On 3/06/2017 8:43 AM, Peter Stewart wrote: > > > On 3/06/2017 3:31 AM, Paulo Canedo wrote: >> Em sexta-feira, 2 de junho de 2017 00:04:19 UTC+1, Peter Stewart >> escreveu: >>> On 2/06/2017 4:16 AM, Paulo Canedo wrote: >>>> Dear followers of the newsgroup as you may know Oberto I of Italy >>>> was ancestor of the Italian House of Este he is said by the >>>> chronicles to be the son of a so called Margrave Adalbert who >>>> probably possessed the march of Milan that compressed Lombardy and >>>> part of Liguria. This so called Malgrave Adalbert is of uncertain >>>> ancestry although you can find it quite widespread that he was >>>> probably a son of Guido of Lucca and Marozia. According to the >>>> Italian Wikipedia this theory originated with the book Gli Estensi >>>> of Luciano Chiappini. This book seems to be a very good source >>>> about the House of Este. This particular connection is very >>>> interesting because if correct it would make the House of Este >>>> male-line descendants of Bertha of Lorraine who was herself >>>> male-line great-great-granddaughter of Charlemagne providing the >>>> House of Este with a descent of Charlemagne with only ONE female >>>> generation. I'm wondering however what are the reasons of the >>>> theory that Adalberto was son of Guido. Can anyone in this >>>> newsgroup with the book report them please. Also, >>>> comments are welcome. >>> There is an enormous literature on this subject, and Chiappini's >>> contribution is not usually taken as very persuasive. More plausible is >>> Alessandro Pallavicino's suggestion (in 2005), that Oberto was probably >>> descended from the family of the gastalds of Sorano. There is not >>> enough >>> evidence from Oberto's patrimony and his first appearance (as a count) >>> in April 945 to pin down his origin. >>> >>> Peter Stewart >> What arguments do Chiappini and Pallavicino to support their >> respective thesis. > > There is no Chiappini thesis - he was writing a lightly-sourced book > in a popular series on great families (that includes volumes on such > luminaries as the Rockerfellers, Vanderbilts, Krupps and Fuggers). It > is not a profound study of the Este lineage. He rather summarily > reverted to a discredited idea discussed between Muratori and Leibniz, > that is simply inadmissable. > > Your Adalbert of uncertain ancestry was certainly not a son of Guido > of Lucca and Marozia: they had no sons. I should also have pointed out that this Adalbert of uncertain ancestry was mistaken for the the father of Oberto I by Muratori - but he was misidentifying the persons named in charters of a marquis Adalberto whose father was Oberto the son of another Adalberto. These charters were dated 13 March 1002 and 9 July 1011, and the Oberto in the middle of the genealogical Adalberto sandwich was Oberto II, not Oberto I. We have no evidence (beyond a guess from onomastics) to indicate that the latter's father may have been named Adalberto; and as to what his rank and title may have been, that is also left to guesswork - some conjecture that he may have been the Adalberto who occurs as count of Parma in May 921, but this is far from certain. Peter Stewart