Em sexta-feira, 2 de junho de 2017 00:04:19 UTC+1, Peter Stewart escreveu: > On 2/06/2017 4:16 AM, Paulo Canedo wrote: > > Dear followers of the newsgroup as you may know Oberto I of Italy was ancestor of the Italian House of Este he is said by the chronicles to be the son of a so called Margrave Adalbert who probably possessed the march of Milan that compressed Lombardy and part of Liguria. This so called Malgrave Adalbert is of uncertain ancestry although you can find it quite widespread that he was probably a son of Guido of Lucca and Marozia. According to the Italian Wikipedia this theory originated with the book Gli Estensi of Luciano Chiappini. This book seems to be a very good source about the House of Este. This particular connection is very interesting because if correct it would make the House of Este male-line descendants of Bertha of Lorraine who was herself male-line great-great-granddaughter of Charlemagne providing the House of Este with a descent of Charlemagne with only ONE female generation. I'm wondering however what are the reasons of the theory that Adalberto was son of Guido. Can anyone in this newsgroup with the book report them please. Also, > > comments are welcome. > > There is an enormous literature on this subject, and Chiappini's > contribution is not usually taken as very persuasive. More plausible is > Alessandro Pallavicino's suggestion (in 2005), that Oberto was probably > descended from the family of the gastalds of Sorano. There is not enough > evidence from Oberto's patrimony and his first appearance (as a count) > in April 945 to pin down his origin. > > Peter Stewart What arguments do Chiappini and Pallavicino to support their respective thesis.

On 3/06/2017 3:31 AM, Paulo Canedo wrote: > Em sexta-feira, 2 de junho de 2017 00:04:19 UTC+1, Peter Stewart escreveu: >> On 2/06/2017 4:16 AM, Paulo Canedo wrote: >>> Dear followers of the newsgroup as you may know Oberto I of Italy was ancestor of the Italian House of Este he is said by the chronicles to be the son of a so called Margrave Adalbert who probably possessed the march of Milan that compressed Lombardy and part of Liguria. This so called Malgrave Adalbert is of uncertain ancestry although you can find it quite widespread that he was probably a son of Guido of Lucca and Marozia. According to the Italian Wikipedia this theory originated with the book Gli Estensi of Luciano Chiappini. This book seems to be a very good source about the House of Este. This particular connection is very interesting because if correct it would make the House of Este male-line descendants of Bertha of Lorraine who was herself male-line great-great-granddaughter of Charlemagne providing the House of Este with a descent of Charlemagne with only ONE female generation. I'm wondering however what are the reasons of the theory that Adalberto was son of ! Guido. Can anyone in this newsgroup with the book report them please. Also, >>> comments are welcome. >> There is an enormous literature on this subject, and Chiappini's >> contribution is not usually taken as very persuasive. More plausible is >> Alessandro Pallavicino's suggestion (in 2005), that Oberto was probably >> descended from the family of the gastalds of Sorano. There is not enough >> evidence from Oberto's patrimony and his first appearance (as a count) >> in April 945 to pin down his origin. >> >> Peter Stewart > What arguments do Chiappini and Pallavicino to support their respective thesis. There is no Chiappini thesis - he was writing a lightly-sourced book in a popular series on great families (that includes volumes on such luminaries as the Rockerfellers, Vanderbilts, Krupps and Fuggers). It is not a profound study of the Este lineage. He rather summarily reverted to a discredited idea discussed between Muratori and Leibniz, that is simply inadmissable. Your Adalbert of uncertain ancestry was certainly not a son of Guido of Lucca and Marozia: they had no sons. Guido was succeeded by his brother Lamberto, who was obliged to fight a duel trying to prove that he was a son of Marozia when his maternal half-brother King Hugo denied this. Hugo claimed that Guido and Lamberto were both ring-ins. Lamberto lost, then he was blinded and imprisoned. There is no possibility that Guido had left a son named Adalberto who was by-passed for the paternal inheritance of Lucca and Tuscany, and then overlooked by the chroniclers who tell us about this family. In any case, in January 945 Marozia's children transacted a charter together with some of their cousins in which no Adalberto appears, and with no reference to any purported rights of Oberto in their business. In the vast literature on the subject of Oberto's origins more substantial conjectures were raised, for instance attempting to link him as a descendant to the Supponid dukes of Spoleto. This too is not accepted today. Pallavicino's conjecture was based on Oberto's possession of Luni, Tortona and Genoa and the recurrence of the name Adalberto among his descendants - one of the two main lines of descent from him is known from this name. The gastalds of Sorano were also Adalberti, and geographically plausible antecessors for Oberto. Peter Stewart