On 5/06/2017 11:22 PM, John Watson wrote: > > Dear all, > > I now have a copy of the Feet of Fines for Gloucestershire, 1199-1299 (£5+p&p). The July 1227 fine mentioned by Doug does not seem to exist, however, there is another fine concerning the manor of Tetbury dated August 1221, which mentions Walter de Beauchamp and Bertha, daughter of William de Braose. > > There is a pdf scan of the relevant fine here, for those who are interested: - > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/77946141/Genealogy%20Notes/CP%2025-1-73-4%20no%2020.pdf > > Here is an edited transcription: > 16 August 1221, Gloucester. Morrow of the Assumption. Walter de Beauchamp (de Bello Campo) petitioner: Reynold de Braose (Breaus) tenant. Half of the manor of Tetbury (Tetebir'), Writ of mort d'ancestor. Reynold acknowledged and granted to Walter £15 of land in the said manor, that is [list of yardlands with tenants]. To hold to Walter in free marriage for the land which William de Braose his [i.e. Walter's] grandfather [avus] gave to Bertha his daughter in marriage, in land and rents in villeinage, with the villeins holding those villeinages with all their families (sequele), and in homage and services of free men, in meadows and common pastures and easements and in all other things belonging to the £15 of land. For this Walter remised and quitclaimed to Reynold the residue of half of the manor. Made in the presence of Robert de Charlton, Walter de Upton, Adam de Charlton, and Ellis le Tailor, who acknowledged that they owed the said services. Endorsed: Glouc' in the fifth year of H[enry III]. Thomasyn. Gloucestr' [Worn] > CP 25/1/73/4, number 20. > C. R. Elrington, ed., Abstracts of Feet of Fines relating to Gloucestershire 1199-1299, Bristol and Gloucestershire Archaeological Society, Gloucestershire Record Series, 16 (2003), 23, no. 124. > > At first sight it would appear that Bertha, daughter of William de Braose was the wife of Walter de Beauchamp, since he was holding half of Tetbury in free marriage, and in fact the editor of the volume has shown this in the index. However, the fine also states that Walter de Beauchamp was the grandson of William de Braose, so Walter must have been the son of Bertha de Braose. > But how can we be sure that the editor had not made a slip in "William de Braose his [i.e. Walter's] grandfather", and that this should instead be "William de Braose his [i.e. Reynold's] grandfather"? Peter Stewart

On 6/06/2017 8:02 AM, Peter Stewart wrote: > > > On 5/06/2017 11:22 PM, John Watson wrote: >> >> Dear all, >> >> I now have a copy of the Feet of Fines for Gloucestershire, 1199-1299 >> (£5+p&p). The July 1227 fine mentioned by Doug does not seem to >> exist, however, there is another fine concerning the manor of Tetbury >> dated August 1221, which mentions Walter de Beauchamp and Bertha, >> daughter of William de Braose. >> >> There is a pdf scan of the relevant fine here, for those who are >> interested: - >> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/77946141/Genealogy%20Notes/CP%2025-1-73-4%20no%2020.pdf >> >> >> Here is an edited transcription: >> 16 August 1221, Gloucester. Morrow of the Assumption. Walter de >> Beauchamp (de Bello Campo) petitioner: Reynold de Braose (Breaus) >> tenant. Half of the manor of Tetbury (Tetebir'), Writ of mort >> d'ancestor. Reynold acknowledged and granted to Walter £15 of land in >> the said manor, that is [list of yardlands with tenants]. To hold to >> Walter in free marriage for the land which William de Braose his >> [i.e. Walter's] grandfather [avus] gave to Bertha his daughter in >> marriage, in land and rents in villeinage, with the villeins holding >> those villeinages with all their families (sequele), and in homage >> and services of free men, in meadows and common pastures and >> easements and in all other things belonging to the £15 of land. For >> this Walter remised and quitclaimed to Reynold the residue of half of >> the manor. Made in the presence of Robert de Charlton, Walter de >> Upton, Adam de Charlton, and Ellis le Tailor, who acknowledged that >> they owed the said services. Endorsed: Glouc' in the fifth year of >> H[enry III]. Thomasyn. Gloucestr' [Worn] >> CP 25/1/73/4, number 20. >> C. R. Elrington, ed., Abstracts of Feet of Fines relating to >> Gloucestershire 1199-1299, Bristol and Gloucestershire Archaeological >> Society, Gloucestershire Record Series, 16 (2003), 23, no. 124. >> >> At first sight it would appear that Bertha, daughter of William de >> Braose was the wife of Walter de Beauchamp, since he was holding half >> of Tetbury in free marriage, and in fact the editor of the volume has >> shown this in the index. However, the fine also states that Walter de >> Beauchamp was the grandson of William de Braose, so Walter must have >> been the son of Bertha de Braose. >> > > But how can we be sure that the editor had not made a slip in "William > de Braose his [i.e. Walter's] grandfather", and that this should > instead be "William de Braose his [i.e. Reynold's] grandfather"? And how can we be sure which Walter de Beauchamp this is who was evidently married to Berta de Braose? Since he was still holding her father's land in free marriage in August 1221, it can't very well be the lord of Elmley - the latter was married to Joan de Mortimer in 1212 and she did not die until 1225. Presumably either Berta was still living in August 1221, or her father's land would have gone to her heir (not to her widower) by then. Peter Stewart