Capital! Excellent Post, Brad. I've been on a trip and just saw your post today. ...Will have more to say after I've digested all this most useful information. Aloha, Spencer "The final happiness of man consists in the contemplation of truth.... This is sought for its own sake, and is directed to no other end beyond itself." Saint Thomas Aquinas, [1224/5-1274] _Summa Contra Gentiles_ [c. 1258-1264] "Brad Verity" wrote in message news:a4afaa4d-ee4a-4760-a3e8-16c32f9e6e67@googlegroups.com... On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 5:46:10 PM UTC-7, wjhonson wrote: > The Caroline Cumberbatch who was buried 21 Oct 1842 at Holy Trinity > Brampton was called "aged 54" I think it's safe to assume that the Caroline Chaloner who married Abraham Parry Cumberbatch in 1819 at Tonbridge, Kent, was the same Caroline Chaloner born at Guisborough Hall, Yorkshire in 1788. Rev. John William Clay, in his 'Dugdale's Visitation of Yorkshire with Additions' Vol. 2 (1907), pp. 234-235 (sub Chaloner of Guisborough), does not give any marriage for this Caroline, but as John Higgins has pointed out, Burke's Peerage 107th Edn. (2003), p. 1556 (sub Gisborough), does have: "3a Caroline; b 2 Oct 1788; m 13 April 1819 Abraham Parry Cumberbatch. He d 10 Oct 1840." Given the rarity of the name - the only Caroline Chaloner who pops up when searching the birth range 1775-1800 on Find My Past is this Guisborough lady - plus the fact that Caroline's mother Emma (Harvey) Chaloner lived in Tunbridge Wells in her widowhood and died there, all the pieces fit together nicely. In this period, age was often given as how old you would turn on your next birthday. So Caroline Cumberbatch's age at her 1842 death we would consider today to be 53, since that was how old she had turned on her previous birthday, in 1842 her age could just as well have been considered 54 (in her 54th year), since that was how old she would turn on her next birthday. What's interesting is that no notice of this Cumberbatch-Chaloner marriage appears in the newspapers, or in Gentleman's Magazine, which explains why Rev. Clay, researching the Chaloner family decades later, was unaware of it. Caroline was a 30-year-old spinster when she married Cumberbatch, a widower four years her senior, with three children, aged 12, 10 and 7, from his first wife, who had died the year before he wed Caroline. The Cumberbatch family were not established landed gentry (there's no entry for them in Burke's Family Index), but instead had made their fortune through the ownership of several sugar plantations on Barbados (which also meant they owned slaves): http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2549773/How-Benedict-Cumberbatchs-family-fortune-slavery-And-roles-films-like-12-Years-A-Slave-bid-atone-sins.html When the middle-aged Caroline wed Cumberbatch in 1819, the head of her family was her eldest brother Robert Chaloner (1776-1842), a prominent Yorkshire banker and M.P. We don't have enough information currently to determine whether Caroline's marriage was opposed by her family in any way, due either to the new-money status of Cumberbatch, or to political opposition to slaveowning (I cannot tell from his entry in HOP whether or not Robert Chaloner was an abolitionist). It's just as possible the marriage went under the radar due to the couple being middle-aged. There is no notice in the newspapers of the 1840 death of Abraham Parry Cumberbatch, nor of the 1842 death of his widow Caroline. But notice of the 1843 marriage of their son Robert William Cumberbatch (1822-1876) to Emily Lloyd did appear in newspapers. On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 6:44:42 PM UTC-7, D. Spencer Hines wrote: > I'm not quite clear on what you mean by "equidistant". > I have one model that makes Anne Bowes a 7th great-granddaughter of Edward > IV -- but only a 3rd cousin, 7 times removed, of James II, King of Scots. > Perhaps you could show us the proposed direct linkage to James II, King of > Scots? Caroline (Chaloner) Cumberbatch has at least two, and probably three, lines of descent from Edward IV's illegitimate