On 03/02/2015 3:22 AM, Graeme Wall wrote: > On 02/02/2015 22:35, Charles Ellson wrote: >> On Mon, 02 Feb 2015 20:32:50 +0000, Graeme Wall >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> On 02/02/2015 20:21, hownhelcymru wrote: >>>> "It's a Catholic practice but not necessarily widespread. When you are >>>> baptised you get a baptismal (saint's) name that may or may not be one >>>> of your existing names. In some cases that name may get adopted as >>>> part >>>> of the person's name in later life. I've no idea how common a practice >>>> it is but it may explain why someone with no middle name at birth >>>> acquires one in later life." >>>> >>>> As a life long catholic with scottish and irish roots I have not >>>> come across this practice. [That is why I asked whether this was a >>>> peculiarly English custom] >>>> >>>> I have not come across an instance of a person having a different >>>> baptismal name to his/ her registered name. >>>> >>>> A saint's name, chosen at Confirmation, has been added to secular >>>> documentation in some instances, but not as a rule. >>>> Thank you for the information >>>> >>>> Helenor Jones >>>> >>> >>> I thought it was an Irish practice, the Catholic side of my family comes >>> from Cork. >>> >> The usual version I've encountered in the few RC cases I've come >> across in England and Scotland is a child being registered with their >> first name and the middle name being the one added at baptism but not >> retrospectively added to their birth registration. >> > > But could appear on the marriage certificate. I seem to have caused > some confusion, I never meant that the name would be added to the birth > certificate retrospectively. Baptismal and/or confirmation names could > be added to a person's full name in later life, especially if they are > devout. > My maternal grandfather's maternal first cousin (confusing?) was registered as "Charles Kirkland X" (his dad's first name plus his paternal grandmother's family name). I had a hard time finding the family in the census because he was known as "Widmer". On his marriage licence he gave his name as Charles Widmer Nelles Kirkland X. I've no idea where the other names came from; his dad was C of E and his mother Presbyterian. His dad's side of the family didn't seem particularly devout, just odd. AW

On 02/02/2015 22:35, Ann Watson wrote: > On 02/02/2015 3:21 PM, hownhelcymru wrote: >> "It's a Catholic practice but not necessarily widespread. When you are >> baptised you get a baptismal (saint's) name that may or may not be one >> of your existing names. In some cases that name may get adopted as part >> of the person's name in later life. I've no idea how common a practice >> it is but it may explain why someone with no middle name at birth >> acquires one in later life." >> >> As a life long catholic with scottish and irish roots I have not come >> across this practice. [That is why I asked whether this was a >> peculiarly English custom] >> >> I have not come across an instance of a person having a different >> baptismal name to his/ her registered name. >> >> A saint's name, chosen at Confirmation, has been added to secular >> documentation in some instances, but not as a rule. >> Thank you for the information > > I gather if one of your registered names is a already a saint's name or > a variation thereof, you don't need one added at baptism? > Not necessarily :-) I didn't get one at baptism but then I've got two saints names already! However I did at Confirmation. -- Graeme Wall This account not read, substitute trains for rail. Railway Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail>

On 02/02/2015 22:35, Charles Ellson wrote: > On Mon, 02 Feb 2015 20:32:50 +0000, Graeme Wall > <[email protected]> wrote: > >> On 02/02/2015 20:21, hownhelcymru wrote: >>> "It's a Catholic practice but not necessarily widespread. When you are >>> baptised you get a baptismal (saint's) name that may or may not be one >>> of your existing names. In some cases that name may get adopted as part >>> of the person's name in later life. I've no idea how common a practice >>> it is but it may explain why someone with no middle name at birth >>> acquires one in later life." >>> >>> As a life long catholic with scottish and irish roots I have not come across this practice. [That is why I asked whether this was a peculiarly English custom] >>> >>> I have not come across an instance of a person having a different baptismal name to his/ her registered name. >>> >>> A saint's name, chosen at Confirmation, has been added to secular documentation in some instances, but not as a rule. >>> Thank you for the information >>> >>> Helenor Jones >>> >> >> I thought it was an Irish practice, the Catholic side of my family comes >>from Cork. >> > The usual version I've encountered in the few RC cases I've come > across in England and Scotland is a child being registered with their > first name and the middle name being the one added at baptism but not > retrospectively added to their birth registration. > But could appear on the marriage certificate. I seem to have caused some confusion, I never meant that the name would be added to the birth certificate retrospectively. Baptismal and/or confirmation names could be added to a person's full name in later life, especially if they are devout. -- Graeme Wall This account not read, substitute trains for rail. Railway Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail>

