The man that did the book, said he knew all about the history of the man in the picture and in NO WAY could he be my Earl Clyde Carroll. I have found no family members for Earl Clyde Carroll. From the local people I have asked they all concluded the same thing. He was an outlaw, he was mysterious, and no one knew anything about him. He was very private and made sure people didn't invade his life with questions. I have tried to track down the people that took care of the babies grave and can not find them either. I too thought they had to be of some connection to him. I have also been unable to confirm the name of the Coal Mining newsletter. I have called everyone I could think of. I even called the labor union. I talked to several old timers and they can remember gettting the newsletter but no one has a copy of one. I checked the 1900-1910--and 1920 census and can not find any of them. I have tracked many "wrong" Earl Carrolls. And the Daniel Carrolls are to massive to begin to search. I am beginning to think that Gretta may have been her given name but she went by something else. I checked with the Bar Asso and find no William Marsh in the Bar, so much for the Lawyer clue. And No the only thing I have not checked is crimmal records..I am not sure how to do this. I do think he was Wanted. So do I check the county he lived or do I check the FBI..and if so where and how do I do this??? I did check the county court records and he never went to trial in this area. But I think he was wanted on an arrest warrent at the time of his death which would not tall much about him since they had not picked him up yet. This was 1938. Any clues to how I can find what coal mining newletter would have been sent out in the 1950-1970's. Mabels cousin seen the ad and tried to talk Mabel into answering it. She tried to tell Mabel it was his family. BUT Mabel had no interest in contacting them. I actually think she hated the man and was glad he died. Her life with him was very rough. Another crazy thing is I showed Mabels sisters the photo out of the Charlie Birger book and they too thought it was him. And Charlie Bigers girlfriend was a Carroll. I also thought a name like Gretta Ellsworth would be easy to track. I found one in FTM archives that died in Ohio. I found her daughter and Ellsworth was a married name not maiden. My joke to this mystery man is, the only way we will find out who he is will be to dig him up and make him talk. Many thanks for the replies I got from everyone.

I agree. What is this list for, but to read stories and help each other? If we don't have has many facts that is known, it kind of hard to help.

Good Lord - Love Brewster is a MAN!! (The "Love Brewster" George was supposed to be living with - of course, it probably wouldn't have been reported so cavalierly that he was 'living with' a woman, back then!) Site: http://www.gendex.com/users/hhadaway/harry/fam00996.htm says: Husband: Love Brewster Born: 1611 at: Holland 1 Married: 15 MAY 1634 at: Duxbury, Plymouth, MA 1 Died: BEF. 10 FEB 1650/51at: Duxbury, Plymouth, MA 1 Father:Wiliam Brewster Mother: Mary Other Spouses: Wife: Sarah Collier Born: 30 APR 1616 at: Southwark, Surrey, England 1 Died: 26 APR 1691 at: Plymouth , Plymouth, MA 2 Father:William Collier Mother:Jane Clarke Other Spouses: Richard Parke See the "Mother" 2 lines up? CLARKE! Do you suppose Jane was George's aunt? An AltaVista search for "Love Brewster" brought several hits in the 1600s in the right location. Francesca

--part1_b7.69ed408.26eab975_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message below. Annie Pa. Counties available for adoption! http://www.genexchange.org/pa/fulton/index.cfm http://www.genexchange.org/pa/blair/index.cfm http://www.genexchange.org/pa/index.cfm --part1_b7.69ed408.26eab975_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: <listadmin-bounces@rootsweb.com> Received: from rly-yd02.mx.aol.com (rly-yd02.mail.aol.com [172.18.150.2]) by air-yd02.mail.aol.com (v75_b3.11) with ESMTP; Fri, 08 Sep 2000 17:30:01 -0400 Received: from lists6.rootsweb.com (lists6.rootsweb.com [63.92.80.125]) by rly-yd02.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.9) with ESMTP; Fri, 08 Sep 2000 17:29:44 -0400 Received: (from slist@localhost) by lists6.rootsweb.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) id e88LTe118053 for GEN-UNSOLVED-MYSTERIES-admin@lists6.rootsweb.com; Fri, 8 Sep 2000 14:29:40 -0700 Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 14:29:40 -0700 X-From_: buzclan@corecomm.net Fri Sep 8 14:29:40 2000 Received: from newmail.rootsweb.com (newmail.rootsweb.com [63.92.80.103]) by lists6.rootsweb.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e88LTeG18033 for <GEN-UNSOLVED-MYSTERIES-L@lists6.rootsweb.com>; Fri, 8 Sep 2000 14:29:40 -0700 Received: from smtp-1.core.com (mx1.core.com [208.40.40.42]) by newmail.rootsweb.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e88LTeA14293 for <GEN-UNSOLVED-MYSTERIES-L@rootsweb.com>; Fri, 8 Sep 2000 14:29:40 -0700 Received: from default ([216.214.206.77]) by smtp-1.core.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id G0L7UB03.ADI for <GEN-UNSOLVED-MYSTERIES-L@rootsweb.com>; Fri, 8 Sep 2000 16:32:35 -0500 Message-ID: <014101c019db$4af55c20$4dced6d8@default> From: "M & S Busby" <buzclan@corecomm.net> To: <GEN-UNSOLVED-MYSTERIES-L@rootsweb.com> References: <200009081330.e88DUv518220@lists6.rootsweb.com> Old-Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 16:25:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list Subject: {not a subscriber} Alice Martin X-Envelope-To: GEN-UNSOLVED-MYSTERIES-L I'm totally fascinated with this Alice Martin story! I have a similar murder mystery in my family only about 275 years later. I can't solve mine but its interesting seeing someone else's search go on! I hope you won't let any negative emails stop you from thinking out loud (or out type as the case is) to the group. Silent but watching. *S* Shannon --part1_b7.69ed408.26eab975_boundary--

