On Tuesday, August 7, 2007 at 7:59:57 PM UTC-5, John P. Ravilious wrote: > Tuesday, 7 August, 2007 > > > Dear Michael, Hal, Brom, et al., > > Quite some time ago (a month of Sundays, or more), Hal Bradley > had > kindly provided me with the text of C. T. Clay's article on the Lacys > of Cromwellbottom [sic]. I had planned on dealing with this rather > more quickly - hopefully any advances that occur in dealing with this > family will outweigh this or any other deficiency on my part. > > The article comprises some 23 pages, including a detailed and > well > documented pedigree of the family and a useful one page 16 generation > chart. The first 10 generations are given below. > > The earliest issue dealt with by Clay was that of the > identification and ancestry of Gilbert de Lacy, first of the > Cromwellbotham family. Gilbert de Lacy's career, esp. with regard to > the lands he held in the lordship of Rochdale, was also dealt with by > Farrer in his Lancashire Inquests. Details of this discussion can be > seen in the SGM archives [1]. As to his ancestry, Clay wrote: > > ' The late Mr. William Farrer, in a note in his Early > Yorkshire Charters (iii, 405), has indicated that the > ancestor from whom this family was actually descended > was a certain Gilbert de Lascy, who, at the beginning > of the thirteenth century, held a sixth part of the > lordship of Rochdale in right of his wife, Agnes de > Owram; and the Lancashire evidence relating to Rochdale > (see below in the pedigree) seems quite conclusive on > this matter. > The first point, then, which arises is the parentage > of Gilbert. The evidence which is produced below tends > to prove that he was an illegitimate son of Robert de > Lascy, lord of Pontefract, who died in 1193, the last > male representative of the first Lascy house, and who > was succeeded in the Lascy fee by Roger de Lascy, the > grandson of his first cousin, Albreda de Lisours, from > whom the second Lascy line descended. The evidence is > not sufficiently conclusive to amount to an actual > proof; but its authenticity was accepted by Mr. > Farrer. Certainly Gilbert witnessed several of Robert > de Lascy's charters, and was granted land by Robert in > Rushton in Bowland. His marriage with Agnes de Owram, > through whom he obtained a sixth of Rochdale, was due > to Roger de Lascy, who may have had special motives in > benefiting an illegitimate son of his > predecessor. ' [2] > > If this identification is correct, the Lacy family of > Cromwellbotham (and the cadets of Brearley, etc.) would then > have further ancestry among the earlier de Lacy and de Vesci > (alleged) families. > > Further posts with regard to Clay's article, further evidence > which has appeared or will appear, and related issues concerning the > Lacy family and their near relations will follow. As always, any > relevant additional documentation, comment or criticism is welcome. > Also, should anyone have an interest in the subsequent 6 generations > of the genealogical chart in the article (Lacy of Cromwellbotham and > Leventhorpe, ca. 1499 to 1665), please let me know. > > Cheers, > > John * > > > _______________________________________________________ > > LACY OF CROMWELLBOTTOM [3] > > > > [Born c. I. GILBERT DE LACY = Agnes, dau. of > 1150-70] (?) illegitimate son of Robert de I John de Owram > Lascy (d. 1193), had 1/3 of Rochdale I living 1231 > in frank-marriage; m. 1193-1202 I > I > _________________________I > I > [c. 1195] II. JOHN DE LACY = > of Cromwellbottom I > living c. 1246 I > I > ________________________I________________ > I I > [c. 1225] III. JOHN DE LACY = (?) Alice dau. of John the > living 1255-c. 1290 I Alan de Pennington clerk > I > _______________I > I > [c. 1265] IV. JOHN DE LACY = Margaret, dau. of > m. c. 1290; d. 1307-10 I Sir Hugh de Eland > I widow in 1309-10 > ________________I_______ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > I I I > [c. 1291] Va. HENRY DE LACY Vb. THOMAS DE LACY MARGARET > d. 1359-61 d. ante 1353 m. ante 1315-16 > = (1) Beatrice = (?) Margaret, living 1335 > = (2) Joan, dau. of Richard = Tho. de > living 1369 de Tong Thornhill > I I > ________________________I _ _ _ _ _ I____ > I I I I I > [c. 1320- VIa. JOHN VIb. RICHARD HUGH THOMAS Richard de > 30] LACY, held LACY, heir to living of the Thornhill > Cromwellbottom his brother, 1374-5 Eland of Fixby > in 1353, d. 1397 d. 1416-24 = feud > I > _______I > I > [c. 1370] VII. JOHN LACY = > I > __________________I _ _ _ _ _ _ > I I > [c. 1395] VIII. JOHN LACY = (?) Emmota ISABEL = John Peck > d. 1474, married I of Wakefield > twice I b. c. 1390 > > _________________I______________________________________ > I I I I I I > I > [c. IX. WILLIAM RICHARD GILBERT JOAN AGNES DAU. > I > 1420] LACY, dvp probable ancestor = = = > I > c. 1444 ancestor of Lacy Nicholas Percival John > I > = Joan (?) of Lacy of Savile son of Rish- > I > dau. of Sir of Melton Brearley of the John worth > I > William Mowbray Bank in Amyas > I > Scargill Southowram > I > I________ > ____I > ____I____________________ I > I I I > [c. X. THOMAS LACY EDWARD LACY DAU. > 1440] b.c. 1440, d. 1497-98 a priest, = (?) Brian > = Ellen, dau. of living 1487 Thornhill > Sir Robert Nevile of Fixby > of Liversedge > I > I > > > > NOTES > > [1] Cf. J. Ravilious, <Tempest of Staynforth & kinship with > Lacy of Cromwellbotham>, SGM, 27 Sept 2006 et seq. The text > provided therein is from W. Farrer, Lancashire Inquests, Extents > and Feudal Aids, p. 39. > > [2] C. T. Clay, The Family of Lacy of Cromwellbottom and > Leventhorpe, Miscellanea (Leeds: published for The > Thoresby Society, 1928), 28:468. > > [3] Ibid., chart facing p. 474. > > > * John P. Ravilious Hello John, I am currently researching the Cromwellbottom branch of the de Lacy family and would be very interested in any further information you can provide regarding Gilbert de Lascy, as well as the subsequent 6 generations on the genealogical chart. I am particularly curious in regard to his alleged illegitimate descent from Robert de Lascy. Any further proof? Also, I would be interested in accessing C.T. Clay's original article on the Lacy's of Cromwellbottom if possible. Thanks for any help you might provide me! Bill H.

On Thursday, 25 May 2017 17:54:35 UTC+1, [email protected] wrote: > On Tuesday, August 7, 2007 at 7:59:57 PM UTC-5, John P. Ravilious wrote: > > Tuesday, 7 August, 2007 > > > > > > Dear Michael, Hal, Brom, et al., > > > > Quite some time ago (a month of Sundays, or more), Hal Bradley > > had > > kindly provided me with the text of C. T. Clay's article on the Lacys > > of Cromwellbottom [sic]. I had planned on dealing with this rather > > more quickly - hopefully any advances that occur in dealing with this > > family will outweigh this or any other deficiency on my part. > > > > The article comprises some 23 pages, including a detailed and > > well > > documented pedigree of the family and a useful one page 16 generation > > chart. The first 10 generations are given below. > > > > The earliest issue dealt with by Clay was that of the > > identification and ancestry of Gilbert de Lacy, first of the > > Cromwellbotham family. Gilbert de Lacy's career, esp. with regard to > > the lands he held in the lordship of Rochdale, was also dealt with by > > Farrer in his Lancashire Inquests. Details of this discussion can be > > seen in the SGM archives [1]. As to his ancestry, Clay wrote: > > > > ' The late Mr. William Farrer, in a note in his Early > > Yorkshire Charters (iii, 405), has indicated that the > > ancestor from whom this family was actually descended > > was a certain Gilbert de Lascy, who, at the beginning > > of the thirteenth century, held a sixth part of the > > lordship of Rochdale in right of his wife, Agnes de > > Owram; and the Lancashire evidence relating to Rochdale > > (see below in the pedigree) seems quite conclusive on > > this matter. > > The first point, then, which arises is the parentage > > of Gilbert. The evidence which is produced below tends > > to prove that he was an illegitimate son of Robert de > > Lascy, lord of Pontefract, who died in 1193, the last > > male representative of the first Lascy house, and who > > was succeeded in the Lascy fee by Roger de Lascy, the > > grandson of his first cousin, Albreda de Lisours, from > > whom the second Lascy line descended. The evidence is > > not sufficiently conclusive to amount to an actual > > proof; but its authenticity was accepted by Mr. > > Farrer. Certainly Gilbert witnessed several of Robert > > de Lascy's charters, and was granted land by Robert in > > Rushton in Bowland. His marriage with Agnes de Owram, > > through whom he obtained a sixth of Rochdale, was due > > to Roger de Lascy, who may