On Thursday, June 1, 2017 at 11:00:29 PM UTC+1, Peter Stewart wrote: > On 2/06/2017 5:56 AM, Doug Thompson wrote: > > I know this is adding another possible layer of confusion but - > > > > What if, during Wm de Braose's custody of Elmley he married Berta to the heir. That would have been William, Walter's older brother who died in 1211. The Tebury jurors may then have had a correct descent of the land from William to Walter etc. but, since it was before their own lifetimes, made an assumption that the William was Walter's father rather than his brother! > > > > Since this is the only evidence for a Braose Beachamp marriage at all, the small error may have caused us all this confusion. It would seem to fit the time scales better than a marriage to the father, who seems to have had a wife called Amice according to many. > > The younger William de Beauchamp (brother of Walter) is said to have > married Jeanne de Saint-Valery and to have died at around 20 years of > age. Can you let us know if you think this is incorrect, and what the > evidence is? > > Peter Stewart I have seen Joan de St Valery married to two different Williams in the pedigree but not this one before! I thought she was invented as a device to explain the Beachamp possession of the Tetbury lands, which Bertha's marriage does better. Is there any evidence at all for the existence of this Joan de St Valery? Doug Thompson

On 2/06/2017 6:56 PM, Doug Thompson wrote: > On Thursday, June 1, 2017 at 11:00:29 PM UTC+1, Peter Stewart wrote: >> On 2/06/2017 5:56 AM, Doug Thompson wrote: >>> I know this is adding another possible layer of confusion but - >>> >>> What if, during Wm de Braose's custody of Elmley he married Berta to the heir. That would have been William, Walter's older brother who died in 1211. The Tebury jurors may then have had a correct descent of the land from William to Walter etc. but, since it was before their own lifetimes, made an assumption that the William was Walter's father rather than his brother! >>> >>> Since this is the only evidence for a Braose Beachamp marriage at all, the small error may have caused us all this confusion. It would seem to fit the time scales better than a marriage to the father, who seems to have had a wife called Amice according to many. >> The younger William de Beauchamp (brother of Walter) is said to have >> married Jeanne de Saint-Valery and to have died at around 20 years of >> age. Can you let us know if you think this is incorrect, and what the >> evidence is? >> >> Peter Stewart > I have seen Joan de St Valery married to two different Williams in the pedigree but not this one before! I thought she was invented as a device to explain the Beachamp possession of the Tetbury lands, which Bertha's marriage does better. > > Is there any evidence at all for the existence of this Joan de St Valery? I was hoping you would answer this - I have no idea. There is an article on the St Valery family by Herbert Fowler in *The Genealogist*, new series 30 (1914) pp 1-16 & table, but unfortunately Internet Archive is having pathway troubles and can't be accessed (from Australia anyway) at present, so I can't find out if Joan is mentioned there. She does come up in a suspicious number of genealogy websites, in common with many an invented personage... Peter Stewart