the dickey family wrote: > Also, re settlers in CT prior to the pilgrims -- I don't have my "stuff" here to check, but I'm almost willing to swear there were pockets of settlers in CT, and also across the Sound, in Long Island, prior to the Mayflower's arrival. > This is veering off-topic (and I'm at work so I'm doing this from memory....) so I'll try to be brief (at least for me): First, if you have reputable sources about other early New England settlers & settlements, I be very interested in the citations, as I haven't run across such & I'm working on really learning colonial New England history. Second, what the basic story (as I understand it, from the reading I've done) is on North American settlement by Europeans: There were some traders in New England before the Mayflower arrived at Plymouth but the only two permanent settlements in North America (and even those tended to be heavily male, so the numbers of children born were very small) were in VA and FL. The Dutch colony of New Netherland (now New York) was first settled in 1624, with about 30 families, IIRC. A fort near what is now Albany, NY, had been started earlier (?1614) but there weren't any children of European descent born at the fort. Southold, NY, on Long Island, was the first English town in what is now NYS (although Southampton also claims that status); it was settled in 1640 by settlers from the New Haven Colony. Other early settlements on Long Island included the Dutch (starting in 1635 or 1636) Brooklyn, Amerfort (Flatlands), and Midwout (Flatbush) as well as the English Southampton (1640) and East Hampton (1648). There were also some French traders/trappers in Quebec fairly early on, but there were very few (no?) European women there, either -- the first real settlements in New France were in the mid-1630s. There was also a small Swedish settlement started in the 1630s in what is now Delaware. >From the official CT website, at http://www.sots.state.ct.us/RegisterManual/SectionI/seldates.htm <begin quote> SELECTED IMPORTANT DATES IN CONNECTICUT'S HISTORY Prepared by the Connecticut Historical Commission 1614--Adriaen Block, representing the Dutch, sails up the Connecticut River. 1633--The Dutch erect a fort, the House of (Good) Hope, on the future site of Hartford. 1633--John Oldham and others explore and trade along the Connecticut River. Plymouth Colony sends William Holmes to found a trading post at Windsor. 1634--Wethersfield founded by people from Massachusetts. 1634--First English settlers in Windsor arrive in summer. 1635--Fort erected at Saybrook by Lion Gardiner. 1635--Group from Dorchester, Massachusetts join Windsor settlement. 1636--Thomas Hooker and company journey from Newtown (Cambridge), Massachusetts to found Hartford. 1637--Pequot War. Captain John Mason leads colonists to decisive victory. 1638--New Haven Colony established by John Davenport and Theophilus Eaton. 1639--Fundamental Orders of Connecticut adopted by Freemen of Hartford, Wethersfield and Windsor; John Haynes chosen first Governor. <end quote> If CT had settlers before the Mayflower landed at Plymouth, I expect that they would let the world know, as would the Long Island towns (that bragging rights thing.......<g>). Overall, I still would be very skeptical of anyone claiming that a child of European descent was born in New England prior to 1620, unless I've missed something major in my research. BJ

