Lamentably late (other pressures having intervened) & well out of order but just to round out the background to Doug's appetizer — > Fifteen years ago (Sep 2002!) we had a discussion on this list about the Braose Beauchamp marriage between Bertha and William or Walter. I joined in with Chris Phillips, Cris Nash and John Ravilious trying to come to a considered conclusion, which I think we did - That Bertha was a daughter of William de Braose and Maud de St Valery and that she married William Beauchamp (d 1197). — a year later this posting followed the sequence he had in mind. Cheers all. Cris > From: "Chris Phillips" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Parentage of Matilda de Braose (St Valery) > Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 08:47:13 +0100 > To: [email protected] > > “Peter Stewart wrote: > > Perhaps you have different William de Beauchamps in mind - I think > > Bertha de Braose was the wife of William I, lord of Elmley, who was > > sheriff of Worcester from 1155, sheriff of Gloucester in 1156-7, > > sheriff of Hereford 1160-67, sheriff of Warwick 1158-9, and reportedly > > died in 1170. > > > > His heir, Bertha's son William II (died in Normandy 1197), married > > first a sister (name unknown) of Odo, the tenant of Salwarpe, and > > secondly a lady named Amicia, the mother of his sons. The elder of > > these was William III, known as 'Wilekin' (died 1211/12) who married > > Joan (daughter of Thomas, seigneur of Saint-Valery & Adela of > > Ponthieu) and was succeeded in Emley by his brother Walter. > > > > But please note, this information is not from a close study of the > > family, just from old notes citing, amongst other secondary works, > > Emma Mason's 'Legends of the Beauchamps' Ancestors: The Use of > > Baronial Propaganda in Medieval England', _Journal of Medieval > > History_ 10 (1984), and her edition of _The Beauchamp Cartulary > > Charters 1100-1268_ (London, 1980). I am not able to check either of > > these at present. > > Yes - Mason does give this identification (I had seen only the Beauchamp > Cartulary, and will make a note to look at the other reference you mention > too). She has been followed in this by Keats-Rohan, in Domesday Descendants. > > Essentially, the document identifying Bertha - an early 14th-century > inquisition - does place her as the wife of the William who died in 1197, > but dates the marriage to the mid 12th century. This is one of the reasons > for which Mason moves it back a generation. But it seems clear that the land > involved would not have come to the Braoses before the 1190s, so that the > inquisition has overestimated the lapse of time. > > The other reason for moving Bertha a generation earlier was an undated > charter for Westwood Priory, given by an Anicia, lady of Salwarp, who is the > widow of one William de Beauchamp and the mother of another. Elsewhere she > is called Amice de Mumby. Mason identified her as the widow of William de > Beauchamp who d. 1197, presumably in the absence of another candidate. > > It appears she could perhaps be the same as Amice, the wife of Eudo de Mumby (d. c. 1197). The only suggestion I can make is that the Amice/Anice of the charter was the widow of a different William de Beauchamp, perhaps before > marrying Eudo (whose son and heir was a minor in 1197). > > There's more discussion of this in a thread entitled "Early Beauchamps (was: > Second update to DP and DD amendments)" in July this year. > > Chris Phillips”