On Friday, 2 June 2017 09:56:59 UTC+1, Doug Thompson wrote: > On Thursday, June 1, 2017 at 11:00:29 PM UTC+1, Peter Stewart wrote: > > On 2/06/2017 5:56 AM, Doug Thompson wrote: > > > I know this is adding another possible layer of confusion but - > > > > > > What if, during Wm de Braose's custody of Elmley he married Berta to the heir. That would have been William, Walter's older brother who died in 1211. The Tebury jurors may then have had a correct descent of the land from William to Walter etc. but, since it was before their own lifetimes, made an assumption that the William was Walter's father rather than his brother! > > > > > > Since this is the only evidence for a Braose Beachamp marriage at all, the small error may have caused us all this confusion. It would seem to fit the time scales better than a marriage to the father, who seems to have had a wife called Amice according to many. > > > > The younger William de Beauchamp (brother of Walter) is said to have > > married Jeanne de Saint-Valery and to have died at around 20 years of > > age. Can you let us know if you think this is incorrect, and what the > > evidence is? > > > > Peter Stewart > > I have seen Joan de St Valery married to two different Williams in the pedigree but not this one before! I thought she was invented as a device to explain the Beachamp possession of the Tetbury lands, which Bertha's marriage does better. > > Is there any evidence at all for the existence of this Joan de St Valery? > > Doug Thompson So who was the William de Beauchamp who married Maud de Lucy daughter of Geoffrey de Lucy? They had a daughter Maud who married firstly Geoffrey de Lacelles (d. 1204) and secondly Richard de Rivers (d. 1222). Regards, John

On Friday, June 2, 2017 at 11:16:04 AM UTC+1, John Watson wrote: > On Friday, 2 June 2017 09:56:59 UTC+1, Doug Thompson wrote: > > On Thursday, June 1, 2017 at 11:00:29 PM UTC+1, Peter Stewart wrote: > > > On 2/06/2017 5:56 AM, Doug Thompson wrote: > > > > I know this is adding another possible layer of confusion but - > > > > > > > > What if, during Wm de Braose's custody of Elmley he married Berta to the heir. That would have been William, Walter's older brother who died in 1211. The Tebury jurors may then have had a correct descent of the land from William to Walter etc. but, since it was before their own lifetimes, made an assumption that the William was Walter's father rather than his brother! > > > > > > > > Since this is the only evidence for a Braose Beachamp marriage at all, the small error may have caused us all this confusion. It would seem to fit the time scales better than a marriage to the father, who seems to have had a wife called Amice according to many. > > > > > > The younger William de Beauchamp (brother of Walter) is said to have > > > married Jeanne de Saint-Valery and to have died at around 20 years of > > > age. Can you let us know if you think this is incorrect, and what the > > > evidence is? > > > > > > Peter Stewart > > > > I have seen Joan de St Valery married to two different Williams in the pedigree but not this one before! I thought she was invented as a device to explain the Beachamp possession of the Tetbury lands, which Bertha's marriage does better. > > > > Is there any evidence at all for the existence of this Joan de St Valery? > > > > Doug Thompson > > So who was the William de Beauchamp who married Maud de Lucy daughter of Geoffrey de Lucy? They had a daughter Maud who married firstly Geoffrey de Lacelles (d. 1204) and secondly Richard de Rivers (d. 1222). > > Regards, > > John I think this is a William de Beauchamp from a different family group. Doug

> So who was the William de Beauchamp who married Maud de Lucy daughter of Geoffrey de Lucy? They had a daughter Maud who married firstly Geoffrey de Lacelles (d. 1204) and secondly Richard de Rivers (d. 1222). > > Regards, > > John I think this William comes from a different family group. Doug

> So who was the William de Beauchamp who married Maud de Lucy daughter of Geoffrey de Lucy? They had a daughter Maud who married firstly Geoffrey de Lacelles (d. 1204) and secondly Richard de Rivers (d. 1222). > > Regards, > > John I think this William comes from a different family group. Doug