In reference to the post which provided this: >. Richard married Alice Clark on December 5, 1644 [possibly as his >second wife]. She was the widow of George Clark, and tragically ended >her life by murdering her own child, and was subsequently hung therefor, >in 1648. There is a mournful account of the murder by Alice Bishop of >her daughter, Martha Clarke, 4 years old, July 22, 1648 (Savage, Vol. I, >page 393). She also had another daughter, Abigail Clark. There is also >reference to "Damaris, (wife of the first William Sutton), daughter of >Alice and Richard Bishop". When William Sutton removed to New Jersey, >Bishop sold his property at Duxbury, and went to live with him. Richard >Bishop was called "of Piscattaway in Artercull or New Jersey," when he >sold to Capt. Benjamin Church his property in the Colony (Winsor's >Duxbury, page 228.)." Alice's daughters were apparently born in 1644 (Martha) and ~1640 (Abigail). The Richard Bishop site had Richard marrying Alice Martin Clark on 5 Dec 1644 - the same year Martha was born! (If I could just find info on George Clark, such as his death date!!) She didn't murder Martha until four years after marrying Richard; according to my database, their dau Damaris was born 1646 and would therefore have been two at the time of the murder. So several mysteries: -Alice couldn't have been suffering post-partum depression two years later over Damaris' birth (or maybe she could? I know nothing of that state) -If Richard Bishop moved with Damaris and her husband William SUTTON to New Jersey, when? They obviously did not move because of the murder, since Damaris was two when it happened, and when they moved, Damaris was already a married lady (m.at age 20 on 11 Jul 1666, Eastham MA). -This means Abigail was 26 at the time of Damaris' marriage, and therefore was probably already long married herself, unless she died. -If Richard kept both Alice's children with him, did he find himself someone else to "live with" - the web site doesn't say anything about Richard *and a wife* moving to NJ with William and Damaris. . . ie, who was taking care of the two little girls? -The part of the above post which said "Richard Bishop of Piscataway was originally a First Settler of Duxbury, MA, where he had a son, James Bishop. He lived with Love Brewster in 1638 . . ." Apparently he means Richard,because James was born [according to this guy's web site] in 'abt 1640' - same exact time frame as poor Abigail's birth! Was he married to this lady, or just living with her? Was she James' mother? Or was Richard married before he "lived with Love Brewster"? Maybe Love Brewster is another interesting mystery!! More later. Francesca

Thanks Annie for the warm welcome. I am looking forward to posting my family mysteries. I for one have been really fascinated with the Alice story .-----Glenda------ Annie wrote <<Hello Glenda, Welcome to the list, to answer your question, all posts regarding any type of genealogy mystery is accepted. This is a very good list. There are many kind, patient people on the list, and they are very willing to help. Annie List administrator>> Reseaching=HOPPER>MS+ FENNEL/FENNELL>MS>AR+JOLLY>KY>AR+MIDDLETON>TN>AR+RANKINS/RANKIN>?>AR http://community.webtv.net/GLCALFEE/GLMIDDLETONSHOMEPAGE

>don't let one grump , take you off the list. > >people should know that when they sign up for a list. It is not just to >talk about them. >and what they are interested in. > You're right, sorry. Thanks for the support out there - I've really appreciated all the help. And, apologize in advance to whoever that was who doesn't want to see yet another Alice post. Fr.

don't let one grump , take you off the list. people should know that when they sign up for a list. It is not just to talk about them. and what they are interested in. mondragon@mail.utexas.edu wrote: > > >Some of us don't appreciate receiving 20 plus a day regarding Alice Martin. > >I, for one , would appreciate it if you would restrict your commentaries to > >private email. > > "Some of us" who don't sign their names??? > > >No Flaming permitted on this list. > > Ok. > > What's a list for, if not for discovering things and sharing information? > What kind of posts would "some of us" prefer receiving??? > > Anyone wishing to continue with Alice, please e-mail me privately; I'm > outta this list. > > Francesca > <mondragon@mail.utexas.edu> > > ==== GEN-UNSOLVED-MYSTERIES Mailing List ==== > If you have any questions or comments, please address them to annie2ws@aol.com > > ============================== > Join the RootsWeb WorldConnect Project: > Linking the world, one GEDCOM at a time. > http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/

Hi! When the Alice Martin posts started, Annie suggested keeping her name in the subject so the uninterested could delete those posts. Perhaps Alice's story wasn't current enough for some, but it certainly fits within this list. I wasn't familiar with the story, and now I am; I consider that a plus. But if I'd wanted to, I could have deleted the posts unread. That's fair. We all have different interests. Also, re settlers in CT prior to the pilgrims -- I don't have my "stuff" here to check, but I'm almost willing to swear there were pockets of settlers in CT, and also across the Sound, in Long Island, prior to the Mayflower's arrival. Elaine dickey.pa@draac.com ====================== - ---------------------------------------------------------- Email Provided By http://www.draac.com/ Free Graphics http://gifs123.tripod.com/

