Hi Brad el al, Being one of the descendants of Robert Temple of Ireland/New England fame my ggggg-grandfather)I am most interested in the knowledge you guys have and am keen to resolve the three or so generations between Sir Thomas Temple, 1st Bart, and Robert. I see this interaction is 5 years or so old but do you know if anyone has done the Irish research that maybe will link Thomas Temple, dd (Bourton-on-the-Water, etc.) to Robert T., born 1694 in Ireland? What I cannot get is how a 23 year old can be in business of taking ultimately 5 ships worth of emigrants from Ireland to America without some serious family money involved, which means there must be records of their 'doings' somewhere. I am going in circles with this but just have not the knowledge to progress it. Any info you may be able to share would be most appreciated. Many thanks, Alan Temple, Glenorchy, New Zealand Any On Thursday, September 6, 2012 at 12:08:17 PM UTC+12, Brad Verity wrote: > It was Robert O'Connor who first brought this line of descent to the > attention of the newsgroup, in September 2003: > http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/df24af1521458b47?hl=en > > And again in July 2004: > http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/ec11c1b64302a3fc?hl=en > > The descent is as follows (with dates as I have them in my database): > > Edward I had > 1) Elizabeth of England (1282-1316) m. 2) Humphrey de Bohun, Earl of > Hereford (1276-1322), and had > 2) Eleanor de Bohun (c.1310-1363) m. 1) James Butler, 1st Earl of > Ormond (1305-1338), and had > 3) Pernel Butler (c.1335-1368) m. Gilbert, 3rd Lord Talbot (c. > 1332-1387), and had > 4) Richard, 4th Lord Talbot (1361-1396) m. Ankaret Lestrange > (1361-1413), and had > 5) Alice Talbot (d. 1436) m. 1) Sir Thomas Barre, heir of Rotherwas > (d. 1420), and had > 6) Elizabeth Barre (c.1414-1468) m. Sir Edmund Cornewall, heir of > Burford (c.1382-1435), and had > 7) Thomas Cornewall of Burford (c.1431-aft.1472) m. Elizabeth Lenthall > (d. 1489), and had > 8) Anne Cornewall m. Peter Blount of Sodington Hall (c.1459-1527), and > had > 9) Thomas Blount of Sodington Hall (d. 1562), who is said to have had > 10) Elizabeth Blount m. William Clifton of Barrington Court (d. 1564), > and had > 11) Hester Clifton (c.1535-1586) m. Miles Sandys of Fladbury (c. > 1530-1601), and had > 12) Hester Clifton (c.1569-1656) m. Sir Thomas Temple, 1st Baronet of > Stowe (1567-1637), and had > 13) Sir John Temple of Biddlesden (1593-1632), ancestor of Franklin D. > Roosevelt > > Generations 1 thru 9 above are sound. It's when we get to Generation > #10 that there are some red flags. As Robert pointed out in 2004, the > Clifton of Clifton pedigree in the 1569 Visitation of Nottinghamshire > states that the wife of William Clifton of Barrington Court was > "Elizabeth d. of Thomas Blount of Sodington in Com. Worcester": > http://www.archive.org/stream/visitationscoun01britgoog#page/n32/mode/2up > > Unfortunately I don't yet have enough information on the 15th-century > Cornewalls of Burford to make estimates on the birthdates of Anne > Cornewall (Generation 8 above), but we do have an estimated birthdate > of "about 1459" for Anne's husband Peter Blount, so very likely 1480 > would be about the earliest their son Thomas could be born. > > According to the Clifton pedigree from the Visitation of > Nottinghamshire, William Clifton of Barrington Court (in Generation 10 > above) was the 4th of 9 sons of Sir Gervase Clifton of Clifton > (1438-1491) & his 1st wife Alice Neville. We know that Sir Gervase > married his second wife Agnes Constable (d. 1506), widow of Sir Walter > Griffith of Burton Agnes (d. 1481) on 10 September 1483. If the > pedigree is correct, this means the latest that William Clifton could > have been born is 1478. > > Is it possible that a man born by 1478 could live to 1564 and