On Mon, 02 Feb 2015 20:32:50 +0000, Graeme Wall <[email protected]> wrote: >On 02/02/2015 20:21, hownhelcymru wrote: >> "It's a Catholic practice but not necessarily widespread. When you are >> baptised you get a baptismal (saint's) name that may or may not be one >> of your existing names. In some cases that name may get adopted as part >> of the person's name in later life. I've no idea how common a practice >> it is but it may explain why someone with no middle name at birth >> acquires one in later life." >> >> As a life long catholic with scottish and irish roots I have not come across this practice. [That is why I asked whether this was a peculiarly English custom] >> >> I have not come across an instance of a person having a different baptismal name to his/ her registered name. >> >> A saint's name, chosen at Confirmation, has been added to secular documentation in some instances, but not as a rule. >> Thank you for the information >> >> Helenor Jones >> > >I thought it was an Irish practice, the Catholic side of my family comes >from Cork. > The usual version I've encountered in the few RC cases I've come across in England and Scotland is a child being registered with their first name and the middle name being the one added at baptism but not retrospectively added to their birth registration.

On 02/02/2015 20:21, hownhelcymru wrote: > "It's a Catholic practice but not necessarily widespread. When you are > baptised you get a baptismal (saint's) name that may or may not be one > of your existing names. In some cases that name may get adopted as part > of the person's name in later life. I've no idea how common a practice > it is but it may explain why someone with no middle name at birth > acquires one in later life." > > As a life long catholic with scottish and irish roots I have not come across this practice. [That is why I asked whether this was a peculiarly English custom] > > I have not come across an instance of a person having a different baptismal name to his/ her registered name. > > A saint's name, chosen at Confirmation, has been added to secular documentation in some instances, but not as a rule. > Thank you for the information > > Helenor Jones > I thought it was an Irish practice, the Catholic side of my family comes from Cork. -- Graeme Wall This account not read, substitute trains for rail. Railway Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail>

On 02/02/2015 3:21 PM, hownhelcymru wrote: > "It's a Catholic practice but not necessarily widespread. When you are > baptised you get a baptismal (saint's) name that may or may not be one > of your existing names. In some cases that name may get adopted as part > of the person's name in later life. I've no idea how common a practice > it is but it may explain why someone with no middle name at birth > acquires one in later life." > > As a life long catholic with scottish and irish roots I have not come across this practice. [That is why I asked whether this was a peculiarly English custom] > > I have not come across an instance of a person having a different baptismal name to his/ her registered name. > > A saint's name, chosen at Confirmation, has been added to secular documentation in some instances, but not as a rule. > Thank you for the information I gather if one of your registered names is a already a saint's name or a variation thereof, you don't need one added at baptism? AW

On 02/02/2015 13:54, Graeme Wall wrote: > There's a brief history of the Liverpool Sheltering Homes at > <http://www.liv.ac.uk/library/sca/colldescs/lsh.html> > > However it seems to have concentrated on local orphans and destitute > children. As a follow up, they would take children from other parts of the country for onward travel to Canada but charged £10.00 (Sorry, £10/0/0) per child. -- Graeme Wall This account not read, substitute trains for rail. Railway Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail>

On 02/02/2015 13:34, Ann Watson wrote: > On 02/02/2015 4:52 AM, Jenny M Benson wrote: >> On 01/02/2015 07:41, Bob Campbell via wrote: >>> that's a distinct possibility I had not considered. >>> Age is about right. >>> I has been a number of years since I accessed Canadian records >>> especially those for the home children. >>> Are the arriving passenger lists now available online? >>> A later marriage for her perhaps? >>> An entry in the Canada 1921 census as she would then be 19? >> >> The little information I had came from an outgoing Passenger List on >> FMP. I don't have ready access to Canadian records. >> > The Canadian immigrantion record on ancestry.ca isn't particularly > helpful other than indicating the group of children were originally > destined for Knowlton, P.Q. > > I'll try to look through the 1921 census records later there but they > aren't very well indexed. > > AW There's a brief history of the Liverpool Sheltering Homes at <http://www.liv.ac.uk/library/sca/colldescs/lsh.html> However it seems to have concentrated on local orphans and destitute children. More at <http://canadianbritishhomechildren.weebly.com/louisa-birt---6000-emigrated.html> -- Graeme Wall This account not read, substitute trains for rail. Railway Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail>

"It's a Catholic practice but not necessarily widespread. When you are baptised you get a baptismal (saint's) name that may or may not be one of your existing names. In some cases that name may get adopted as part of the person's name in later life. I've no idea how common a practice it is but it may explain why someone with no middle name at birth acquires one in later life." As a life long catholic with scottish and irish roots I have not come across this practice. [That is why I asked whether this was a peculiarly English custom] I have not come across an instance of a person having a different baptismal name to his/ her registered name. A saint's name, chosen at Confirmation, has been added to secular documentation in some instances, but not as a rule. Thank you for the information Helenor Jones

