All very interesting, Douglas. Who is the Dame Jane Thurland mentioned as a parental/ guardian figure in the marriage contract of Stanhope and Rochford? Is that possibly Jane/ Joan's paternal grandmother who had remarried? I guess the Margaret Stanley, countess of Richmond and Darby, in the University of Nottingham Archives (Ne D 1906) doc. would be the king's mother, going by her married surname of Stanley, rather than by Beaufort? Or was that lady dead by then? I was a bit mixed up earlier in stating that the countess of Richmond and Darby was the mother of Oliver St. John, 3rd husband of Elizabeth Scrope. She was _really_ the uterine half-sister of Oliver St. John, a son of her mother Margaret Beauchamp, duchess of Somerset, by an earlier husband.