An annulment is also a legal dissolution of a marriage, so it is probably found at the local courthouse just like a divorce. Annulments are usually granted for things such as fraud (not mentioning that you are an axe murderer, unable to have children, being underage and lying about it, giving a phony name, etc.) Also, if the marriage is unconsummated. I know it is legal because a close relative of mine got his marriage dissolved that way. It says that the marriage really didn't take place. Diane Friis > > Question -- isn't annulment only a church (Roman Catholic) rite to undo > an injudicious marriage in the Church's eyes? > If so, then the annulment would only be church registered (and thus > probably not available), but it seems the municipality would have to > have a record of a divorce (or similar legal dissolution) to satisfy the > laws of state. No? > > Interested in learning how it's all accomplished! > > Norman and Elaine > researching DICKEY > rivercountry@draac.com > http://stop.at/Rivercountry

That's alright if you want to disagree. It won't be distructive at all. She knows who he was, she's just been on mainland for the last 12 years. It's clear sailing ahead. I didn't ask for opinions, only help. Judi At 08:31 PM 1/11/00 -0500, libby100@webtv.net wrote: >Hi I am responding to the woman who is searching for information about >her niece to be father.......and what happened to him and where he is >buried as a wedding present. > >I am a bridal consultant and this event is a very emotional one >especially when a father is not there and i am going to give you my >opinion that i think what you want to do by finding this information >would be destructive at that time -- if her mother were to get wind of >your doing this under the guises of a "wedding gift" i do believe you >would be opening a possible can of worms that might create something you >would not want to be involved with.... > >Just my opinion and of course you can certainly do what feels right for >you - I personally think it would be better to wait and search and >present the information after she returns from her honeymoon--- > >i would be willing to search for you as I have helped find birth parents >and missing people as a hobby and love to do it- >if you would like my assistance please contact me and please know i do >not mean to be critical -- i do believe you mean well > >Sincerely Libby > > >

What I can find, yes. Judi At 08:24 PM 1/11/00 EST, SUN2MOON11@aol.com wrote: >Fascinating. Would you be so kind as to post your findings? >Regards, >Beck > >> I'm investigating my soon to be niece-in-laws father. Her mother has kept >> it hush and the daughter only wants to be at peace. John Simion Ho'a shot >> himself _________? > > >

Hi I am responding to the woman who is searching for information about her niece to be father.......and what happened to him and where he is buried as a wedding present. I am a bridal consultant and this event is a very emotional one especially when a father is not there and i am going to give you my opinion that i think what you want to do by finding this information would be destructive at that time -- if her mother were to get wind of your doing this under the guises of a "wedding gift" i do believe you would be opening a possible can of worms that might create something you would not want to be involved with.... Just my opinion and of course you can certainly do what feels right for you - I personally think it would be better to wait and search and present the information after she returns from her honeymoon--- i would be willing to search for you as I have helped find birth parents and missing people as a hobby and love to do it- if you would like my assistance please contact me and please know i do not mean to be critical -- i do believe you mean well Sincerely Libby

I'm investigating my soon to be niece-in-laws father. Her mother has kept it hush and the daughter only wants to be at peace. John Simion Ho'a shot himself _________? The grave is somewhere on the island of Honolulu. If he were alive, he'd be about 40ish is all she can tell me. My gift to her for her wedding, would be just to find his gravesite or a newspaper article stating his death. This is the only information her mother will divulge. She would like to know before she weds on approx. February 17th Thank you so much.

Thanks, life is very busy around here lately. I even have my next mystery I'm working on. I'll post later tonight. Judi At 06:51 PM 1/11/00 -0500, Teresa Silvey wrote: >I didn't know that,but glad to learn-thank you!--- >and--congratulations on soon being official!!!!! >Teresa > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Outsider AngelSpider > To: GEN-UNSOLVED-MYSTERIES-L@rootsweb.com > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 6:29 PM > Subject: Re: [GEN-UNSOLVED-MYSTERIES] Re: Mystery Marriage etc. > > > Annulments aren't used just in the Catholic church, they are a legal > proceeding. Any state and anywhere. > > At 04:18 PM 1/11/00 -0500, Teresa Silvey wrote: > >I'm not sure how it was years ago.But even if you're married in the > Catholic Church,you can get a regular,legal divorce.However,it is not > recognized by the Church,and believed not recognized by God.If you are > Catholic,and you marry by law,but not in the Church,then the Church does > not recognize you as married.When I married the 1st time,it was by Justice > of Peace.But when I divorced,I was still told I needed an annulment in the > Church for some reason.I don't know if it's a Catholic law that changed > since I was in school,or what---but I wasn't taught it that way in the > Catholic schools I went to. > >Are you asking if annulment is only a religious rite?I think so.You have > to show reasons that the Church accepts saying that the marriage was wrong > in God's eyes from the beginning,such as adultery,abuse,dishonesty about > one's past,etc. > >I think that the Church would be the only place to find such a record.But > I have had no problem getting records of my ancestors from the > Church---they are available if they still exist. > >Let me know if you want me to try to find out more info on this for you.My > Dad did mention there was a time in the 40's and 50's when the Church > allowed more annulments than before. > >Teresa > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: - - - > > To: GEN-UNSOLVED-MYSTERIES-L@rootsweb.com > > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 3:47 PM > > Subject: [GEN-UNSOLVED-MYSTERIES] Re: Mystery Marriage etc. > > > > > > Question -- isn't annulment only a church (Roman Catholic) rite to undo > > an injudicious marriage in the Church's eyes? > > If so, then the annulment would only be church registered (and thus > > probably not available), but it seems the municipality would have to > > have a record of a divorce (or similar legal dissolution) to satisfy the > > laws of state. No? > > > > Interested in learning how it's all accomplished! > > > > > > Norman and Elaine > > researching DICKEY > > rivercountry@draac.com > > http://stop.at/Rivercountry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