age 86? > Yes. Is it likely? No. Something seems off here. This chronology > also has William Clifton born before his own father-in-law Thomas > Blount. Again, not impossible, but not likely either. > > The Blount pedigree from the 1569 Visitation of Worcestershire is > here: > http://www.archive.org/stream/visitationcount02mundgoog#page/n33/mode/2up > > It assigns a total of 5 children to Thomas Blount of Sodington, three > from his first wife Katherine Stanford, and two from his second wife > Joyce Shirley. I can only locate dates for two of those children so > far, both by the first wife: > > 1) Walter Blount of Sodington Hall, died 7 September 1589. Source: > Hal Bradley (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/ > ~hwbradley/aqwg2808.htm) > > 2) Dorothy Blount married William Heath of Alvechurch (born by 1533; > will proved 3 February 1570), and survived him. Source: Heath's bio > in HOP: http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/heath-william-1533-6870 > > Unfortunately, the dates above do not support a sibling who was > married to a man born by 1478, and herself a grandmother by 1564 > (HOP's estimated birthdate for Edwin Sandys, eldest son of Miles > Sandys & Hester Clifton). That, combined with the lack of any mention > of a Clifton/Blount marriage in the 1569 Blount Visitation pedigree, > make the parentage ascribed to William Clifton of Barrington's wife > Elizabeth in the Clifton Visitation pedigree likely an error (with > additional chronological red flags on the parentage the pedigree > ascribes to William himself). > > There may be a Clifton/Blount connection but further research is > needed, and the descent above must be viewed as very unlikely at > Generations 9 thru 11. > > Cheers, -------------Brad On Thursday, September 6, 2012 at 12:08:17 PM UTC+12, Brad Verity wrote: > It was Robert O'Connor who first brought this line of descent to the > attention of the newsgroup, in September 2003: > http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/df24af1521458b47?hl=en > > And again in July 2004: > http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/ec11c1b64302a3fc?hl=en > > The descent is as follows (with dates as I have them in my database): > > Edward I had > 1) Elizabeth of England (1282-1316) m. 2) Humphrey de Bohun, Earl of > Hereford (1276-1322), and had > 2) Eleanor de Bohun (c.1310-1363) m. 1) James Butler, 1st Earl of > Ormond (1305-1338), and had > 3) Pernel Butler (c.1335-1368) m. Gilbert, 3rd Lord Talbot (c. > 1332-1387), and had > 4) Richard, 4th Lord Talbot (1361-1396) m. Ankaret Lestrange > (1361-1413), and had > 5) Alice Talbot (d. 1436) m. 1) Sir Thomas Barre, heir of Rotherwas > (d. 1420), and had > 6) Elizabeth Barre (c.1414-1468) m. Sir Edmund Cornewall, heir of > Burford (c.1382-1435), and had > 7) Thomas Cornewall of Burford (c.1431-aft.1472) m. Elizabeth Lenthall > (d. 1489), and had > 8) Anne Cornewall m. Peter Blount of Sodington Hall (c.1459-1527), and > had > 9) Thomas Blount of Sodington Hall (d. 1562), who is said to have had > 10) Elizabeth Blount m. William Clifton of Barrington Court (d. 1564), > and had > 11) Hester Clifton (c.1535-1586) m. Miles Sandys of Fladbury (c. > 1530-1601), and had > 12) Hester Clifton (c.1569-1656) m. Sir Thomas Temple, 1st Baronet of > Stowe (1567-1637), and had > 13) Sir John Temple of Biddlesden (1593-1632), ancestor of Franklin D. > Roosevelt > > Generations 1 thru 9 above are sound. It's when we get to Generation > #10 that there are some red flags. As Robert pointed out in 2004, the > Clifton of Clifton pedigree in the 1569 Visitation of Nottinghamshire > states that the wife of William Clifton of Barrington Court was > "Elizabeth d. of Thomas Blount of Sodington in Com. Worcester": > http://www.archive.org/stream/visitationscoun01britgoog#page/n32/mode/2up > > Unfortunately I don't yet have