Thanks On Wednesday, May 10, 2017, 8:18:51 PM PDT, Peter Stewart <[email protected]> wrote:On 11/05/2017 11:13 AM, Roger LeBlanc wrote: > I have been following with interest the on-going discussion about the > Empress Gisela, and have discovered errors in the ancestry I show for > another relative of hers, Bernard von Werl (c 1007-1063). He is shown as a > descendant of Gerberga of Burgundy (who was the mother of Empress Gisela), > but descended from her first marriage rather than the second. What should be > the correct links between Bernard and Gerberga? Unfortunately there isn't a definite or simple answer, as the genealogy of the counts of Werl is somewhat obscure in the late-10th and early-11th centuries. According to Annalista Saxo, writing in the mid-12th century, Gisela had a brother named Bernard ("Gisla et soror eius Machtildis fratresque eius Rodulfus et Bernhardus nati erant in Uuestfalia de loco, qui dicitur Uuerla", see p. 362 here: http://www.dmgh.de/de/fs1/object/goToPage/bsb00066318.html?pageNo=362. Perhaps this was badly phrased and he meant that Gisela and Mathilde had half-brothers Rodulf and Bernard who were born in Werl, rather than that all four were full-siblings born there. But of course, he may have been flatly wrong. Anyway, Rodulf and Bernard are thought to have been uterine half-brothers of Gisela, and their father was probably Hermann who occurs as count in the approximate timeframe of a first marriage of their mother Gerberga of Burgundy. However, the name of her Werler husband is uncertain. This Bernard according to Annalista Saxo had only daughters ("Bernhardus comes, alter frater eiusdem regine, habuit filias ...", p. 363 here: http://www.dmgh.de/de/fs1/object/goToPage/bsb00066318.html?pageNo=363). He is usually identified as the count of Hövel and advocate of Essen who died after ca 1030, by ca 1050. From the dates in your post it appears you may be following the genealogy given by Friedrich von Klocke in 1049, identifying Gisela's half-brother Bernard with the count of Werl and advocate of Paderborn who died in the 1060s or later. However, Klocke's version has been contradicted by others and this man is more usually placed as her nephew, the son of Hermann II (thought to have been probably the eldest son of Gerberga of Burgundy by her Werler husband, whether or not he was also named Hermann). Peter Stewart ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message