On 3/06/2017 8:43 AM, Peter Stewart wrote: > > > On 3/06/2017 3:31 AM, Paulo Canedo wrote: >> Em sexta-feira, 2 de junho de 2017 00:04:19 UTC+1, Peter Stewart >> escreveu: >>> On 2/06/2017 4:16 AM, Paulo Canedo wrote: >>>> Dear followers of the newsgroup as you may know Oberto I of Italy >>>> was ancestor of the Italian House of Este he is said by the >>>> chronicles to be the son of a so called Margrave Adalbert who >>>> probably possessed the march of Milan that compressed Lombardy and >>>> part of Liguria. This so called Malgrave Adalbert is of uncertain >>>> ancestry although you can find it quite widespread that he was >>>> probably a son of Guido of Lucca and Marozia. According to the >>>> Italian Wikipedia this theory originated with the book Gli Estensi >>>> of Luciano Chiappini. This book seems to be a very good source >>>> about the House of Este. This particular connection is very >>>> interesting because if correct it would make the House of Este >>>> male-line descendants of Bertha of Lorraine who was herself >>>> male-line great-great-granddaughter of Charlemagne providing the >>>> House of Este with a descent of Charlemagne with only ONE female >>>> generation. I'm wondering however what are the reasons of the >>>> theory that Adalberto was son of Guido. Can anyone in this >>>> newsgroup with the book report them please. Also, >>>> comments are welcome. >>> There is an enormous literature on this subject, and Chiappini's >>> contribution is not usually taken as very persuasive. More plausible is >>> Alessandro Pallavicino's suggestion (in 2005), that Oberto was probably >>> descended from the family of the gastalds of Sorano. There is not >>> enough >>> evidence from Oberto's patrimony and his first appearance (as a count) >>> in April 945 to pin down his origin. >>> >>> Peter Stewart >> What arguments do Chiappini and Pallavicino to support their >> respective thesis. > > There is no Chiappini thesis - he was writing a lightly-sourced book > in a popular series on great families (that includes volumes on such > luminaries as the Rockerfellers, Vanderbilts, Krupps and Fuggers). It > is not a profound study of the Este lineage. He rather summarily > reverted to a discredited idea discussed between Muratori and Leibniz, > that is simply inadmissable. > > Your Adalbert of uncertain ancestry was certainly not a son of Guido > of Lucca and Marozia: they had no sons. Guido was succeeded by his > brother Lamberto, who was obliged to fight a duel trying to prove that > he was a son of Marozia when his maternal half-brother King Hugo > denied this. Hugo claimed that Guido and Lamberto were both ring-ins. > Lamberto lost, then he was blinded and imprisoned. There is no > possibility that Guido had left a son named Adalberto who was > by-passed for the paternal inheritance of Lucca and Tuscany, and then > overlooked by the chroniclers who tell us about this family. In any > case, in January 945 Marozia's children transacted a charter together > with some of their cousins in which no Adalberto appears, and with no > reference to any purported rights of Oberto in their business. > > In the vast literature on the subject of Oberto's origins more > substantial conjectures were raised, for instance attempting to link > him as a descendant to the Supponid dukes of Spoleto. This too is not > accepted today. Pallavicino's conjecture was based on Oberto's > possession of Luni, Tortona and Genoa and the recurrence of the name > Adalberto among his descendants - one of the two main lines of descent > from him is known from this name. The gastalds of Sorano were also > Adalberti, and geographically plausible antecessors for Oberto. I should have added that this conjecture of Pallavicino was based on a theory first proposed by Pietro Ferrari in *La chiesa di S.Bartolomeo 'de donnicato' vicino a Pontremoli, gli Adalberti e le origini obertenghe* (1938), and developed by Ubaldo Formentini in 'La terza dinastia dei conti di Parma e le origini obertenghe', *Archivio storico per le provincie parmensi*, quarta serie 1 (1945-48). Peter Stewart