On 05-Sep-17 10:37 AM, joecook@gmail.com wrote: > I dont think you want to entangle the Edward III question with the charlemagne question. The number of generations since Charlemagne ensures that even a model with the most insanely restrictive parameters imaginable still shows that he is truly the father of practically all of present day Europe. > I have a few *trillion* spaces in my ahnentafel to fill for people contemporaneous to Charlemagne, and other than a few hundred people at a time, nobody in Europe knew if their, say, 21x great grandfather was Charlemagne or not, so clearly they did not selectively choose a spouse based on that knowledge. > Even in a society with a very strict caste system there would have been enough people who slept with the stable boy or the local hooker to ensure the same result. I agree, we can never know how far illegitimacy has spread any remote ancestor throughout the population. The Edward III question is already tangled enough in itself anyway - the supposed percentage of people with substantially English ancestry who may be his descendants is tangled up with the percentage of lines that may be traceable. It would be interesting to know if anyone in this group can trace at least one line each for 20% of their great-great-grandparents (say 3 of the 16, assuming these are three different people) back to mid-14th-century England without running into Edward III. Statistics and estimates can be a dangerous temptation: 80% is a proportion that is bound to encourage speculation in genealogy - as with name transmission, where studies are often blithely ignored that find somewhat less than 80% of Frankish aristocrats in the 8th and 9th centuries can be shown to have been given names from either parent's family (for instance, 77% in western Francia according to Régine Le Jan, 66% in Swabia according to Hans-Werner Goetz). Peter Stewart

Peter, Out of my 16 great-great-grandparents: 6 with no relationship at all nor traceable ancestry to the 14th century. 3 with descent from Edward III (one line which has been challenged with good arguments on both sides; if not accepted then there is traceable ancestry to Edward I). 7 with traceable ancestry to Henry I, Henry II, John, Henry III or Edward I with no descent from Edward III. So I have 7 or 8 of 16 great-great-grandparents who have at least one line back to mid-14th-century England without running into Edward III. Hal Bradley On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 6:32 PM, Peter Stewart <psssst@optusnet.com.au> wrote: > On 05-Sep-17 10:37 AM, joecook@gmail.com wrote: > >> I dont think you want to entangle the Edward III question with the >> charlemagne question. The number of generations since Charlemagne ensures >> that even a model with the most insanely restrictive parameters imaginable >> still shows that he is truly the father of practically all of present day >> Europe. >> I have a few *trillion* spaces in my ahnentafel to fill for people >> contemporaneous to Charlemagne, and other than a few hundred people at a >> time, nobody in Europe knew if their, say, 21x great grandfather was >> Charlemagne or not, so clearly they did not selectively choose a spouse >> based on that knowledge. >> Even in a society with a very strict caste system there would have been >> enough people who slept with the stable boy or the local hooker to ensure >> the same result. >> > > I agree, we can never know how far illegitimacy has spread any remote > ancestor throughout the population. > > The Edward III question is already tangled enough in itself anyway - the > supposed percentage of people with substantially English ancestry who may > be his descendants is tangled up with the percentage of lines that may be > traceable. > > It would be interesting to know if anyone in this group can trace at least > one line each for 20% of their great-great-grandparents (say 3 of the 16, > assuming these are three different people) back to mid-14th-century England > without running into Edward III. > > Statistics and estimates can be a dangerous temptation: 80% is a > proportion that is bound to encourage speculation in genealogy - as with > name transmission, where studies are often blithely ignored that find > somewhat less than 80% of Frankish aristocrats in the 8th and 9th centuries > can be shown to have been given names from either parent's family (for > instance, 77% in western Francia according to Régine Le Jan, 66% in Swabia > according to Hans-Werner Goetz). > > Peter Stewart > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Out of my 16 great-great grandparents, only 3 have traceable royal ancestry. One is to Edward III and the others to Edward I. Most of my other lines can be traced as far as immigration to this country with only 5 or 6 to Europe. I have one of these lines can be traced to a prominent landed family in England in the 1400's but no royal descents. Steve Riggan Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 4, 2017, at 8:09 PM, Hal Bradley <colonialancestors@gmail.com> wrote: > > Peter, > > Out of my 16 great-great-grandparents: > > 6 with no relationship at all nor traceable ancestry to the 14th century. > 3 with descent from Edward III (one line which has been challenged with > good arguments on both sides; if not accepted then there is traceable > ancestry to Edward I). > 7 with traceable ancestry to Henry I, Henry II, John, Henry III or Edward I > with no descent from Edward III. > > So I have 7 or 8 of 16 great-great-grandparents who have at least one line > back to mid-14th-century England without running into Edward III. > > Hal Bradley > > > > On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 6:32 PM, Peter Stewart <psssst@optusnet.com.au> > wrote: > >>> On 05-Sep-17 10:37 AM, joecook@gmail.com wrote: >>> >>> I dont think you want to entangle the Edward III question with the >>> charlemagne question. The number of generations since Charlemagne ensures >>> that even a model with the most insanely restrictive parameters imaginable >>> still shows that he is truly the father of practically all of present day >>> Europe. >>> I have a few *trillion* spaces in my ahnentafel to fill for people >>> contemporaneous to Charlemagne, and other than a few hundred people at a >>> time, nobody in Europe knew if their, say, 21x great grandfather was >>> Charlemagne or not, so clearly they did not selectively choose a spouse >>> based on that knowledge. >>> Even in a society with a very strict caste system there would have been >>> enough people who slept with the stable boy or the local hooker to ensure >>> the same result. >>> >> >> I agree, we can never know how far illegitimacy has spread any remote >> ancestor throughout the population. >> >> The Edward III question is already tangled enough in itself anyway - the >> supposed percentage of people with substantially English ancestry who may >> be his descendants is tangled up with the percentage of lines that may be >> traceable. >> >> It would be interesting to know if anyone in this group can trace at least >> one line each for 20% of their great-great-grandparents (say 3 of the 16, >> assuming these are three different people) back to mid-14th-century England >> without running into Edward III. >> >> Statistics and estimates can be a dangerous temptation: 80% is a >> proportion that is bound to encourage speculation in genealogy - as with >> name transmission, where studies are often blithely ignored that find >> somewhat less than 80% of Frankish aristocrats in the 8th and 9th centuries >> can be shown to have been given names from either parent's family (for >> instance, 77% in western Francia according to Régine Le Jan, 66% in Swabia >> according to Hans-Werner Goetz). >> >> Peter Stewart >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message