>Some of us don't appreciate receiving 20 plus a day regarding Alice Martin. >I, for one , would appreciate it if you would restrict your commentaries to >private email. "Some of us" who don't sign their names??? >No Flaming permitted on this list. Ok. What's a list for, if not for discovering things and sharing information? What kind of posts would "some of us" prefer receiving??? Anyone wishing to continue with Alice, please e-mail me privately; I'm outta this list. Francesca <mondragon@mail.utexas.edu>

If the author of the book on the Birger Gang knows who the person was in the photo in the book, then how about investigating that person. 1. Where was he in the time frame you need? 2. Who was his family? Were they in an area where Earl might have lived as a child. "Earl" may well have changed his name. ----as for Earl 3. Have you investigated the people where he and Mable lived at those times? 4. What about the lady who looked after the babies grave....could she have been a relative? Check out her family. 5. Can you find back issues of the coal mining newsletter and look for the ad? Does the newsletter still exist? If so, can you run an ad there looking for the person who posted the ad? It would seem someone else knew him by that name. 6. I assume you have read the 1920 soundex for PA, TN and surrounding states to see if you can find him. Have you looked at the 1910 soundex for TN to see if he or the people he lists as parents are there? 7. Have you checked to see if there was an attorney by the name he mentioned? Have you checked criminal court records in that area to see if was tried in the area where the attorney worked. He may have been his attorney if he was in trouble, and had been in jail. 8. Have you checked FBI records to see if he was a wanted man? g2

Wow, thanks, Ruth!! That is a BIG help!!! Francesca >Have you seen the following? (at >http://www.gendex.com/users/jast/D0007/G0000038.html) > >"Thanks to the website "Don Dickenson's Ancestors" from which this >information was copied. > >"Richard Bishop of Piscataway was originally a First Settler of Duxbury, >Massachusetts, where he had a son, James Bishop. He lived with Love >Brewster in 1638. Richard Bishop was of Plymouth, and there he hired >Nathaniel Souther on January 5, 1640-1. Among those "Able to bear arms >in the Colony of New Plymouth. 1643, were Nathl Souther, George Clarke, >and Richard Bushop." >. Richard married Alice Clark on December 5, 1644 [possibly as his >second wife]. She was the widow of George Clark, and tragically ended >her life by murdering her own child, and was subsequently hung therefor, >in 1648. There is a mournful account of the murder by Alice Bishop of >her daughter, Martha Clarke, 4 years old, July 22, 1648 (Savage, Vol. I, >page 393). She also had another daughter, Abigail Clark. There is also >reference to "Damaris, (wife of the first William Sutton), daughter of >Alice and Richard Bishop". When William Sutton removed to New Jersey, >Bishop sold his property at Duxbury, and went to live with him. Richard >Bishop was called "of Piscattaway in Artercull or New Jersey," when he >sold to Capt. Benjamin Church his property in the Colony (Winsor's >Duxbury, page 228.)." > >So there is the relocation of the family to NJ (including Richard Bishop, >Alice's husband). Perhaps Abigail Clark went with them ... but then again >she may have been married by then, or perhaps she died in childhood ...

Well said! I enjoy the emails from this list very much! ----- Original Message ----- >Let's consider what another may prefer, but not try to control the group because of our own > desires.

I agree! delilah At 08:27 9/8/00 -0400, you wrote: >Hi everyone! My name is Vicki Ashton and I just signed up last night. I was going over some of the older postings and was just amazed! You people are very persistent! I loved it when something ended up being 'solved'! Y'all are so nice and helpful to each other too. I feel like I almost know some of you already. > >I didn't read all the postings of course, but this Alice Martin mystery is intriguing. This morning when I received so many responses regarding her, I loved it. It is really helpful to me to hear other people's 'thoughts' and the way it puts a new slant on my own way of thinking. I guess that is a lot of the reason I signed onto a few mailing lists. I very much appreciate getting all the responses publicly for this very reason. It's not hard to hit the 'delete' button if you aren't interested in a particular mystery but so helpful to those of us who are. > >Thanks to everyone for being so open and I hope to get to know each of you better! After I get a better feel for things, I have a mystery or two to share also! > >Vicki > > >==== GEN-UNSOLVED-MYSTERIES Mailing List ==== >If you have any questions or comments, please address them to annie2ws@aol.com > >============================== >Genealogy calendars, guestbooks and more: >Visit RootsWeb's Resource Center at >http://resources.rootsweb.com/ > >

