On Tuesday, July 18, 2017 at 12:17:55 PM UTC+1, Nicola Lowe wrote: > Dear Newsgroup, > I am trying to confirm the dates of Margaret Oddingsel, daughter and co-heir of William Oddingsel and Ela Fitzwalter, who married first John Grey (d. 1311) and then Robert Moreby (d. 1335). > Richardson (Magna Carta Ancestry, 2011, p 269) gives her birth date as c. 1277. Is this because she had to have been 18 to inherit in 1295? > As for the date of her death, she last appears in the records on 21 April 1330, when the king granted free warren to her, her second husband Robert Moreby and her heir John Grey (1300-1359), on her manors of Cogges, Oxfordshire, Opton and Sculcoates, Yorkshire and Weford, Staffordshire, for her lifetime and to John and his heirs after her death. (Cal. Charter Rolls, v 4, 1327-1341, p 168.) > Her son John Grey appears again four months later, on his own account. On 1 August 1330 he and his heirs are granted free warren on all his demesne lands, Shobynton, Estclaydon, Botilclaydon, co. Bucks, Cogges, Herdwyk, Stanlak, Feringford and Somerton, co. Oxford, Wynterburn, co. Berks, Duston, co. Northampton, and Upton, Stillingflete, Moreby, Drynghous, Sculcoates and Ketelwell, co. York. (Cal. Charter Rolls, v 4, 1327-1341, p 189.) > There is no mention of Margaret in this entry. Does this mean she was dead and John had inherited her lands, as suggested by the Church Monuments Society article on Margaret’s effigy? http://www.churchmonumentssociety.org/Monument%20of%20the%20Month%20Archive/2012-01.html > The places mentioned don’t quite tally. Margaret’s manor of Weford was in the first grant but not the second and there are manors in the second which were Grey properties already inherited by John from his father (d.1311). Moreby belonged to his step father who was still alive. Could there be another reason? Was John granted these privileges, some of which seem to be new, some confirmation of existing rights, to mark his knighthood? Oxford Dictionary of National Biography says he was knighted by 1330 ( http://0-www.oxforddnb.com.catalogue.libraries.london.ac.uk/view/article/11544?docPos=4). > > If so, this means there is no date for Margaret’s death and she may have lived on after 1330. > Any thoughts would be much appreciated, > Thank you > Nicola Lowe Thank you both, that is really helpful. With best wishes Nicola

On Thursday, 7 September 2017 21:45:31 UTC+1, Nicola Lowe wrote: > On Tuesday, July 18, 2017 at 12:17:55 PM UTC+1, Nicola Lowe wrote: > > Dear Newsgroup, > > I am trying to confirm the dates of Margaret Oddingsel, daughter and co-heir of William Oddingsel and Ela Fitzwalter, who married first John Grey (d. 1311) and then Robert Moreby (d. 1335). > > Richardson (Magna Carta Ancestry, 2011, p 269) gives her birth date as c. 1277. Is this because she had to have been 18 to inherit in 1295? > > As for the date of her death, she last appears in the records on 21 April 1330, when the king granted free warren to her, her second husband Robert Moreby and her heir John Grey (1300-1359), on her manors of Cogges, Oxfordshire, Opton and Sculcoates, Yorkshire and Weford, Staffordshire, for her lifetime and to John and his heirs after her death. (Cal. Charter Rolls, v 4, 1327-1341, p 168.) > > Her son John Grey appears again four months later, on his own account. On 1 August 1330 he and his heirs are granted free warren on all his demesne lands, Shobynton, Estclaydon, Botilclaydon, co. Bucks, Cogges, Herdwyk, Stanlak, Feringford and Somerton, co. Oxford, Wynterburn, co. Berks, Duston, co. Northampton, and Upton, Stillingflete, Moreby, Drynghous, Sculcoates and Ketelwell, co. York. (Cal. Charter Rolls, v 4, 1327-1341, p 189.) > > There is no mention of Margaret in this entry. Does this mean she was dead and John had inherited her lands, as suggested by the Church Monuments Society article on Margaret’s effigy? http://www.churchmonumentssociety.org/Monument%20of%20the%20Month%20Archive/2012-01.html > > The places mentioned don’t quite tally. Margaret’s manor of Weford was in the first grant but not the second and there are manors in the second which were Grey properties already inherited by John from his father (d.1311). Moreby belonged to his step father who was still alive. Could there be another reason? Was John granted these privileges, some of which seem to be new, some confirmation of existing rights, to mark his knighthood? Oxford Dictionary of National Biography says he was knighted