marriage.
On 15/01/2015 00:10, John Watt wrote: > On Wednesday, 14 January 2015 15:49:26 UTC+10, Charles Ellson wrote: >> On Tue, 13 Jan 2015 19:46:27 -0800 (PST), John Watt >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Percy was born 30 April 1892 in Brighton. I know that he served as an officer >>> in WW1 in the then new Royal Flying Corp. Family lore says that he >>> married an Irish girl, but WHO and WHERE ? Can anyone help, please >>> ??? >>> >> The closest to Brighton looks like a marriage to >> Norah ATKIN, Surrey SE, MAR 1938 >> BUT if he was in France and married in a local church then there might >> only be French records for such a marriage. Otherwise there are about >> ten other marriages including his middle initial in England and Wales >> from 1913 to 1934. There is a 1938 marriage in Medway district to a >> Mary G MOOREY but she seems to have a matching birth index entry there >> in 1910 and a 1911 census entry with no hint of Ireland in the family. >> >> There is no match for his name (with or without the H) in the Irish >> marriage indexes. >> >> Do you know who registered his death ? > > > > On Wednesday, 14 January 2015 15:49:26 UTC+10, Charles Ellson wrote: >> On Tue, 13 Jan 2015 19:46:27 -0800 (PST), John Watt >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Percy was born 30 April 1892 in Brighton. I know that he served as an officer >>> in WW1 in the then new Royal Flying Corp. Family lore says that he >>> married an Irish girl, but WHO and WHERE ? Can anyone help, please >>> ??? >>> >> The closest to Brighton looks like a marriage to >> Norah ATKIN, Surrey SE, MAR 1938 >> BUT if he was in France and married in a local church then there might >> only be French records for such a marriage. Otherwise there are about >> ten other marriages including his middle initial in England and Wales >> from 1913 to 1934. There is a 1938 marriage in Medway district to a >> Mary G MOOREY but she seems to have a matching birth index entry there >> in 1910 and a 1911 census entry with no hint of Ireland in the family. >> >> There is no match for his name (with or without the H) in the Irish >> marriage indexes. >> >> Do you know who registered his death ? > > No, I'm sorry, I don't know any more than that about him (his marriage/children/death). So anything provable at all will be most welcome > There is this possible death record.. Name:Percy H Stevens Birth Date: abt 1892 Date of Registration: Jun 1945 Age at Death:53 Registration district: Brighton Inferred County:Sussex Volume:2b Page: 325
On Friday, 16 January 2015 06:50:16 UTC+10, Charles Ellson wrote: > Their last place of permanent residence in 1935 is shown as "other > parts of the Empire" which hints at a possible Ceylon marriage. How/where did you find "last place of permanent residence" ?????????????
"John Watt" wrote in message news:[email protected] I put you all on to a wrong path ! The fellow I'm looking for was actually PERCY EDWARD WARNE who was born 19 Jul 1899 at 1 North Terrace, Worthing, SSX, ENG. What I can't find anywhere is his death or marriage date/spouse, please? I couldn't find any mention of him in The Times, London Gazette or on public/private trees on Ancestry. Regards Kate Sydney, Australia
Anne Chambers wrote: > Anne Chambers wrote: >> John Watt wrote: >>> I put you all on to a wrong path ! The fellow I'm looking for was actually PERCY EDWARD WARNE who was born >>> 19 Jul 1899 at 1 North Terrace, Worthing, SSX, ENG. >>> >>> What I can't find anywhere is his death or marriage date/spouse, please? >>> >> Try Indian records - Ancestry's Incoming Passengers to the UK Records show: >> Percy Edward Warne 24 abt 1899 3 Nov 1923 Australia London, England >> Percy Edward Warne 31 abt 1899 15 May 1930 Yokohama, Japan London, England >> >> In each case his occupation is shown as "Planter" and in the 1923 record, his residence is given as "India" >> > This might be of interest too > http://indiankanoon.org/doc/1676332/ > > and it looks as though his service record is at the National Archives > http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/Details/AssetMain?iaid=C12719651 > His service record shows his next of kin as Mrs M E Warne (mother) so he married after 1919. -- Anne Chambers South Australia anne dot chambers at bigpond dot com