enough information on the 15th-century > Cornewalls of Burford to make estimates on the birthdates of Anne > Cornewall (Generation 8 above), but we do have an estimated birthdate > of "about 1459" for Anne's husband Peter Blount, so very likely 1480 > would be about the earliest their son Thomas could be born. > > According to the Clifton pedigree from the Visitation of > Nottinghamshire, William Clifton of Barrington Court (in Generation 10 > above) was the 4th of 9 sons of Sir Gervase Clifton of Clifton > (1438-1491) & his 1st wife Alice Neville. We know that Sir Gervase > married his second wife Agnes Constable (d. 1506), widow of Sir Walter > Griffith of Burton Agnes (d. 1481) on 10 September 1483. If the > pedigree is correct, this means the latest that William Clifton could > have been born is 1478. > > Is it possible that a man born by 1478 could live to 1564 and age 86? > Yes. Is it likely? No. Something seems off here. This chronology > also has William Clifton born before his own father-in-law Thomas > Blount. Again, not impossible, but not likely either. > > The Blount pedigree from the 1569 Visitation of Worcestershire is > here: > http://www.archive.org/stream/visitationcount02mundgoog#page/n33/mode/2up > > It assigns a total of 5 children to Thomas Blount of Sodington, three > from his first wife Katherine Stanford, and two from his second wife > Joyce Shirley. I can only locate dates for two of those children so > far, both by the first wife: > > 1) Walter Blount of Sodington Hall, died 7 September 1589. Source: > Hal Bradley (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/ > ~hwbradley/aqwg2808.htm) > > 2) Dorothy Blount married William Heath of Alvechurch (born by 1533; > will proved 3 February 1570), and survived him. Source: Heath's bio > in HOP: http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/heath-william-1533-6870 > > Unfortunately, the dates above do not support a sibling who was > married to a man born by 1478, and herself a grandmother by 1564 > (HOP's estimated birthdate for Edwin Sandys, eldest son of Miles > Sandys & Hester Clifton). That, combined with the lack of any mention > of a Clifton/Blount marriage in the 1569 Blount Visitation pedigree, > make the parentage ascribed to William Clifton of Barrington's wife > Elizabeth in the Clifton Visitation pedigree likely an error (with > additional chronological red flags on the parentage the pedigree > ascribes to William himself). > > There may be a Clifton/Blount connection but further research is > needed, and the descent above must be viewed as very unlikely at > Generations 9 thru 11. > > Cheers, -------------Brad

On Wednesday, September 13, 2017 at 2:54:46 PM UTC-7, al...@intrac.co.nz wrote: > Hi Brad el al, > Being one of the descendants of Robert Temple of Ireland/New England fame my ggggg-grandfather)I am most interested in the knowledge you guys have and am keen to resolve the three or so generations between Sir Thomas Temple, 1st Bart, and Robert. I see this interaction is 5 years or so old but do you know if anyone has done the Irish research that maybe will link Thomas Temple, dd (Bourton-on-the-Water, etc.) to Robert T., born 1694 in Ireland? > What I cannot get is how a 23 year old can be in business of taking ultimately 5 ships worth of emigrants from Ireland to America without some serious family money involved, which means there must be records of their 'doings' somewhere. I am going in circles with this but just have not the knowledge to progress it. Any info you may be able to share would be most appreciated. > Many thanks, Alan Temple, Glenorchy, New Zealand Nice to meet you Alan. Sorry to report that I have no knowledge that any further research into the origins of Robert Temple of New England has occurred in the past five years. Hopefully someone else will be able to help you out! Cheers, ---Brad