by 1330 ( http://0-www.oxforddnb.com.catalogue.libraries.london.ac.uk/view/article/11544?docPos=4). > > > > If so, this means there is no date for Margaret’s death and she may have lived on after 1330. > > Any thoughts would be much appreciated, > > Thank you > > Nicola Lowe > > Thank you both, that is really helpful. > With best wishes > Nicola Dear Nicola, But that still leaves the question of who was the lady Isabel de Clinton? From the text provided by Matt, it appears that she was a widow, and living in the Priory, it is said, for her recreation and as a place to entertain her friends (she definitely was not the prioress in 1323). Hers was not such an unusual situation, and I have come across other cases of noble widows taking up residence in nunneries, without becoming nuns. Was Isabel really Ida? - it seems doubtful. Isabel must have been the widow of another Clinton. A possible candidate would be the widow of John de Clinton 'the elder' of Coleshill, Warwickshire who died in 1315/6. See CP, vol. 3, p. 312-3, note (c). Regards, John

On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 8:45:22 AM UTC+1, John Watson wrote: > On Thursday, 7 September 2017 21:45:31 UTC+1, Nicola Lowe wrote: > > On Tuesday, July 18, 2017 at 12:17:55 PM UTC+1, Nicola Lowe wrote: > > > Dear Newsgroup, > > > I am trying to confirm the dates of Margaret Oddingsel, daughter and co-heir of William Oddingsel and Ela Fitzwalter, who married first John Grey (d. 1311) and then Robert Moreby (d. 1335). > > > Richardson (Magna Carta Ancestry, 2011, p 269) gives her birth date as c. 1277. Is this because she had to have been 18 to inherit in 1295? > > > As for the date of her death, she last appears in the records on 21 April 1330, when the king granted free warren to her, her second husband Robert Moreby and her heir John Grey (1300-1359), on her manors of Cogges, Oxfordshire, Opton and Sculcoates, Yorkshire and Weford, Staffordshire, for her lifetime and to John and his heirs after her death. (Cal. Charter Rolls, v 4, 1327-1341, p 168.) > > > Her son John Grey appears again four months later, on his own account. On 1 August 1330 he and his heirs are granted free warren on all his demesne lands, Shobynton, Estclaydon, Botilclaydon, co. Bucks, Cogges, Herdwyk, Stanlak, Feringford and Somerton, co. Oxford, Wynterburn, co. Berks, Duston, co. Northampton, and Upton, Stillingflete, Moreby, Drynghous, Sculcoates and Ketelwell, co. York. (Cal. Charter Rolls, v 4, 1327-1341, p 189.) > > > There is no mention of Margaret in this entry. Does this mean she was dead and John had inherited her lands, as suggested by the Church Monuments Society article on Margaret’s effigy? http://www.churchmonumentssociety.org/Monument%20of%20the%20Month%20Archive/2012-01.html > > > The places mentioned don’t quite tally. Margaret’s manor of Weford was in the first grant but not the second and there are manors in the second which were Grey properties already inherited by John from his father (d.1311). Moreby belonged to his step father who was still alive. Could there be another reason? Was John granted these privileges, some of which seem to be new, some confirmation of existing rights, to mark his knighthood? Oxford Dictionary of National Biography says he was knighted by 1330 ( http://0-www.oxforddnb.com.catalogue.libraries.london.ac.uk/view/article/11544?docPos=4). > > > > > > If so, this means there is no date for Margaret’s death and she may have lived on after 1330. > > > Any thoughts would be much appreciated, > > > Thank you > > > Nicola Lowe > > > > Thank you both, that is really helpful. > > With best wishes > > Nicola > > Dear Nicola, > > But that still leaves the question of who was the lady Isabel de Clinton? From the text provided by Matt, it appears that she was a widow, and living in the Priory, it is said, for her recreation and as a place to entertain her friends (she definitely was not the prioress in 1323). Hers was not such an unusual situation, and I have come across other cases of noble widows taking up residence in nunneries, without becoming nuns. > > Was Isabel really Ida? - it seems doubtful. Isabel must have been the widow of another Clinton. A possible candidate would be the widow of John de Clinton 'the elder' of Coleshill, Warwickshire who died in 1315/6. See CP, vol. 3, p. 312-3, note (c). > > Regards, > > John Yes, that does seem much more likely, doesn't it. The same CP note goes on to say that your John Clinton had a son also John who died in 1353 leaving a widow, Alice. Alice de Clynton is listed as prioress at Wroxall in 1353-6 which fits very well. Does this make your John Clinton of Coleshill the cousin of John Clinton of Maxstoke? Very many thanks for this Nicola

