Dear Newsgroup ~ Back in 2012 there was a lengthy discussion on the newsgroup regarding the parentage of Sir John Say, of Broxbourne, Hertfordshire (died 1478). Sir John held a variety of responsible posts in his long career in public service: Coroner of the Marshalsea, Yeoman of the Chamber & Crown, Keeper of Westminster Palace, Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, Privy Councillor, Under Treasurer of England, Keeper of the Great Wardrobe, and Speaker of the House of Commons. By her first marriage to Frederick Tilney, Sir John Say's wife, Elizabeth Cheyne, is better known as an ancestress of Queen Anne Boleyn. I previously noted that Genealogist n.s. 7 (1890): 57 states that Sir John Say was the son of John Saye, of "Poldington," Bedfordshire, and his wife, Maud. Unfortunately, no documentation was provided at the time for that statement. In 2012 I located a Common Pleas lawsuit dated 1447 whereby a John Robberdes and his wife, Alice, widow and executrix of John Say, of Poddington, Bedfordshire sued William Gawge, of Hinwick (in Poddington), Bedfordshire regarding a bond which the said Gawge made with John Say in 1439, which was still unpaid. As pointed out by Janet Wolfe, the 1447 lawsuit indicates that John Say, of Poddington, was still alive 20 April 1442. I've copied an abstract of the 1447 lawsuit below. The original may be viewed at the following weblinks kindly provided by Janet Wolfe: http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no744/bCP40no744dorses/IMG_1467.htm http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no744/bCP40no744dorses/IMG_1475.htm I felt reasonably certain that I had located the correct father of Sir John Say (died 1478), but I've wanted see better evidence. Recently I located yet another lawsuit dated 1448 involving the same John Robberdes and his wife, Alice. In this new lawsuit, John Robbardes [sic] & Alice his wife, widow and executrix of John Say, of Podington, Bedfordshire, late Citizen and grocer of London, sued Roger Wylde, of Yelden, Bedfordshire, husbandman in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £40. Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/748, image 1675d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no748/bCP40no748dorses/IMG_1675.htm). >From this new lawsuit, we learn that John Say, Alice Robbardes' former husband, was a Citizen and grocer of London, in addition to his being of Poddington, Bedfordshire. Assuming we have the correct parentage of Sir John Say identified, this new information that John Say, of Poddington, was a London citizen and grocer, surely explains why Sir John Say's known brother, Master William Say, Dean of St. Paul's, was stated to be of "Aldgate Without" in London in 1425 when he entered Winchester School as a young man in 1425. The reason is because their father, John Say, of Poddington, was a London resident. Besides the new lawsuit, I've located two additional pieces of evidence concerning John Say, of Poddington, Bedfordshire, Citizen and grocer of London. The first record is a fine involving John Say, of Poddington, Bedfordshire dated 1408. An abstract of the fine is copied further below. The second record concerns John Say, grocer, evidently of London, and is dated 1425: In 1425 Henry Honyman, fishmonger and Katherine his wife, widow of John Aylesham, grocer issued an acquittance to John Say, grocer, and John Faryngdon, administrators of the goods and chattels of the said John Aylesham, on the receipt of 80 marks [see Thomas, Calendar of Plea and Memoranda Roll 1413–1437 (1943): 182]. One further comment. There is a pedigree of the Say family in Mundy, Middlesex Pedigrees (H.S.P. 65) (1914): 160–161. In that pedigree, Sir John Say, Speaker of the House of Commons, is specifically identified as the brother a certain Hugh Say, whose wife is identified as ".... da. and heire of Robert Colebrooke." The Say pedigree can be viewed at the following weblink: https://archive.org/stream/middlesexpedigre651914#page/160/mode/2up I recently attempted to learn what I could regarding the Say-Colbroke couple. My research indicates that Robert Colbroke (or Colbrooke), ironmonger of London, occurs in 1423 and 1430. He is the plaintiff in two Common Pleas lawsuits in 1430. He died testate (see Common Pleas lawsuit dated 1437 below). He married Joan, daughter