On Tuesday, June 6, 2017 at 7:20:37 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote: > Please help with a good descent from Magna Carta Baron Robert de Vere to > Robert Abell. The following line is found on Leo's site. However, it contains one generation that I am not convinced of, though others here accept it wholeheartedly, even vehemently: 1. Robert de Vere, Earl of Oxford 2. Hugh de Vere, Earl 3. Robert de Vere, Earl 4. Joan de Vere = William de Warenne 5. John de Warenne, Earl of Surrey ........ 6. Edward de Warren of Poynton, said to be his illegitimate son 7. John de Warren 8. Nicholas de Warren 9. Lawrence de Warren 10. Margery de Warren m. John Honford 11. John Honford 12. Katherine Honford m. John Mainwaring of Over Peover 13. Randall Mainwaring of Over Peover 14. Margaret Mainwaring m. Arthur Mainwaring of Ightfield 15. Mary Mainwaring m. Richard Cotton 16. Frances Cotton m. George Abell 17. Robert Abell Fortunately, there is a bypass (but already having typed out the other, I will leave it). 4. Joan de Vere = William de Warenne 5. Alice de Warenne m. Richard Fitz Alan, Earl of Arundel 6. Richard Fitz Alan, Earl 7. Richard Fitz Alan, Earl 8. Elizabeth Fitz Alan m. Robert Goushill 9. Joan Goushill m. Thomas Stanley 10. Katherine Stanley m. John Savage 11. Margaret Savage m. John Honford 12. Katherine Honford m. John Mainwaring There may be other descents - I seem to recall that Abell had multiple lines of descent from Joan Goushill. taf

Em quarta-feira, 7 de junho de 2017 00:41:19 UTC+1, taf escreveu: > On Tuesday, June 6, 2017 at 7:20:37 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote: > > Please help with a good descent from Magna Carta Baron Robert de Vere to > > Robert Abell. > > The following line is found on Leo's site. However, it contains one generation that I am not convinced of, though others here accept it wholeheartedly, even vehemently: > > 1. Robert de Vere, Earl of Oxford > 2. Hugh de Vere, Earl > 3. Robert de Vere, Earl > 4. Joan de Vere = William de Warenne > 5. John de Warenne, Earl of Surrey > ........ > 6. Edward de Warren of Poynton, said to be his illegitimate son > 7. John de Warren > 8. Nicholas de Warren > 9. Lawrence de Warren > 10. Margery de Warren m. John Honford > 11. John Honford > 12. Katherine Honford m. John Mainwaring of Over Peover > 13. Randall Mainwaring of Over Peover > 14. Margaret Mainwaring m. Arthur Mainwaring of Ightfield > 15. Mary Mainwaring m. Richard Cotton > 16. Frances Cotton m. George Abell > 17. Robert Abell > > Fortunately, there is a bypass (but already having typed out the other, I will leave it). > > 4. Joan de Vere = William de Warenne > 5. Alice de Warenne m. Richard Fitz Alan, Earl of Arundel > 6. Richard Fitz Alan, Earl > 7. Richard Fitz Alan, Earl > 8. Elizabeth Fitz Alan m. Robert Goushill > 9. Joan Goushill m. Thomas Stanley > 10. Katherine Stanley m. John Savage > 11. Margaret Savage m. John Honford > 12. Katherine Honford m. John Mainwaring > > There may be other descents - I seem to recall that Abell had multiple lines of descent from Joan Goushill. > > taf In a post of some years ago the genealogical medieval researcher Douglas Richardson says In his will dated 1347, he specifically names a son, Edward, who people have claimed was the ancestor of the Warren family of Poynton. That Edward is indeed the son of John, 8th Earl and Maud de Nerford, as well as the ancestor of the Poynton family is proved by several records. In 1323, Blomefield reports that Sir Ralph de Skeyton conveyed the reversion of the manors of Booton and Skeyton, Norfolk to Maud de Nerford and her sons, Ralph and Edward. Maud subsequently received a release from Sir Ralph de Skeyton's sister and heir, Alice Hauteyn, in 1345. Maud died soon afterwards as she was reported to be deceased later that year. At this point, the manors of Booton and Skeyton, Norfolk fell to her son, Edward de Warenne, in accordance with the settlement of 1323. I personally think this is convincing enough.

On Wednesday, June 7, 2017 at 11:15:45 AM UTC-7, Paulo Canedo wrote: > > The following line is found on Leo's site. However, it contains > > one generation that I am not convinced of, though others here > > accept it wholeheartedly, even vehemently: > > 5. John de Warenne, Earl of Surrey > > ........ > > 6. Edward de Warren of Poynton, said to be his illegitimate son > In a post of some years ago the genealogical medieval researcher Douglas > Richardson says > > In his will > dated 1347, he specifically names a son, Edward, who people have > claimed was the ancestor of the Warren family of Poynton. > That Edward is indeed the son of John, 8th Earl and Maud de Nerford, > as well as the ancestor of the Poynton family is proved by several > records. In 1323, Blomefield reports that Sir Ralph de Skeyton > conveyed the reversion of the manors of Booton and Skeyton, Norfolk to > Maud de Nerford and her sons, Ralph and Edward. Maud subsequently > received a release from Sir Ralph de Skeyton's sister and heir, Alice > Hauteyn, in 1345. Maud died soon afterwards as she was reported to be > deceased later that year. At this point, the manors of Booton and > Skeyton, Norfolk fell to her son, Edward de Warenne, in accordance > with the settlement of 1323. > > I personally think this is convincing enough. Good for you. Unfortunately, it is equally consistent with an alternative explanation. Please note that none of the supposed proof actually links Edward Warren of Poynton to Earl John - it links him to Maud de Nerford, whom the researcher in question insists is identical to the mistress of Earl John, without any proof. In an alternative explanation of these records, another researcher has suggested that the Maud de Nerford who received this grant was a different woman entirely, formerly wife of a member of a junior line of the Warennes, separate from the earls since before the Plantagenet marriage. Given that both reconstructions make Edward son of Maud de Nerford (different women with that name), one cannot distinguish between the two models by proving that Edward was son of Maud de Nerford - evidence must be consistent with one and not the other reconstuction in order to be of value in addressing the question. taf