On Friday, 8 September 2017 15:46:02 UTC+1, Nicola Lowe wrote: > On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 8:45:22 AM UTC+1, John Watson wrote: > > On Thursday, 7 September 2017 21:45:31 UTC+1, Nicola Lowe wrote: > > > On Tuesday, July 18, 2017 at 12:17:55 PM UTC+1, Nicola Lowe wrote: > > > > Dear Newsgroup, > > > > I am trying to confirm the dates of Margaret Oddingsel, daughter and co-heir of William Oddingsel and Ela Fitzwalter, who married first John Grey (d. 1311) and then Robert Moreby (d. 1335). > > > > Richardson (Magna Carta Ancestry, 2011, p 269) gives her birth date as c. 1277. Is this because she had to have been 18 to inherit in 1295? > > > > As for the date of her death, she last appears in the records on 21 April 1330, when the king granted free warren to her, her second husband Robert Moreby and her heir John Grey (1300-1359), on her manors of Cogges, Oxfordshire, Opton and Sculcoates, Yorkshire and Weford, Staffordshire, for her lifetime and to John and his heirs after her death. (Cal. Charter Rolls, v 4, 1327-1341, p 168.) > > > > Her son John Grey appears again four months later, on his own account. On 1 August 1330 he and his heirs are granted free warren on all his demesne lands, Shobynton, Estclaydon, Botilclaydon, co. Bucks, Cogges, Herdwyk, Stanlak, Feringford and Somerton, co. Oxford, Wynterburn, co. Berks, Duston, co. Northampton, and Upton, Stillingflete, Moreby, Drynghous, Sculcoates and Ketelwell, co. York. (Cal. Charter Rolls, v 4, 1327-1341, p 189.) > > > > There is no mention of Margaret in this entry. Does this mean she was dead and John had inherited her lands, as suggested by the Church Monuments Society article on Margaret’s effigy? http://www.churchmonumentssociety.org/Monument%20of%20the%20Month%20Archive/2012-01.html > > > > The places mentioned don’t quite tally. Margaret’s manor of Weford was in the first grant but not the second and there are manors in the second which were Grey properties already inherited by John from his father (d.1311). Moreby belonged to his step father who was still alive. Could there be another reason? Was John granted these privileges, some of which seem to be new, some confirmation of existing rights, to mark his knighthood? Oxford Dictionary of National Biography says he was knighted by 1330 ( http://0-www.oxforddnb.com.catalogue.libraries.london.ac.uk/view/article/11544?docPos=4). > > > > > > > > If so, this means there is no date for Margaret’s death and she may have lived on after 1330. > > > > Any thoughts would be much appreciated, > > > > Thank you > > > > Nicola Lowe > > > > > > Thank you both, that is really helpful. > > > With best wishes > > > Nicola > > > > Dear Nicola, > > > > But that still leaves the question of who was the lady Isabel de Clinton? From the text provided by Matt, it appears that she was a widow, and living in the Priory, it is said, for her recreation and as a place to entertain her friends (she definitely was not the prioress in 1323). Hers was not such an unusual situation, and I have come across other cases of noble widows taking up residence in nunneries, without becoming nuns. > > > > Was Isabel really Ida? - it seems doubtful. Isabel must have been the widow of another Clinton. A possible candidate would be the widow of John de Clinton 'the elder' of Coleshill, Warwickshire who died in 1315/6. See CP, vol. 3, p. 312-3, note (c). > > > > Regards, > > > > John > > Yes, that does seem much more likely, doesn't it. The same CP note goes on to say that your John Clinton had a son also John who died in 1353 leaving a widow, Alice. Alice de Clynton is listed as prioress at Wroxall in 1353-6 which fits very well. > Does this make your John Clinton of Coleshill the cousin of John Clinton of Maxstoke? > Very many thanks for this > Nicola Hi Nicola, John de Clinton 'the elder' of Coleshill who died in 1316, was the uncle of John de Clinton of Maxstoke (d. 1310). The elder John was the younger brother of Thomas de Clinton, father of John de Clinton of Maxstoke. I've had a search through the Feet of Fines for Warwickshire, but the name of John de Clinton 'the elder's' wife does not appear in any fine. Regards, John