Op dinsdag 9 mei 2017 20:51:49 UTC+2 schreef Hans Vogels: Count Bruno was one of the pretenders in July 1002 when king Heinrich II was chosen. That seems to be his last mentioning. Dr. Wilhelm Wegener, "Genealogische Tafeln zur Mitteleuropäischen Geschichte", blz.196 http://www.manfred-hiebl.de/genealogie-mittelalter/schwaben/hermann_4_herzog_von_schwaben_1039_babenberger/hermann_4_herzog_von_schwaben_+_1038.html suggests that Ernst I, husband (married before 1012) of Gisela, was already married before Christmas 1004 when he appears as (Schwäbischer) Pfalzgraf, which can only be explained through his marriage. If we accept count Bruno as the first husband of Gisela, he must have died early 1004 at the latest. His son Liudolf could have been born 1003/1004. >From the other side, nothing is certain of the marriage year of Gisela's parents. It varies from 986 to 988. With a Gisela as their eldest daughter, one can be certain that Gisela's first marriage must be in or around 1002, with Liudolf as her only child with count Bruno. Hans Vogels > Op dinsdag 9 mei 2017 02:08:30 UTC+2 schreef Peter Stewart: > > On 9/05/2017 7:28 AM, Paulo Canedo wrote: > > > Onde thing we can be pretty sure of, Gisela was born before 999 since placing her birth in 999 leads to an unbeliveable short chronology. > > > > > > > I would say impossibly short, and in conflict with a good deal of > > circumstantial evidence. > > Hermann von Reichenau seems to be the source of the knowledge that duke Hermann II had three daughters and one son. The duke had only daughters and went on a pilgrimage for a son, one that thereafter indeed was born. > > That would mean that at least 2 daughters have to be born before the son Hermann III. The son was named parvulus in 1003 when his father died, adhuc puerulus in 1004 and died on 1 April 1012 as a puer/adolescentulus. > > Hermann III functioned in 1007 as dux (rechtsfähig) that could mean > a. he was born no later than January 992 (15 years) or > b. he was born in/before January 995 (full 12 years). > > Paul Friedrich von Stälin, "Geschichte Württembergs", 1882, seite 194. > http://www.manfred-hiebl.de/genealogie-mittelalter/schwaben/hermann_3_herzog_von_schwaben_1012_konradiner/hermann_3_herzog_von_schwaben_1012.html > > From this can be concluded that the two eldest (perhaps all three) sisters were born before 992 (most likely). > > Hans Vogels > > > > > > > > > Gisela's first husband had apparently been murdered some while before > > November 1014, and her son by him must have been been born in the first > > few years of the 11th century, for reasons set out in the Henry Project > > Agatha page. > > > > Gisela's sister Mathilde was married by April 1005, probably by January > > 1003 (the dating of the synod at which her marriage was denounced by > > Heinrich II is uncertain). Mathilde has usually been thought the elder > > of the two sisters, but this is most probably a specious hold-over from > > a time when historians had the order of Gisela's marriages confused. > > When their brother died in 1012 his duchy of Swabia was given to > > Gisela's second husband - Mathilde was a widow at the time, but she had > > two sons. There is no evidence that Heinrich II passed them over for the > > inheritance as sons of the eldest daughter, and in any case by 1019 > > Gisela's third husband Konrad II (then duke of Franconia) was in > > alliance with Mathilde's elder son in strife against the husband of her > > younger sister Beatrix - the latter was evidently compensated for the > > loss of her inheritance in Swabia with property in Styria. Neither > > Mathilde or Beatrix (or their husbands) seem to have contested with > > Gisela over the duchy of Swabia. When it was taken from one of Gisela's > > sons in 1030 it was given to another, not to the elder son of Mathilde > > (who subsequently became duke of Carinthia). > > > > Peter Stewart