of Richard Wodecock. In 1434 Robert Colebroke's widow, Joan, married (as his 2nd of three wives) Sir Hugh Wyche, Alderman, Citizen, and mercer of London, who subsequently served as Mayor of London in 1461-2. Sir Hugh Wyche died in 1466. [see Wedgwood Hist. of Parliament 1 (1936): 945–946 (biog. of Hugh Wyche)]. It is certain that Robert Colbroke and his wife, Joan, had a daughter who married a Saye, as Robert Colbroke is specifically called great-grandfather in the 1517 will of a certain Hugh Say, of London, mercer. Hugh Say's will specifically states that Robert Colbroke was his father's mother's parent. But which Say male did Robert Colbroke's daughter marry? If we trust the Middlesex pedigree, Miss Colbroke married Hugh Say, son of a William Say. However, Vistations of London 1568, 1569–90 (H.S.P. 109-10) (1957): 99–100 includes yet another Say pedigree. It states the following: "John Say of Podington in the cowntie of Bedford esquyre maried the doughter of Colbroke and had yssue Robert Saye. Robert Saye Sonne and heire of John Say had yssue Hugh Saye." Once again we have a connection between the Say family of Poddington, Bedfordshire and the Colbroke family of London. But in this pedigree, Miss Colbroke is stated to have married "John Say of Podington" not Hugh Say. There is a full transcript of the 1517 will of Hugh Say of London, mercer available online at the following weblink: http://research-information.bristol.ac.uk/files/3021170/2011saywill.pdf In the editorial comments which precede the transcript of the will, the editor indicates that Hugh Say the testator's father was probably the Robert Say who was Sir Hugh Wyche's apprentice and who followed him into the Mercers Company. I believe that is correct. This agrees with the Visitations of London pedigree. If we accept that Hugh Say (the 1517 testator) was the grandson of John (or Hugh) Say, of Poddington, by his wife, Miss Colbroke, then the question arises is this John (or Hugh) Say the same person as John Say, of Poddington, Bedfordshire, who was Grocer of London (living 1442), who left a widow, Alice, who remarried to John Robberdes (or Robbardes)? My guess is they are different men, possibly son and father. If that is the case, then I assume the John (or Hugh) Say with a Colbroke wife was younger than the John Say (living 1442) who left a widow, Alice. If the two men are son and father, it could mean that John Say (living 1442) may have had two sons named John, one who married Miss Colbroke and one who became the Speaker of the House of Commons. Having two sons of the same name is not unknown in the medieval period. What ever the relationship between these two wings of the Say family is, it is clear from the Visitation of London that the family of Hugh Say (the 1517 testator) bore the same coat of arms as the family of Sir John Say (died 1478), who was Speaker of the House of Commons. And, both sets of family are alleged to be from Poddington, Bedfordshire. That much is clear. So Poddington, Bedfordshire would seem to be the ancestral home alright. Beyond these scraps of information, I've also established that Robert Colbroke the ironmonger had another daughter and heiress, Eden, who married Arthur Ormesby, Esq. The will of Eden's husband, Arthur Ormesby, Esq., is dated 2 August 1467, proved 15 November 1468 (P.C.C., 25 Godyn). In his will, Arthur Ormesby specifically states that his wife, Eden, is the "daughter and heir of Robert Colbroke and Johanne his wife." Mention is also made of Eden's step-father, Sir Hugh Wyche. A full transcript of the will is published in Sussex Archaeological Collections and may be viewed at the following weblink: https://archive.org/stream/surreyarchaeol43surr/surreyarchaeol43surr_djvu.txt Elswhere I find that "Dame Eden Ormesby" is mention in an early Chancery proceeding dated 1465-83, which record I've copied below. Given that Eden (Colbroke) Ormesby was living c.1467, and that her father Robert Colbroke was living in 1423-30, I would have to guess that any sister of Eden's married to a Say was at least one generation later than John Say, of Poddington, Bedfordshire, citizen and grocer of London, who occurs 1408, 1425, 1442, who left a widow Alice. Therefore the husband of the Colbroke daughter can not have been the mother of Sir John Say, Speaker of the House of Commons. Sister-in-law perhaps, but certainly not his mother. I still believe that John Say, of Poddington, Bedfordshire, now identified as Citizen and grocer of London, is the father of Sir John Say, Speaker of the House of Commons. Hopefully additional records can be located to prove this conclusively. Finally, I might say that by calling Eden Ormesby a "dame" in her Chancery lawsuit, this means she had at least one other marriage to a knight. Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah + + + + + + + + + + + 1. Source: http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_6_74.shtml#24; Special thanks go to Chris Phillips for this abstract. Feet of Fine CP 25/1/6/74, number 24. County: Bedfordshire. Place: Westminster. Date: One week from the Purification of the Blessed Mary, 9 Henry [IV] [9 February 1408]. Parties: John Say of Podyngton' and Richard Huet, clerk, querents, and William Parker of Sharnebrook and Joan, his wife, deforciants. Property: 1 messuage and 60 acres of land in Hynwyk. Action: Plea of covenant. Agreement: William and Joan have acknowledged the tenements to be the right of Richard, as those which Richard and John have of their gift, and have remised and quitclaimed them from themselves and the heirs of Joan to John and Richard and the heirs of Richard for ever. For this: John and Richard have given them 20 marks of silver. Standardised forms of names. (These are tentative suggestions, intended only as a finding aid.) Persons: John Say, Richard Hewett, William Parker, Joan Parker Places: Podington, Sharnbrook, Hinwick (in Podington) 2. In 1437 Robert Clopton, Citizen and draper of London, and Richard Marchall, Citizen and ironmonger of London, executors of the will of Robert Colbroke, late Citizen and ironmonger of London, and Hugh Wyche, Citizen and mercer of London, and Joan his wife, who was the wife of Robert Colbroke, Citizen and Ironmonger of London, [and] co-executrix with the said Robert Clopton and Richard of the said will, sued Stephen Sengester, Gent., of Kempsyng, Kent, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of 40s. Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/705, image 1133d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no705/bCP40no705dorses/IMG_1133.htm). 3. Source: Online Discovery catalogue Reference: C 1/31/3 Description: Short title: Eden v The Mayor of London. Plaintiffs: Dame Eden Ormesby, late the wife of Arthur Ormesby. Defendants: The mayor and sheriffs of London. Subject: Action brought by [Simon Hardby] on a bond: detention of documents by the wife of Matthew Philip, late the wife of William Lemyng, or the executors of the said Lemyng. Petition for writ of `certiorari.': London.. SFP Date: 1465-1471, or perhaps 1480-1483 Held by: The National Archives, Kew

Dear Newsgroup ~ In my previous post today, I said the following: "Therefore the husband of the Colbroke daughter can not have been the mother of Sir John Say, Speaker of the House of Commons. Sister-in-law perhaps, but certainly not his mother." I meant to say: "Therefore the Colbroke daughter (wife of Hugh or John Say) can not have been the mother of Sir John Say, Speaker of the House of Commons. She was perhaps his sister-in-law, but certainly not his mother." I've located a couple more references to Eden Colbroke, wife of Athur Ormesby, Esq. In the first item below, Arthur Ormesby and his wife, Iden [sic], are plaintiffs in a Chancery lawsuit. The second item below is a reference to an inquisition post mortem for Eden (Colbroke) Ormesby, here she is called Edith Ormesby. If Eden Ormesby died without issue (as I think probable), then her heir would be her nephew Robert Say or great-nephew, Hugh Say the testator of 1517. This should be revealed in her inquisition post mortem. There is brief note on the Ormesby family in Notes and Queries, 10th Series, 8 (1907): 389, which may be read at the following weblink: https://books.google.com/books?id=PmEEAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA389&lpg=PA389 Among other things, the note states that the inquisition of Edith [sic] Ormsby was taken 20 Nov. 1480. The third and fourth items below concern Robert Colbroke, ironmonger. They are dated 1421 and 1422. Robert Colbroke and his wife, Joan Wodecock, were the parents of two daughters, ____ (wife of Hugh or John Say) and Eden (wife of Arthur