daughter Lady Margaret Lumley. She also has a line of descent from James II of Scotland through an illegitimate great-granddaughter of the monarch. Finally, Caroline should have been included in Ruvigny's 'Mortimer-Percy' volume (1911) on p. 236, alongside her parents and siblings. But since Rev. Clay was unaware of Caroline's marriage, it's no surprise that his contemporary Ruvigny was also unaware of it. So here are these five lines of descent, as I have them. Edward IV = (probably) Margaret Fitzlewis, Dame Lucy (1440-1466, descended from Edward I), and had a dau: A1) Margaret Plantagenet, illegit. (b. c.1462) m. Thomas Lumley, Heir of Lumley Castle (c.1462-1503, descended from Edward III), and had a son A2 and two daus B2 & C2 (see below) A2) Roger Lumley of Ludworth Tower m. Isabel Radcliffe (descended from Edward I), and had A3) Agnes Lumley (d. 1564) m. John Lambton of Lambton Castle (c.1505-1549), and had A4) Robert Lambton of Lambton Hall (c.1530-1583) m. Frances Eure (b. c.1530, descended from Edward III), and had A5) Jane Lambton (c.1568-1648) m. Sir William Blakistoni of Gibside Hall (1562-1641), and had A6) Sir Ralph Blakiston, 1st Baronet of Gibside (c.1589-1650) m. Margaret Fenwick (descended from Edward III), and had A7) Sir Francis Blakiston, 3rd Baronet of Gibside (c.1630-1713) m. Anne Bowes (see B7 below), and had A8) ELIZABETH BLAKISTON, b. c.1670; bur. 5 July 1736 St Mary Church, South Bailey, Durham; m. 17 Aug. 1691 St Margaret Church, Tanfield, Durham, Sir WILLIAM BOWES of Streatlam Castle (see D8 below), and had A9) ANNE BOWES, b. 24 Oct. 1695 Barnard Castle, Durham, bapt. 27 Oct. 1695 St Mary Church, Barnard Castle; bur. there 6 Nov. 1734; m. 11 June 1713 St Mary Church, Barnard Castle, EDWARD CHALONER of Guisborough Hall (see E17 below), and had A10) WILLIAM CHALONER of Guisborough Hall, b. 29 July 1714 Streatlam Castle, bap. there 1 Aug. 1714; d. 13 Feb. 1754 Guisborough Hall, bur. 18 Feb. 1754 St Nicholas Church, Guisborough; m. 1 Oct. 1741 St Edmund Church, Sedgefield, Durham, MARY FINNEY, b. c.1720; bur. 2 July 1787 St Nicholas Church, Guisborough, dau. of Dr. James Finney, Prebendary of Durham Cathedral 1706-27 (1687-1727) & Thomasine Burdon, and had A11) WILLIAM CHALONER of Guisborough Hall, b. there 14 Aug. 1745, bap. 2 Sept. 1745 St Nicholas Church, Guisborough; d. there 8 May 1793, bur. there 11 May 1793; m. 8 Aug. 1771 St James Church, Westminster, London, EMMA HARVEY, b. 29 Aug. 1753, bap. 21 Sept. 1753 St Anne Soho, London; d. 6 Aug. 1835 Tunbridge Wells, Kent, dau. of William Harvey of Rolls House, Chigwell, Essex (1714-1763, descended from Edward III) & Emma Skinner (1731-1767), and had A12) CAROLINE CHALONER, b. 2 Oct. 1788 Guisborough Hall, bap. 25 Nov. 1788 St Nicholas Church, Guisborough; d. 15 Oct. 1842 Brompton, London, bur. 21 Oct. 1842 Holy Trinity Church, Brompton; m. 13 Apr. 1819 St Peter & St Paul Church, Tonbridge, Kent, as his 2nd wife, ABRAHAM PARRY CUMBERBATCH of The Broad, Hellingly, Sussex, bap. 29 Nov. 1784 St Peter, Barbados, West Indies; d. 10 Oct. 1840 Tunbridge Wells, Kent, son of Abraham Cumberbatch of Fairwater House, Taunton, Devon, sugar planter (1754-1796) & Mary Cumberbatch Sober (b. c.1765). They are 3xgreat-grandparents of actor Benedict Cumberbatch (b. 1976). B2) Anne Lumley m. 1) Robert, 4th Baron Ogle (c.1490-1532, descended from Edward III), and had B3) Agnes Ogle* m. Sir John Delaval of Seaton Delaval Hall (by 1523-1572), and had B4) Sir Robert Delaval of Seaton Delaval Hall (by 1542-1607) m. Dorothy Gray (c.1554-bef.1600, descended from Edward III), and had B5) Sir Ralph Delaval of Seaton Delaval Hall (c.1575-1628) m. Jane Hilton (see C6 below), and had B6) Mary Delaval (b. c.1600) m. Sir George Bowes of Bradley Hall (1596-1643), and had B7) Anne Bowes (c.1635-1701) m. Sir Francis Blakiston, 3rd Baronet of Gibside Hall (see A7 above) *For the reason why I believe Agnes (Ogle) Delaval has this parentage, instead of a generation further back, which is where published Ogle pedigrees have placed her, see footnote *1 in my blogpost: https://royaldescent.blogspot.ca/2015/06/edward-iv-descents-for-agnes-mary-nee.html C2) Sybil Lumley (c.1480-by 1526) m. William, 9th Lord Hilton (d. by 1537), and had C3) William, 11th Lord Hilton (c.1508-1562) m. Margaret Metcalfe (d. 1566), and had C4) William, 12th Lord Hilton (c.1535-1600) m. Anne Yorke (descended from Edward I), and had C5) Thomas Hilton, Heir of Hilton Castle (c.1560-1598) m. Anne Bowes (c.1563-1608, descended from Edward I), and had C6) Jane Hilton (c.1584-1645) m. 1) Sir Ralph Delaval of Seaton Delaval Hall (see B5 above) James II of Scotland had a son: D1) Alexander Stewart, 1st Duke of Albany (c.1454-1485) m.