On Wednesday, May 31, 2017 at 8:13:36 AM UTC+1, Peter Stewart wrote: > On 31/05/2017 4:20 PM, John Watson wrote: > > On Wednesday, 31 May 2017 04:49:24 UTC+1, Peter Stewart wrote: > >> On 31/05/2017 1:18 PM, taf wrote: > >>> On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 7:31:43 PM UTC-7, Peter Stewart wrote: > >>> > >>>> Maybe the name William is a slip of the editor, silently supplying, > >>>> rather than the 14th-century annalist - the manuscript (BL Cotton. > >>>> Caligula A x) is not online as far as I can tell, but perhaps only the > >>>> initial W. is given there under 1225. > >>> I have seen the same slip in reverse, where an ipm gives Walter when the person in question was clearly William, and I always suspected a similar cause, the use of a W. somewhere in the transmission process. > >> This can't very well be the case with the Sele priory record "excepting > >> the services of Walter de Beauchamp and Hugh de Mortimer, and their > >> heirs by the daughters of William de Brewse", since it was dated July > >> 1227 and William the (generally supposed) husband of Berta de Braiose > >> had died in 1197. > >> > >> Where did this information come from? How certain is it that the > >> original text doesn't mean "and their heirs descended from the daughters > >> of William de Brewse", i.e. allowing for Walter de Beauchamp himself to > >> be the son rather than husband of Berta? > >> > >> Peter Stewart > > Hi all, > > > > It occurs to me that this particular fine relating to property in Gloucestershire should be in print somewhere. > > > > Does anyone have access to: > > L. F. Salzman, ed., The Chartulary of the Priory of St. Peter at Sele (1923) > > or, > > C. R. Elrington, ed., Abstracts of Feet of Fines relating to Gloucestershire 1199-1299, Bristol and Gloucestershire Archaeological Society, Gloucestershire Record Series, 16 (2003) > > > > Doug Thompson noted that it came from "the unpublished transcripts of > the Sele Priory Charters at Magdelen College, Oxford" - I was wondering > where he found this information. I assume it doesn't appear in Salzman's > edition of the cartulary. > > Peter Stewart No. It doesn't. There are many documents in the Sele Priory archive at Magdalen College of which Salzman's book are just a few. Someone called Macray catalogued them all and his transcripts / descriptions are held at Magdalen. A friend of mine visited the archive and photographed these catalogues. The particular document in question has a history of its own. This is actually a description, rather than a transcript, of a copy, on paper, in the fifteenth century of a fine at Westminster between John and Reginald de Braose. That fifteenth century copy is at Magdalen catalogued under "Bidlington and Bramber 20". I have not seen it. I realise that there is room to question the accuracy of copies and transcripts but think that this just adds to the long debate about the Braose Beauchamp marriage and who the wife /wives of Walter de Beauchamp were. I suppose we have to acknowledge that the documents available are contradictory so at least some of them must be mistaken! It will have to be down to each person's judgement as to what conclusion to come to. Doug Thompson