On Tuesday, June 6, 2017 at 7:41:19 PM UTC-4, taf wrote: > On Tuesday, June 6, 2017 at 7:20:37 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote: > > Please help with a good descent from Magna Carta Baron Robert de Vere to > > Robert Abell. > > The following line is found on Leo's site. However, it contains one generation that I am not convinced of, though others here accept it wholeheartedly, even vehemently: > > 1. Robert de Vere, Earl of Oxford > 2. Hugh de Vere, Earl > 3. Robert de Vere, Earl > 4. Joan de Vere = William de Warenne > 5. John de Warenne, Earl of Surrey > ........ > 6. Edward de Warren of Poynton, said to be his illegitimate son > 7. John de Warren > 8. Nicholas de Warren > 9. Lawrence de Warren > 10. Margery de Warren m. John Honford > 11. John Honford > 12. Katherine Honford m. John Mainwaring of Over Peover > 13. Randall Mainwaring of Over Peover > 14. Margaret Mainwaring m. Arthur Mainwaring of Ightfield > 15. Mary Mainwaring m. Richard Cotton > 16. Frances Cotton m. George Abell > 17. Robert Abell > > Fortunately, there is a bypass (but already having typed out the other, I will leave it). > > 4. Joan de Vere = William de Warenne > 5. Alice de Warenne m. Richard Fitz Alan, Earl of Arundel > 6. Richard Fitz Alan, Earl > 7. Richard Fitz Alan, Earl > 8. Elizabeth Fitz Alan m. Robert Goushill > 9. Joan Goushill m. Thomas Stanley > 10. Katherine Stanley m. John Savage > 11. Margaret Savage m. John Honford > 12. Katherine Honford m. John Mainwaring > > There may be other descents - I seem to recall that Abell had multiple lines of descent from Joan Goushill. > > taf Thank you - your post was extremely helpful. I used the second line - did 5. Alice de Warenne m. Edmund Fitz Alan, Earl of Arundel?

On Tuesday, June 6, 2017 at 7:41:19 PM UTC-4, taf wrote: > On Tuesday, June 6, 2017 at 7:20:37 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote: > > Please help with a good descent from Magna Carta Baron Robert de Vere to > > Robert Abell. > > The following line is found on Leo's site. However, it contains one generation that I am not convinced of, though others here accept it wholeheartedly, even vehemently: > > 1. Robert de Vere, Earl of Oxford > 2. Hugh de Vere, Earl > 3. Robert de Vere, Earl > 4. Joan de Vere = William de Warenne > 5. John de Warenne, Earl of Surrey > ........ > 6. Edward de Warren of Poynton, said to be his illegitimate son > 7. John de Warren > 8. Nicholas de Warren > 9. Lawrence de Warren > 10. Margery de Warren m. John Honford > 11. John Honford > 12. Katherine Honford m. John Mainwaring of Over Peover > 13. Randall Mainwaring of Over Peover > 14. Margaret Mainwaring m. Arthur Mainwaring of Ightfield > 15. Mary Mainwaring m. Richard Cotton > 16. Frances Cotton m. George Abell > 17. Robert Abell > > Fortunately, there is a bypass (but already having typed out the other, I will leave it). > > 4. Joan de Vere = William de Warenne > 5. Alice de Warenne m. Richard Fitz Alan, Earl of Arundel > 6. Richard Fitz Alan, Earl > 7. Richard Fitz Alan, Earl > 8. Elizabeth Fitz Alan m. Robert Goushill > 9. Joan Goushill m. Thomas Stanley > 10. Katherine Stanley m. John Savage > 11. Margaret Savage m. John Honford > 12. Katherine Honford m. John Mainwaring > > There may be other descents - I seem to recall that Abell had multiple lines of descent from Joan Goushill. > > taf Thank you - your posts were extremely helpful - I used this line of descent: 1. Robert de Vere, Knt. = Isabel de Bolebec 2. Hugh de Vere, Knt. = Hawise de Quincy 3. Robert de Vere, Knt. = Alice de Sanford 4. Joan de Vere = William de Warenne, Knt. 5. Alice de Warenne = Edmund Fitz Alan, Earl of Arundel 6. Richard Fitz Alan, Knt., Earl of Arundel = Eleanor of Lancaster 7. Richard Fitz Alan, K.G., Earl of Arundel = Elizabeth de Bohun 8. Elizabeth Fitz Alan = Robert Goushill, Knt. 9. Joan Goushill = Thomas Stanley, K.G. 10. Katherine Stanley = John Savage, K.G. 11. Margaret Savage = John Honford, Esq. 12. Katherine Honford = John Mainwaring, Knt. of Over Peover 13. Randall Mainwaring of Over Peover = Elizabeth Brereton 14. Margaret Mainwaring = Arthur Mainwaring, Knt., of Ightfield 15. Mary Mainwaring = Richard Cotton, Esq. 16. Frances Cotton = George Abell, Gent. 17. Robert Abell, Colonial Immigrant = Joanna I appreciate all of your posts. Valerie