I didn't know that,but glad to learn-thank you!--- and--congratulations on soon being official!!!!! Teresa ----- Original Message ----- From: Outsider AngelSpider To: GEN-UNSOLVED-MYSTERIES-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 6:29 PM Subject: Re: [GEN-UNSOLVED-MYSTERIES] Re: Mystery Marriage etc. Annulments aren't used just in the Catholic church, they are a legal proceeding. Any state and anywhere. At 04:18 PM 1/11/00 -0500, Teresa Silvey wrote: >I'm not sure how it was years ago.But even if you're married in the Catholic Church,you can get a regular,legal divorce.However,it is not recognized by the Church,and believed not recognized by God.If you are Catholic,and you marry by law,but not in the Church,then the Church does not recognize you as married.When I married the 1st time,it was by Justice of Peace.But when I divorced,I was still told I needed an annulment in the Church for some reason.I don't know if it's a Catholic law that changed since I was in school,or what---but I wasn't taught it that way in the Catholic schools I went to. >Are you asking if annulment is only a religious rite?I think so.You have to show reasons that the Church accepts saying that the marriage was wrong in God's eyes from the beginning,such as adultery,abuse,dishonesty about one's past,etc. >I think that the Church would be the only place to find such a record.But I have had no problem getting records of my ancestors from the Church---they are available if they still exist. >Let me know if you want me to try to find out more info on this for you.My Dad did mention there was a time in the 40's and 50's when the Church allowed more annulments than before. >Teresa > ----- Original Message ----- > From: - - - > To: GEN-UNSOLVED-MYSTERIES-L@rootsweb.com > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 3:47 PM > Subject: [GEN-UNSOLVED-MYSTERIES] Re: Mystery Marriage etc. > > > Question -- isn't annulment only a church (Roman Catholic) rite to undo > an injudicious marriage in the Church's eyes? > If so, then the annulment would only be church registered (and thus > probably not available), but it seems the municipality would have to > have a record of a divorce (or similar legal dissolution) to satisfy the > laws of state. No? > > Interested in learning how it's all accomplished! > > > Norman and Elaine > researching DICKEY > rivercountry@draac.com > http://stop.at/Rivercountry > > > > >

I think the whole point here is the person is trying to find documentation of the annulment, not our verying opinions on the subject matter. I, as an Archivist, have access to these kinds of records. They will be in one of 2 places, legal depositories, such as State Archives or County ones. Or in the churchs archives where the motion was suppose to have happened. There will be some written record, somewhere. BUT sometimes it's easier to get a tooth pulled then to find these documents. Judi - Archivist in training, one more term and I'm official, yippee At 04:14 PM 1/11/00 -0600, WENDY wrote: >Annulment can be both legal as well as religious. It is much less common >as a civil action, most marriages (recognized by civil law) would >require a divorce. Under some circumstances, it would be allowed on >civil grounds, and should then be listed as a civil action. In civil >terms, annulment indicates that the law never recognized that marriage >as having existed, where divorce is the civil term for a marriage that >existed, but is now dissolved by legal action. >Under civil rules, then, anyone of any church MAY have an annulment, >provided that the laws OF THAT LOCALITY AND TIME have been met. >The Catholic church does not sanction divorce by their canon. Thus a >divorced person cannot be married in the Church, and they technically >would not acknowledge such a marriage. The parties can be married in the >church only if an religious annulment is granted. >My exhusband's 2nd wife was Catholic, and sought an annulment for his/my >marriage. Despite his and my contention that we had been married in a >church of a different faith, lived together for over 2 yrs, but had no >children, they found grounds for the action under their definition, and >granted it. A year after their marriage in the Church, they divorced. >Don't know what she has done since then! I suspect that the Church, like >civil law, changes depending on the time involved. >Wendy > > >