Ormesby, Esq.). In the book, Columbus Myth: Did Men of Bristol reach America before Columbus? (1991): 112, we learn that Sir Hugh Wyche took on an apprentice named Robert Say in 1452, which Robert subsequently became a full member of the Mercers Company. I believe this Robert Say is the young grandson of Robert Colbroke and his wife, Joan Wodecock. If we make sense of the respective Say pedigrees in the Visitations of Middlesex and London, this Robert Say would presumably be a nephew of Sir John Say, Speaker of the House of Commons. The same book and page states that Sir Hugh Wyche (husband of Joan Wodecock, widow of Robert Colbroke) was "closely associated" with Sir John Say. If I understand the pedigrees correctly, then Sir John Say's brother (be it Hugh or John) was married to Sir Hugh Wyche's Colbroke step-daughter. Finally, I should mention that there is a Ralph Say, Citizen and grocer of London, who occurs in the same time period as John Say, of Podington, Bedfordshire, who was Citizen and grocer of London. I presume they are near related. Ralph Say, the London grocer, occurs as early as 1406. See the following weblink: http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/chamberlain-roger The Bede Roll of the Fraternity of St Nicholas, ed. NW James and VA James (London, 2004), pp. 1-26 includes references in footnotes to both Ralph Say and his wife, Katherine: "Probably the Ralph Say, citizen and grocer, with property in St Martin Pomeroy and St Swithin parishes. He left a will (no probate) of 28 November 1447 (Guildhall MS 9171/4, f. 264r). His widow Katherine appears among admissions before 1449 (20) and deaths for 1457 (53)." "Among deaths for 1457 (53). Presumably the Katherine Say, widow of Ralph Say, with property in St Antholin and St Lawrence Jewry, who appears among deaths before 1448 (25). She requested burial with her late husband in the church of St Antholin by her will of 29 October 1457, proved 15 March 1458 (Guildhall MS 9171/5, f. 240r)." END OF QUOTE. It would appear that Ralph Say and his widow, Katherine, both left wills. If Ralph Say is near related to Sir John Say as I suspect, he is probably named in Ralph Say's will. Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah + + + + + + + + + 1. Source: Online Discovery catalogue Reference: C 1/31/118 Description: Short title: Ormesby v Ryplyngham. Plaintiffs: Arthur Ormesby and Iden his wife, John Stokker, John Broker, Robert Cotes, Blaunche Northamton, Rose Northamton, and Elizabeth Northamton. Defendants: Thomas Ryplyngham, John Metheley, and John Hawe, arbitrators. Subject: Breach of promise to make an award in writing between complainants and Thomas Batter and Isabel his wife, relative to a tenement called the `Lyon Keye,' in St Botolph beside Billingsgate. London Date: 1465-1471, or perhaps 1480-1483 Held by: The National Archives, Kew 2. Source: Online Discovery catalogue Reference: C 140/75/30 Description: Chancery: Inquisitions Post Mortem, Series I, Edward IV Ormesby, Edith Lincs Date: 20 Edw IV Held by: The National Archives, Kew 3. Source: Online Discovery catalogue Reference: ACC/0312/75 Title: Feoffment by John Salle clerk, Thomas atte Hyde of South Stoke Co. Oxon and Richard Holm, citizen and Woolmonger to William Sevenoke, grocer, Robert Colbroke, ironmonger and John Payable, mercer of lands called Canuteloneffeld in Herfeld, Rogers atte Wode, Hilles the Lord and Briddeslond etc. Boundaries given. Description: 3 seals. Date: 15 Dec. 9 Hen.V. 1421 Held by: London Metropolitan Archives: City of London, not available at The National Archives 4. Source: Online Discovery catalogue Reference: ACC/0312/79 Title: Confirmation of feoffment by William Sevenoke, grocer, Robert Colbroke, ironmonger, John Payable, merchant, all citizens of London, to William Brekespere, citizen and merchant of London and Alianor his wife, of the lands, tenements, etc. which the 1st parties had of John Salle, clerk, Thomas atte Hyde of South Stoke parish in Oxon and Richard Holm citizen and woolmonger of London by deed of 15th Dec. 9 Hen.V. Dated at Harefield 29 July 10 Hen.V. [1422]. Description: Witnesses named. Chirograph indenture. No signatures. 3 seals appended. [?merchants' marks]. Date: 29 July 10 Hen.V. 1422 Held by: London Metropolitan Archives: City of London, not available at The National Archives