Em terça-feira, 9 de maio de 2017 20:50:29 UTC+1, Hans Vogels escreveu: > Op dinsdag 9 mei 2017 20:51:49 UTC+2 schreef Hans Vogels: > > Count Bruno was one of the pretenders in July 1002 when king Heinrich II was chosen. That seems to be his last mentioning. > > Dr. Wilhelm Wegener, "Genealogische Tafeln zur Mitteleuropäischen Geschichte", blz.196 > > http://www.manfred-hiebl.de/genealogie-mittelalter/schwaben/hermann_4_herzog_von_schwaben_1039_babenberger/hermann_4_herzog_von_schwaben_+_1038.html > > suggests that Ernst I, husband (married before 1012) of Gisela, was already married before Christmas 1004 when he appears as (Schwäbischer) Pfalzgraf, which can only be explained through his marriage. > > If we accept count Bruno as the first husband of Gisela, he must have died early 1004 at the latest. His son Liudolf could have been born 1003/1004. > > From the other side, nothing is certain of the marriage year of Gisela's parents. It varies from 986 to 988. With a Gisela as their eldest daughter, one can be certain that Gisela's first marriage must be in or around 1002, with Liudolf as her only child with count Bruno. > > Hans Vogels > > > > > > > > Op dinsdag 9 mei 2017 02:08:30 UTC+2 schreef Peter Stewart: > > > On 9/05/2017 7:28 AM, Paulo Canedo wrote: > > > > Onde thing we can be pretty sure of, Gisela was born before 999 since placing her birth in 999 leads to an unbeliveable short chronology. > > > > > > > > > > I would say impossibly short, and in conflict with a good deal of > > > circumstantial evidence. > > > > Hermann von Reichenau seems to be the source of the knowledge that duke Hermann II had three daughters and one son. The duke had only daughters and went on a pilgrimage for a son, one that thereafter indeed was born. > > > > That would mean that at least 2 daughters have to be born before the son Hermann III. The son was named parvulus in 1003 when his father died, adhuc puerulus in 1004 and died on 1 April 1012 as a puer/adolescentulus. > > > > Hermann III functioned in 1007 as dux (rechtsfähig) that could mean > > a. he was born no later than January 992 (15 years) or > > b. he was born in/before January 995 (full 12 years). > > > > Paul Friedrich von Stälin, "Geschichte Württembergs", 1882, seite 194. > > http://www.manfred-hiebl.de/genealogie-mittelalter/schwaben/hermann_3_herzog_von_schwaben_1012_konradiner/hermann_3_herzog_von_schwaben_1012.html > > > > From this can be concluded that the two eldest (perhaps all three) sisters were born before 992 (most likely). > > > > Hans Vogels > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gisela's first husband had apparently been murdered some while before > > > November 1014, and her son by him must have been been born in the first > > > few years of the 11th century, for reasons set out in the Henry Project > > > Agatha page. > > > > > > Gisela's sister Mathilde was married by April 1005, probably by January > > > 1003 (the dating of the synod at which her marriage was denounced by > > > Heinrich II is uncertain). Mathilde has usually been thought the elder > > > of the two sisters, but this is most probably a specious hold-over from > > > a time when historians had the order of Gisela's marriages confused. > > > When their brother died in 1012 his duchy of Swabia was given to > > > Gisela's second husband - Mathilde was a widow at the time, but she had > > > two sons. There is no evidence that Heinrich II passed them over for the > > > inheritance as sons of the eldest daughter, and in any case by 1019 > > > Gisela's third husband Konrad II (then duke of Franconia) was in > > > alliance with Mathilde's elder son in strife against the husband of her > > > younger sister Beatrix - the latter was evidently compensated for the > > > loss of her inheritance in Swabia with property in Styria. Neither > > > Mathilde or Beatrix (or their husbands) seem to have contested with > > > Gisela over the duchy of Swabia. When it was taken from one of Gisela's > > > sons in 1030 it was given to another, not to the elder son of Mathilde > > > (who subsequently became duke of Carinthia). > > > > > > Peter Stewart It seems very unlikely that she was already married with her econd husband Ernest in 1004 since she would only have 14-15 years old she probably only married in 1009 or so.

The minimum marriage age for girls by medieval Canon law was 12 years with the restriction that the girl in question reached puberty. If Gisela was 14/15 at the time of her first marriage and being born at the end of the '80, a first marriage ca.1002 is not troublesome, being the year of the latest known mentioning of count Bruno. As Peter remarked, the remarriage end 1004 was a conclusion based on an inauthentic charter. It need not be that early. When in 1015 duke Ernst I died his eldest son was still a minor. Eduard Hlawitschka assumes that Ernst and Gisela married around 1009 as in his opinion their eldest son Ernst II was born 1009/1010. Ernst II appears firstly in 1025. http://www.manfred-hiebl.de/genealogie-mittelalter/schwaben/ernst_1_herzog_von_schwaben_1015_babenberger/hlawitschka.html If we accept a birth year < Jan. 992 for brother Hermann III. His eldest sister (he had 3) could easily have been born ca.988. That would make her 14 years in 1002. Hans Vogels > > It seems very unlikely that she was already married with her econd husband Ernest in 1004 since she would only have 14-15 years old she probably only married in 1009 or so.

On 10/05/2017 2:41 PM, Hans Vogels wrote: > The minimum marriage age for girls by medieval Canon law was 12 years with the restriction that the girl in question reached puberty. If Gisela was 14/15 at the time of her first marriage and being born at the end of the '80, a first marriage ca.1002 is not troublesome, being the year of the latest known mentioning of count Bruno. The timing of Bruno's death is a vexed issue - he is usually identified as the Bruno whose murder in his own home some time before was brought up in the context of a crime committed by Thietmar of Merseberg's nephew Werner in November 1014. Thietmar himself was present on 14 November 1014 when Heinrich II was tasking counsel on the matter. Perhaps Bruno's murder had taken place more than 5 years earlier, but I doubt if it would still have been at the front of people's minds if it was much longer ago than that. Funnily enough, the standard MGH edition of Thietmar's chronicle makes a strange blunder over this - the editor agreed that Bruno of Brunswick was the man murdered before November 1014, yet the index placed his death in 1016. Maybe he, like Banquo's ghost, needed to be dispatched a second time. Peter Stewart

On 10/05/2017 5:50 AM, Hans Vogels wrote: > Op dinsdag 9 mei 2017 20:51:49 UTC+2 schreef Hans Vogels: > > Count Bruno was one of the pretenders in July 1002 when king Heinrich II was chosen. That seems to be his last mentioning. > > Dr. Wilhelm Wegener, "Genealogische Tafeln zur Mitteleuropäischen Geschichte", blz.196 > > http://www.manfred-hiebl.de/genealogie-mittelalter/schwaben/hermann_4_herzog_von_schwaben_1039_babenberger/hermann_4_herzog_von_schwaben_+_1038.html > > suggests that Ernst I, husband (married before 1012) of Gisela, was already married before Christmas 1004 when he appears as (Schwäbischer) Pfalzgraf, which can only be explained through his marriage. This is based on an inauthentic charter from St Stephan abbey in Strasbourg, and the dating is one of the give-away elements (the charter states 1005, but with other details indicating 1004). By the way, it is unfortunate that the citation on Genealogie-Mittelalter is to Wilhelm Wegener, who was the editor, instead of Franz Tyroller who was the author. Peter Stewart