On 01/02/2015 07:41, Bob Campbell via wrote: > that's a distinct possibility I had not considered. > Age is about right. > I has been a number of years since I accessed Canadian records > especially those for the home children. > Are the arriving passenger lists now available online? > A later marriage for her perhaps? > An entry in the Canada 1921 census as she would then be 19? The little information I had came from an outgoing Passenger List on FMP. I don't have ready access to Canadian records. -- Jenny M Benson

On 02/02/2015 4:52 AM, Jenny M Benson wrote: > On 01/02/2015 07:41, Bob Campbell via wrote: >> that's a distinct possibility I had not considered. >> Age is about right. >> I has been a number of years since I accessed Canadian records >> especially those for the home children. >> Are the arriving passenger lists now available online? >> A later marriage for her perhaps? >> An entry in the Canada 1921 census as she would then be 19? > > The little information I had came from an outgoing Passenger List on > FMP. I don't have ready access to Canadian records. > The Canadian immigrantion record on ancestry.ca isn't particularly helpful other than indicating the group of children were originally destined for Knowlton, P.Q. I'll try to look through the 1921 census records later there but they aren't very well indexed. AW

This is the info the Archives of Canada has for her: http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/immigration/immigration-records/home-children-1869-1930/immigration-records/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=85702& On 01/02/2015 2:41 AM, Bob Campbell via wrote: > Jenny, > that's a distinct possibility I had not considered. > Age is about right. > I has been a number of years since I accessed Canadian records > especially those for the home children. > Are the arriving passenger lists now available online? > A later marriage for her perhaps? > An entry in the Canada 1921 census as she would then be 19? > cheers > Bob > > > -----Original Message----- From: Jenny M Benson > Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2015 11:09 PM eAny chance she was the Violet Campbell, aged 11, who was shipped out to > Canada in 1913 aboard the Corsican? The large number of unaccompanied > (ie not with family) children suggests it was taking "British Home > Children" (I think they were called that) to Quebec. A very likely > outcome for a child in orphanage at that time. >

On Sun, 01 Feb 2015 16:29:42 +0000, Graeme Wall <[email protected]> wrote: >On 01/02/2015 15:37, cecilia wrote: >>> On 01/02/2015 14:07, hownhelcymru wrote: >>>> "There are quite a few death's for Violet Geary listed on Ancestry. Most >>>> of them have a middle name but as a Catholic (presumably) she may have >>>> adopted her baptismal name" >>>> Could you explain this please? >>>> Is this an English practice? >>>> Helenor Jones >> >> Graeme Wall <[email protected]> wrote: >>> It's a Catholic practice but not necessarily widespread. When you are >>> baptised you get a baptismal (saint's) name that may or may not be one >>> of your existing names. In some cases that name may get adopted as part >>> of the person's name in later life. I've no idea how common a practice >>> it is > I've found it to be fairly common when a child has the same first name as their parent although often a case of being known by the middle name but documented by the first or first and middle names. >>> but it may explain why someone with no middle name at birth >>> acquires one in later life. >> >> http://www.deedpoll.org.uk/CanABirthCertificateBeChanged.html >> explains whwn and how one can change the information that appears on a >> birth certificate in the different parts of the UK: England and Wales, >> Scotland, Northern Ireland. >> > >In this case she wouldn't necessarily have changed her birth certificate >but when she came to be married she could have used it as her full name >hence causing confusion to researchers.

On, 01 Feb. 2015 16:02:20 -0500, "Percival P. Cassidy" <[email protected]> wrote: >On 02/01/2015 09:52 AM, Graeme Wall wrote: > >>> "There are quite a few death's for Violet Geary listed on Ancestry. Most >>> of them have a middle name but as a Catholic (presumably) she may have >>> adopted her baptismal name" >>> >>> Could you explain this please? >>> >>> Is this an English practice? > >> It's a Catholic practice but not necessarily widespread. When you are >> baptised you get a baptismal (saint's) name that may or may not be one >> of your existing names. In some cases that name may get adopted as part >> of the person's name in later life. I've no idea how common a practice >> it is but it may explain why someone with no middle name at birth >> acquires one in later life. > >Similar in Eastern Orthodox practice: children are usually given the >name of a saint. Those received into the Orthodox church later in life >(by chrismation/"Confirmation") *may* add the name of a saint to their >original name(s). My 19th century ancestors in Prussia customarily gave every daughter the name of, apparently, their favorite saint so there might be two or more Annas in a family; they were sorted out by a middle name. The first US generation generally had dropped the custom of naming by saints. There were a few but not many families that also named sons in the same pattern. -- Don [email protected]