Annulments aren't used just in the Catholic church, they are a legal proceeding. Any state and anywhere. At 04:18 PM 1/11/00 -0500, Teresa Silvey wrote: >I'm not sure how it was years ago.But even if you're married in the Catholic Church,you can get a regular,legal divorce.However,it is not recognized by the Church,and believed not recognized by God.If you are Catholic,and you marry by law,but not in the Church,then the Church does not recognize you as married.When I married the 1st time,it was by Justice of Peace.But when I divorced,I was still told I needed an annulment in the Church for some reason.I don't know if it's a Catholic law that changed since I was in school,or what---but I wasn't taught it that way in the Catholic schools I went to. >Are you asking if annulment is only a religious rite?I think so.You have to show reasons that the Church accepts saying that the marriage was wrong in God's eyes from the beginning,such as adultery,abuse,dishonesty about one's past,etc. >I think that the Church would be the only place to find such a record.But I have had no problem getting records of my ancestors from the Church---they are available if they still exist. >Let me know if you want me to try to find out more info on this for you.My Dad did mention there was a time in the 40's and 50's when the Church allowed more annulments than before. >Teresa > ----- Original Message ----- > From: - - - > To: GEN-UNSOLVED-MYSTERIES-L@rootsweb.com > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 3:47 PM > Subject: [GEN-UNSOLVED-MYSTERIES] Re: Mystery Marriage etc. > > > Question -- isn't annulment only a church (Roman Catholic) rite to undo > an injudicious marriage in the Church's eyes? > If so, then the annulment would only be church registered (and thus > probably not available), but it seems the municipality would have to > have a record of a divorce (or similar legal dissolution) to satisfy the > laws of state. No? > > Interested in learning how it's all accomplished! > > > Norman and Elaine > researching DICKEY > rivercountry@draac.com > http://stop.at/Rivercountry > > > > >

-----Original Message----- From: - - - <Rivercountry@webtv.net> To: GEN-UNSOLVED-MYSTERIES-L@rootsweb.com <GEN-UNSOLVED-MYSTERIES-L@rootsweb.com> Date: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 3:54 PM Subject: [GEN-UNSOLVED-MYSTERIES] Re: Mystery Marriage etc. Question -- isn't annulment only a church (Roman Catholic) rite to undo an injudicious marriage in the Church's eyes? If so, then the annulment would only be church registered (and thus probably not available), but it seems the municipality would have to have a record of a divorce (or similar legal dissolution) to satisfy the laws of state. No? Interested in learning how it's all accomplished! Norman and Elaine researching DICKEY rivercountry@draac.com http://stop.at/Rivercountry Annulment is also a civil procedure within the laws of a state. Martha

Annulment can be both legal as well as religious. It is much less common as a civil action, most marriages (recognized by civil law) would require a divorce. Under some circumstances, it would be allowed on civil grounds, and should then be listed as a civil action. In civil terms, annulment indicates that the law never recognized that marriage as having existed, where divorce is the civil term for a marriage that existed, but is now dissolved by legal action. Under civil rules, then, anyone of any church MAY have an annulment, provided that the laws OF THAT LOCALITY AND TIME have been met. The Catholic church does not sanction divorce by their canon. Thus a divorced person cannot be married in the Church, and they technically would not acknowledge such a marriage. The parties can be married in the church only if an religious annulment is granted. My exhusband's 2nd wife was Catholic, and sought an annulment for his/my marriage. Despite his and my contention that we had been married in a church of a different faith, lived together for over 2 yrs, but had no children, they found grounds for the action under their definition, and granted it. A year after their marriage in the Church, they divorced. Don't know what she has done since then! I suspect that the Church, like civil law, changes depending on the time involved. Wendy

An annulment can be done in civil court. It can be for a variety of reasons and should be on record in the county clerks office of the county where it was obtained.

It may be on file with the state,I'm not sure----but as for consummation,well,I had 3 children...........I do however remember that from a lesson,and may have been something from long ago.The Church accepted other things later. Teresa ----- Original Message ----- From: Outsider AngelSpider To: GEN-UNSOLVED-MYSTERIES-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 3:57 PM Subject: Re: [GEN-UNSOLVED-MYSTERIES] Re: Mystery Marriage etc. No an annulment is also a legal decree, only enforcible if the marriage has not been consummated. It will be on file in the state it was done in Judi At 03:47 PM 1/11/00 -0500, - - - wrote: >Question -- isn't annulment only a church (Roman Catholic) rite to undo >an injudicious marriage in the Church's eyes? >If so, then the annulment would only be church registered (and thus >probably not available), but it seems the municipality would have to >have a record of a divorce (or similar legal dissolution) to satisfy the >laws of state. No? > >Interested in learning how it's all accomplished! > > >Norman and Elaine >researching DICKEY >rivercountry@draac.com >http://stop.at/Rivercountry > > >