(div.) 1) Lady Catherine Sinclair, and had D2) Alexander Stewart, Bishop of Moray (c.1472-1537) = unknown mistress, and had D3) Margaret Stewart, illegit. (c.1508-by 1550) m. 1) Patrick Graham/Graeme, 1st Laird of Inchbrakie Castle (c.1507-1536), and had D4) George Graeme, 2nd Laird of Inchbrakie Castle (c.1531-1576) m. Marjory Rollo (d. 1625), and had D5) Nichola Graeme (b. c.1565) m. Patrick Maxtone, 6th of Cultoquhey (d. 1618), and had D6) Rev. Anthony Maxton(e), Prebendary of Durham Cathedral (d. 1641) m. Anne Dudley of Chopwell, and had D7) ANNE MAXTON, b. c.1625; bur. 31 Dec. 1705 St Mary Church, Barnard Castle; m. by 1648, THOMAS BOWES of Streatlam Castle, Durham, bap. 23 Dec. 1607 St Mary Church, Richmond, Yorkshire; bur. 9 Sept. 1661 St Mary Church, Barnard Castle, son of Thomas Bowes of Streatlam Castle (c.1570-1636, descended from Edward I) & Anne Warcop (d. 1653), and had D8) Sir WILLIAM BOWES of Streatlam Castle, bap. 6 Jan. 1657 St Mary Church, Barnard Castle; bur. there 12 Feb. 1707; m. 17 Aug. 1691 St Margaret Church, Tanfield, Durham, ELIZABETH BLAKISTON (see A8 above) Edward III had a 2nd surviving son: E1) Lionel of Antwerp, 1st Duke of Clarence (1338-1368) m. 1) Lady Elizabeth de Burgh (1332-1363, descended from Edward I), and had E2) Lady Philippa Plantagenet of Clarence (1355-1377) m. Edmund Mortimer, 3rd Earl of March (1352-1381), and had E3) Lady Elizabeth Mortimer (1371-1417) m. 1) Sir Henry 'Hotspur' Percy (1364-1403), and had E4) Henry Percy, 2nd Earl of Northumberland (1394-1455) m. Lady Eleanor Neville (1403-1472, descended from Edward III), and had E5) Henry Percy, 3rd Earl of Northumberland (1421-1461) m. Eleanor Poynings (1428-1484, descended from Edward I), and had E6) Henry Percy, 4th Earl of Northumberland (c.1449-1489) m. Lady Maud Herbert (c.1457-by 1487), and had E7) Henry Algernon Percy, 5th Earl of Northumberland (1478-1527) m. Katherine Spencer (1477-1542, descended from Edward III), and had E8) Lady Margaret Percy (c.1495-1540) m. Henry Clifford, 1st Earl of Cumberland (1493-1542, descended from Edward III), and had E9) Lady Katherine Clifford (1518-1598) m. 1) John, 8th Lord Scrope of Bolton (c.1515-1549, descended from Edward III), and had E10) Margaret Scrope m. Sir John Constable of Burton Constable (1526-1579, descended from Edward III), and had E11) Sir Henry Constable of Burton Constable (c.1559-1608) m. Margaret Dormer (1562-1637), and had E12) Katherine Constable (c.1578-1626) m. Thomas, 1st Viscount Fairfax of Emly (1577-1636, descended from Edward III), and had E13) Hon. Mary Fairfax (c.1598-1636) m. Sir Thomas Layton of Sexhow Hall (1597-1651), and had E14) Mary Layton (c.1617-1657) m. Sir Henry Foulis, 2nd Baronet of Ingleby (c.1607-1643), and had E15) Sir David Foulis, 3rd Baronet of Ingleby (1633-1695) m. Katherine Watkins (1631-1718, descended from Edward III), and had E16) HONORA FOULIS, b. c.1663; d. 3 Oct. 1755 York, bur. 8 Oct. 1755 St Nicholas Church, Guisborough; m. 15 Aug. 1682 St Andrew Church, Ingleby Greenhow, Yorkshire, WILLIAM CHALONER of Guisborough Hall, bap. 16 Oct. 1655 St Nicholas Church, Guisborough; bur. there 18 Feb. 1716, son of Sir Edward Challoner of Guisborough Hall (c.1625-1680) & Anne Ingoldsby (d. 1704, descended from Edward I), and had E17) EDWARD CHALONER of Guisborough Hall, b. 11 July 1683 Ingleby Manor, bap. 16 July 1683 St Andrew Church, Ingleby Greenhow; bur. there 8 Oct. 1737; m. 11 June 1713 St Mary Church, Barnard Castle, Durham, ANNE BOWES (see A9 above) Cheers, ----Brad