Jenny, that's a distinct possibility I had not considered. Age is about right. I has been a number of years since I accessed Canadian records especially those for the home children. Are the arriving passenger lists now available online? A later marriage for her perhaps? An entry in the Canada 1921 census as she would then be 19? cheers Bob -----Original Message----- From: Jenny M Benson Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2015 11:09 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: looking for a Violet GEARY death after 1969 On 30/01/2015 16:15, Bob Campbell via wrote: > > > > > Subject: looking for a Violet GEARY death registered in Surrey post > 1980 to compare birthdates > > I am trying to track down the last possible location for a Violet > GEARY. What I do know about Violet IF she is mine........ born Violet > CAMPBELL at Woolwich 12th July 1901 Shown in the 1911 census as a 9 > year old at a Catholic Orphanage at Croydon Surrey. by the process of > elimination there is a POSSIBLE marriage to Arthur W.C GEARY > registered in the June 1/4 of 1919 by which time she would be 17 the > couple had 5 children between 1920 and 1931 all born at Croydon. The > registration of her husband Arthur William C. GEARY's death in 1969 > at Surrey S.E. No "most likely death registered for Violet any where > on FreeBMD after 1969 , and likewise no second marriage. Any help > would be appreciated > Any chance she was the Violet Campbell, aged 11, who was shipped out to Canada in 1913 aboard the Corsican? The large number of unaccompanied (ie not with family) children suggests it was taking "British Home Children" (I think they were called that) to Quebec. A very likely outcome for a child in orphanage at that time. -- Jenny M Benson

On 01/02/2015 15:37, cecilia wrote: >> On 01/02/2015 14:07, hownhelcymru wrote: >>> "There are quite a few death's for Violet Geary listed on Ancestry. Most >>> of them have a middle name but as a Catholic (presumably) she may have >>> adopted her baptismal name" >>> Could you explain this please? >>> Is this an English practice? >>> Helenor Jones > > Graeme Wall <[email protected]> wrote: >> It's a Catholic practice but not necessarily widespread. When you are >> baptised you get a baptismal (saint's) name that may or may not be one >> of your existing names. In some cases that name may get adopted as part >> of the person's name in later life. I've no idea how common a practice >> it is but it may explain why someone with no middle name at birth >> acquires one in later life. > > http://www.deedpoll.org.uk/CanABirthCertificateBeChanged.html > explains whwn and how one can change the information that appears on a > birth certificate in the different parts of the UK: England and Wales, > Scotland, Northern Ireland. > In this case she wouldn't necessarily have changed her birth certificate but when she came to be married she could have used it as her full name hence causing confusion to researchers. -- Graeme Wall This account not read, substitute trains for rail. Railway Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail>

On 02/01/2015 09:52 AM, Graeme Wall wrote: >> "There are quite a few death's for Violet Geary listed on Ancestry. Most >> of them have a middle name but as a Catholic (presumably) she may have >> adopted her baptismal name" >> >> Could you explain this please? >> >> Is this an English practice? > It's a Catholic practice but not necessarily widespread. When you are > baptised you get a baptismal (saint's) name that may or may not be one > of your existing names. In some cases that name may get adopted as part > of the person's name in later life. I've no idea how common a practice > it is but it may explain why someone with no middle name at birth > acquires one in later life. Similar in Eastern Orthodox practice: children are usually given the name of a saint. Those received into the Orthodox church later in life (by chrismation/"Confirmation") *may* add the name of a saint to their original name(s). Perce

>On 01/02/2015 14:07, hownhelcymru wrote: >> "There are quite a few death's for Violet Geary listed on Ancestry. Most >> of them have a middle name but as a Catholic (presumably) she may have >> adopted her baptismal name" >>Could you explain this please? >> Is this an English practice? >> Helenor Jones Graeme Wall <[email protected]> wrote: >It's a Catholic practice but not necessarily widespread. When you are >baptised you get a baptismal (saint's) name that may or may not be one >of your existing names. In some cases that name may get adopted as part >of the person's name in later life. I've no idea how common a practice >it is but it may explain why someone with no middle name at birth >acquires one in later life. http://www.deedpoll.org.uk/CanABirthCertificateBeChanged.html explains whwn and how one can change the information that appears on a birth certificate in the different parts of the UK: England and Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland.

On 01/02/2015 14:07, hownhelcymru wrote: > "There are quite a few death's for Violet Geary listed on Ancestry. Most > of them have a middle name but as a Catholic (presumably) she may have > adopted her baptismal name" > > Could you explain this please? > > Is this an English practice? > > Helenor Jones > It's a Catholic practice but not necessarily widespread. When you are baptised you get a baptismal (saint's) name that may or may not be one of your existing names. In some cases that name may get adopted as part of the person's name in later life. I've no idea how common a practice it is but it may explain why someone with no middle name at birth acquires one in later life. -- Graeme Wall This account not read, substitute trains for rail. Railway Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail>

"There are quite a few death's for Violet Geary listed on Ancestry. Most of them have a middle name but as a Catholic (presumably) she may have adopted her baptismal name" Could you explain this please? Is this an English practice? Helenor Jones