have had special motives in > > benefiting an illegitimate son of his > > predecessor. ' [2] > > > > If this identification is correct, the Lacy family of > > Cromwellbotham (and the cadets of Brearley, etc.) would then > > have further ancestry among the earlier de Lacy and de Vesci > > (alleged) families. > > > > Further posts with regard to Clay's article, further evidence > > which has appeared or will appear, and related issues concerning the > > Lacy family and their near relations will follow. As always, any > > relevant additional documentation, comment or criticism is welcome. > > Also, should anyone have an interest in the subsequent 6 generations > > of the genealogical chart in the article (Lacy of Cromwellbotham and > > Leventhorpe, ca. 1499 to 1665), please let me know. > > > > Cheers, > > > > John * > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > > > > LACY OF CROMWELLBOTTOM [3] > > > > > > > > [Born c. I. GILBERT DE LACY = Agnes, dau. of > > 1150-70] (?) illegitimate son of Robert de I John de Owram > > Lascy (d. 1193), had 1/3 of Rochdale I living 1231 > > in frank-marriage; m. 1193-1202 I > > I > > _________________________I > > I > > [c. 1195] II. JOHN DE LACY = > > of Cromwellbottom I > > living c. 1246 I > > I > > ________________________I________________ > > I I > > [c. 1225] III. JOHN DE LACY = (?) Alice dau. of John the > > living 1255-c. 1290 I Alan de Pennington clerk > > I > > _______________I > > I > > [c. 1265] IV. JOHN DE LACY = Margaret, dau. of > > m. c. 1290; d. 1307-10 I Sir Hugh de Eland > > I widow in 1309-10 > > ________________I_______ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > > I I I > > [c. 1291] Va. HENRY DE LACY Vb. THOMAS DE LACY MARGARET > > d. 1359-61 d. ante 1353 m. ante 1315-16 > > = (1) Beatrice = (?) Margaret, living 1335 > > = (2) Joan, dau. of Richard = Tho. de > > living 1369 de Tong Thornhill > > I I > > ________________________I _ _ _ _ _ I____ > > I I I I I > > [c. 1320- VIa. JOHN VIb. RICHARD HUGH THOMAS Richard de > > 30] LACY, held LACY, heir to living of the Thornhill > > Cromwellbottom his brother, 1374-5 Eland of Fixby > > in 1353, d. 1397 d. 1416-24 = feud > > I > > _______I > > I > > [c. 1370] VII. JOHN LACY = > > I > > __________________I _ _ _ _ _ _ > > I I > > [c. 1395] VIII. JOHN LACY = (?) Emmota ISABEL = John Peck > > d. 1474, married I of Wakefield > > twice I b. c. 1390 > > > > _________________I______________________________________ > > I I I I I I > > I > > [c. IX. WILLIAM RICHARD GILBERT JOAN AGNES DAU. > > I > > 1420] LACY, dvp probable ancestor = = = > > I > > c. 1444 ancestor of Lacy Nicholas Percival John > > I > > = Joan (?) of Lacy of Savile son of Rish- > > I > > dau. of Sir of Melton Brearley of the John worth > > I > > William Mowbray Bank in Amyas > > I > > Scargill Southowram > > I > > I________ > > ____I > > ____I____________________ I > > I I I > > [c. X. THOMAS LACY EDWARD LACY DAU. > > 1440] b.c. 1440, d. 1497-98 a priest, = (?) Brian > > = Ellen, dau. of living 1487 Thornhill > > Sir Robert Nevile of Fixby > > of Liversedge > > I > > I > > > > > > > > NOTES > > > > [1] Cf. J. Ravilious, <Tempest of Staynforth & kinship with > > Lacy of Cromwellbotham>, SGM, 27 Sept 2006 et seq. The text > > provided therein is from W. Farrer, Lancashire Inquests, Extents > > and Feudal Aids, p. 39. > > > > [2] C. T. Clay, The Family of Lacy of Cromwellbottom and > > Leventhorpe, Miscellanea (Leeds: published for The > > Thoresby Society, 1928), 28:468. > > > > [3] Ibid., chart facing p. 474. > > > > > > * John P. Ravilious > > Hello John, > > I am currently researching the Cromwellbottom branch of the de Lacy family and would be very interested in any further information you can provide regarding Gilbert de Lascy, as well as the subsequent 6 generations on the genealogical chart. I am particularly curious in regard to his alleged illegitimate descent from Robert de Lascy. Any further proof? > > Also, I would be interested in accessing C.T. Clay's original article on the Lacy's of Cromwellbottom if possible. > > Thanks for any help you might provide me! > > Bill H. Hi Bill, you can read the article here: - Charles T, Clay, "The Family of Cromwellbottom and Leventhorpe," Miscellanea, Thoresby Society, 28-4 (1927), 468-490. https://archive.org/stream/publicationsv28p4thor#page/468/mode/1up Regards, john Watson