On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 5:58:54 PM UTC-7, Doug Thompson wrote: > > Wow! Great find. Hugh de Mortimer died Nov 1227 so this fine was only > > months before his death. If Bertha was a wife of Walter de Beauchamp > > then it was a wife between Joane Mortimer (died 1225) and his surviving > > wife Ankarat (married by 1256, survived to 1280s). > > Not that simple I'm afraid. One or both of these other wives will probably > have to be discarded. The evidence for their marriages will have to be > reassessed. May take a while. With all the caveats the use of the source entails, Cawley in MedLands says (footnotes removed) that "The Annals of Worcester record that “Rogerus de Mortuo Mari…filiam suam” married “Waltero de Bello Campo.” The Annals of Worcester record the death in 1225 of “Johanna de Mortuo Mari uxor Willelmi de Bello Campo.”" If the same source (is this the only source?) says William in one place and Walter in the other, then I know where I would start this reevaluation. taf

On Wednesday, 31 May 2017 02:29:17 UTC+1, taf wrote: > On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 5:58:54 PM UTC-7, Doug Thompson wrote: > > > > Wow! Great find. Hugh de Mortimer died Nov 1227 so this fine was only > > > months before his death. If Bertha was a wife of Walter de Beauchamp > > > then it was a wife between Joane Mortimer (died 1225) and his surviving > > > wife Ankarat (married by 1256, survived to 1280s). > > > > Not that simple I'm afraid. One or both of these other wives will probably > > have to be discarded. The evidence for their marriages will have to be > > reassessed. May take a while. > > With all the caveats the use of the source entails, Cawley in MedLands says (footnotes removed) that "The Annals of Worcester record that “Rogerus de Mortuo Mari…filiam suam” married “Waltero de Bello Campo.” The Annals of Worcester record the death in 1225 of “Johanna de Mortuo Mari uxor Willelmi de Bello Campo.”" If the same source (is this the only source?) says William in one place and Walter in the other, then I know where I would start this reevaluation. > > taf Hi all, The evidence is as follows: In 1212, Roger de Mortimer paid 3,000 marks to have the custody of Walter de Beauchamp and married him to his daughter:- 1212, Rogerus de Mortuo Mari finem fecit pro Waltero de Bello Campo et terris ejus pro iii. m. marcis, et maritaviit ei filiam suam. Henry Richards Luard, Annales Monastici, vol. 4, Annales Prioratus de Wigornia (London, 1869), 400. The annals of Worcester record the death in 1225 of Joan wife of William de Beauchamp:- 1225, [Died] Johanna de Mortuo Mari uxor Willelmi de Bello Campo. Henry Richards Luard, Annales Monastici, vol. 4, Annales Prioratus de Wigornia (London, 1869), 418. The fine of 3,000 marks was still outstanding in 1229, after the death of Hugh de Mortimer:- 8 July 1229, For Ralph de Mortimer. To the barons of the Exchequer. The king has pardoned to Ralph de Mortimer, brother and heir of Hugh de Mortimer, for his faithful service, up to £500 of the £511 2s. 4d. that is exacted from the same Ralph at the Exchequer for the same Hugh of the fine which Roger de Mortimer, father of Hugh and Ralph, made with King John, the king’s father, for having custody of Walter de Beauchamp. Calendar of Fine Rolls 13 Henry III, No. 255. I can't imagine Roger de Mortimer paying (or owing) such a huge amount of money if Walter de Beauchamp did not marry his daughter. Regards, John

On Wednesday, 31 May 2017 03:08:03 UTC+1, John Watson wrote: > Hi all, > > The evidence is as follows: > > In 1212, Roger de Mortimer paid 3,000 marks to have the custody of Walter de Beauchamp and married him to his daughter:- > 1212, Rogerus de Mortuo Mari finem fecit pro Waltero de Bello Campo et terris ejus pro iii. m. marcis, et maritaviit ei filiam suam. > Henry Richards Luard, Annales Monastici, vol. 4, Annales Prioratus de Wigornia (London, 1869), 400. > > The annals of Worcester record the death in 1225 of Joan wife of William de Beauchamp:- > 1225, [Died] Johanna de Mortuo Mari uxor Willelmi de Bello Campo. > Henry Richards Luard, Annales Monastici, vol. 4, Annales Prioratus de Wigornia (London, 1869), 418. > > The fine of 3,000 marks was still outstanding in 1229, after the death of Hugh de Mortimer:- > 8 July 1229, For Ralph de Mortimer. To the barons of the Exchequer. The king has pardoned to Ralph de Mortimer, brother and heir of Hugh de Mortimer, for his faithful service, up to £500 of the £511 2s. 4d. that is exacted from the same Ralph at the Exchequer for the same Hugh of the fine which Roger de Mortimer, father of Hugh and Ralph, made with King John, the king’s father, for having custody of Walter de Beauchamp. > Calendar of Fine Rolls 13 Henry III, No. 255. > > I can't imagine Roger de Mortimer paying (or owing) such a huge amount of money if Walter de Beauchamp did not marry his daughter. > > Regards, > > John A further piece of evidence that Walter de Beauchamp was married to Joan, daughter of Roger de Mortimer appears in the will of his son William de Beauchamp, dated January 1268/9 ... "for my soul and the souls of Isabella my wife and Isabella de Mortuo Mari and all the faithful dead" ... J. W. Willis Bund, Register of Bishop Godfrey Giffard, Part 1: 1268-1273, Worcestershire Historical Society (1898), 7-8. https://books.google.com/books?id=xYFKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA8 Isabella de Mortuo Mari was no doubt William's maternal grandmother, Isabel de Ferrières, wife of Roger de Mortimer. She died before 29 April 1252 (CP, ix, 273). See also: http://deeds.library.utoronto.ca/charters/00320043 Regards, John