Some of us DO like getting 20+ messages a day regarding such mysteries as Alice Martin; and everyone has a "delete" button! Let's consider what another may prefer, but not try to control the group because of our own desires. Lory ----- Original Message ----- From: gss4224 <gss4224@email.msn.com> To: <GEN-UNSOLVED-MYSTERIES-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 5:07 AM Subject: Re: GEN-UNSOLVED-MYSTERIES-D Digest V00 #293 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <GEN-UNSOLVED-MYSTERIES-D-request@rootsweb.com> > To: <GEN-UNSOLVED-MYSTERIES-D@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 11:55 PM > Subject: GEN-UNSOLVED-MYSTERIES-D Digest V00 #293 > > Some of us don't appreciate receiving 20 plus a day regarding Alice Martin. > I, for one , would appreciate it if you would restrict your commentaries to > private email. > > > > ==== GEN-UNSOLVED-MYSTERIES Mailing List ==== > No Flaming permitted on this list. > > ============================== > Search ALL of RootsWeb's mailing lists in real time. > RootsWeb's Personalized Mailing Lists: > http://pml.rootsweb.com/ > >

Hi Carolyn, Have you looked into the possibility of Earl being of Melungeon Descent? Faith ----- Original Message ----- They called him the big Indian. Although I don't think there was any Indian lineage in his blood. He had a ruddy complextion, dark hair and eyes, and big ears

Hi everyone! My name is Vicki Ashton and I just signed up last night. I was going over some of the older postings and was just amazed! You people are very persistent! I loved it when something ended up being 'solved'! Y'all are so nice and helpful to each other too. I feel like I almost know some of you already. I didn't read all the postings of course, but this Alice Martin mystery is intriguing. This morning when I received so many responses regarding her, I loved it. It is really helpful to me to hear other people's 'thoughts' and the way it puts a new slant on my own way of thinking. I guess that is a lot of the reason I signed onto a few mailing lists. I very much appreciate getting all the responses publicly for this very reason. It's not hard to hit the 'delete' button if you aren't interested in a particular mystery but so helpful to those of us who are. Thanks to everyone for being so open and I hope to get to know each of you better! After I get a better feel for things, I have a mystery or two to share also! Vicki

In the late 1920's a man by the name of Earl Clyde Carroll showed up to work in the coal mines of Bedford Co., PA. He boarded with John Showalter, this was a way to help out with the Showalter income. Soon he wanted to marry Johns daughter Mabel. Against her families wishes they were married. Everyone just thought there was a dark side to this man. He was a stranger and was very private about his past. He did say he was born in Memphis, Tn but was not raised there. He said both parents were dead. On Oct 16, 1931 he and Mabel married and on his marriage licenses he put he was born in Memphis on Jan 21, 1908. He listed his parents as Daniel Anderson Carroll and Gretta May Ellsworth. He said he had once lived with a lawyer, named William Marsh, in Dubois, Pa. Also he took Mabel to Long Island, NY and they worked/stayed with a Sawyer family. Mable was a maid and she is not sure what he did. They then moved to Totz, Harlan Co, Ky and lived above a store and they had! a baby at the age of 3 months die there on July 24, 1934. His name was Ralph Gerald Carroll. When they left Totz a lady by the name of Fanny Durham said she would care for the babys grave. They also stayed with a Ross and Deloris Hickey. They also had a son born in Pa named Earl William Carroll on April 21, 1933. Earl Clyde Carroll was on the run from the law. He was a bootlegger and made runs to Florida and to the south. He was a mean man and Mabel knew not to ask questions. They called him the big Indian. Although I don't think there was any Indian lineage in his blood. He had a ruddy complextion, dark hair and eyes, and big ears. He died in Huntingdon Co., PA on April 25, 1908 of Blood Poisoning. Mabel said he was suppose to have cousins in the south central part of Tn. I think he was involved in a Big Gang, like the Birger gang. I actually read a book on the Birger gang and the only picture we have of Earl Clyde Carroll looked like one of the members of th! e gang. I contacted the author of the book with my story and a copy of the picture I had and he agreed the pictures looked alike but that he knew who the man in his book was and it was not Earl Clyde Carroll. I know Mabel was not withholding information because even on his death certificate she had his fathers name wrong and his mothers name listed as unknown. I have tracked every little lead we have on him and nothing has shown up. Someone said circa 1950-1970's in a coal mining newsletter there was an ad of someone looking for him, probably family. Mabel never answered the ad. Some even suggested he changed his name. Any Suggestions of where I could search for him???

Hello Glenda, Welcome to the list, to answer your question, all posts regarding any type of genealogy mystery is accepted. This is a very good list. There are many kind, patient people on the list, and they are very willing to help. Annie List administrator