> As I understand it the Sele priory fine cited by Doug Thompson blows > this out of the water, since Reynold de Braiose in 1227 evidently > thought that Berta (whichever Beauchamp she married) was a sister of > Hugh de Mortimer's wife Annora who was living in 1241. > > Peter Stewart True. And "thought that" is a bit of an understatement. I'm sure he knew his own sisters! This makes it really impossible that Berta was married to William 1 de Beauchamp. Peter, when you write "Giles had returned to England in 1213 and - of course - he and his brother could do business other than with the king. I dare say that, between them, they could even chew gum at the same time. From May 1216 Reynold was in possession of the Braiose lordships that Giles had recovered in 1215. If their sister's maritagium (or even a part of it) had been improperly withheld from the family at a time when they needed every resource they could get hold of, why would they have left Walter de Beauchamp in undisturbed possession when he was marrried to Joan de Mortimer from 1212? " I wonder if you have a knowledge of the situation in England and Wales at that time? It was not a place where Giles and Reynold could carry out business, chewing gum or not! They were at war with the King, marching about with armies in Wales. Land disputes were only settled by force of arms. The niceties of legal documentation came later. I value Matthew Tompkins' inputs which may explain some of the legal points in the fines. It looks to me now as if the 1227 fine could allow "Walter and his heirs by the daughter.." to mean the heirs through his mother, excluding heirs through his father's sons by a later wife. This ties in with Berta marrying William II de Beauchamp, the conclusion we came to 15 years ago!! But I'm not sure it quite "feels" right even now. There is a problem that the documents have glaring errors - the 160 years - and the naming of Joanna's husband as William in the Worcester Annals - and some ambiguities as in the 1227 fine's reading of Walter's heirs by Berta. We may have to keep a slightly open mind yet. Doug Thompson