I'm not sure how it was years ago.But even if you're married in the Catholic Church,you can get a regular,legal divorce.However,it is not recognized by the Church,and believed not recognized by God.If you are Catholic,and you marry by law,but not in the Church,then the Church does not recognize you as married.When I married the 1st time,it was by Justice of Peace.But when I divorced,I was still told I needed an annulment in the Church for some reason.I don't know if it's a Catholic law that changed since I was in school,or what---but I wasn't taught it that way in the Catholic schools I went to. Are you asking if annulment is only a religious rite?I think so.You have to show reasons that the Church accepts saying that the marriage was wrong in God's eyes from the beginning,such as adultery,abuse,dishonesty about one's past,etc. I think that the Church would be the only place to find such a record.But I have had no problem getting records of my ancestors from the Church---they are available if they still exist. Let me know if you want me to try to find out more info on this for you.My Dad did mention there was a time in the 40's and 50's when the Church allowed more annulments than before. Teresa ----- Original Message ----- From: - - - To: GEN-UNSOLVED-MYSTERIES-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 3:47 PM Subject: [GEN-UNSOLVED-MYSTERIES] Re: Mystery Marriage etc. Question -- isn't annulment only a church (Roman Catholic) rite to undo an injudicious marriage in the Church's eyes? If so, then the annulment would only be church registered (and thus probably not available), but it seems the municipality would have to have a record of a divorce (or similar legal dissolution) to satisfy the laws of state. No? Interested in learning how it's all accomplished! Norman and Elaine researching DICKEY rivercountry@draac.com http://stop.at/Rivercountry

No an annulment is also a legal decree, only enforcible if the marriage has not been consummated. It will be on file in the state it was done in Judi At 03:47 PM 1/11/00 -0500, - - - wrote: >Question -- isn't annulment only a church (Roman Catholic) rite to undo >an injudicious marriage in the Church's eyes? >If so, then the annulment would only be church registered (and thus >probably not available), but it seems the municipality would have to >have a record of a divorce (or similar legal dissolution) to satisfy the >laws of state. No? > >Interested in learning how it's all accomplished! > > >Norman and Elaine >researching DICKEY >rivercountry@draac.com >http://stop.at/Rivercountry > > >

Question -- isn't annulment only a church (Roman Catholic) rite to undo an injudicious marriage in the Church's eyes? If so, then the annulment would only be church registered (and thus probably not available), but it seems the municipality would have to have a record of a divorce (or similar legal dissolution) to satisfy the laws of state. No? Interested in learning how it's all accomplished! Norman and Elaine researching DICKEY rivercountry@draac.com http://stop.at/Rivercountry

Fascinating. Would you be so kind as to post your findings? Regards, Beck > I'm investigating my soon to be niece-in-laws father. Her mother has kept > it hush and the daughter only wants to be at peace. John Simion Ho'a shot > himself _________?

Not necessarily. My Great Great Grandmother married a man who turned out to be a bigamist. I have the documents showing a legal annulment and the sentence set down for her husband. These were dated in the mid to late1800's. Deb

This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------690BED1DCF80A662072E3D58 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------690BED1DCF80A662072E3D58 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Message-ID: <38776818.CCC29C0B@worldnet.att.net> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2000 08:38:48 -0800 From: Norma Hermocillo <ms.marple@worldnet.att.net> Reply-To: ms.marple@worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-WNS5.0 (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "GEN-UNSOLVED-MYSTERIES-D-request@rootsweb.com" <GEN-UNSOLVED-MYSTERIES-D-request@rootsweb.com> Subject: Mystery Marriage and Annullment Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yesterday I received a marriage certificate for my children's grandparents that I requested almost a year ago. This certificate shows that their grandmother's first marriage was annulled! How would I go about locating the court record for this annullment? I do not know when or where this first marriage took place, but since she was only 24 years old at the time of her second marriage, I can estimate the date range fairly accurately. She was born in California and her second marriage was also in California, so I am assuming that the annullment also occurred in California. Does anyone have any idea how I can locate the court records for this annullment? Norma Jean Hermocillo --------------690BED1DCF80A662072E3D58--

It seems strange that someone in the 1880's was being forced to have names changed as ordered by the King, I would think that would have had to go back much further. Did you mean they were married in England? Do you know where the couple settled when they first came to the US? That might be the place to start searching Naturalization Records. I assume you have done the usual death certificates, obituaries, mortuary records, etc. on the couple. Were they of a religion that kept information on baptismal records for the children? Does anyone know if the grandparents had siblings that remained in the home country? Were any of their children born in that country? 1963 isn't so far back, if they lived in a small community there may still be neighbors there that would remember them that could help answer questions. Gayle gayle1@wheatstate.com