Hi John There are a lot of conflicts in the secondary sources. At least three Thomas' in a short period of time. Based on the above references, and only for discussion purposes, one possible reconstruction is: 1. Edmund 2. Thomas I d. 1464 father of: 2a. Thomas II d. 1473/4 m Joan dc 1478 (also m. Hunt, who appears to have daughter Joan as well) parents of Joan m. Henry Rochford with daughter Joan (although Joan Thurland could have been by earlier wife..) 2b. Richard d. 1455 m. Alice Neville parents of 3. 2c. nn 3. Thomas III d. 1498 m. Joan (Dorothy?) Willoughby five children including 4. Thomas IV d. 1523 m. Isabel Welby parents of 5. 5. Edward m. Olive Breton descendants as carried on in The Visitations of the County of Nottingham in the Years 1569 and 1614: With ...William Flower, Sir Richard Saint-George, Richard Mundy, John Withie, p 154. There are also interesting tie-ins to the Danby and Armstrong families. The above harmonizes some of pedigrees with all the attendant risks of that approach. Without more primary docs. I am not sure how these conflicts can be resolved. Doug Smith