On 6/05/2016 9:05 PM, Peter Stewart via wrote: > On Friday, May 6, 2016 at 5:10:12 PM UTC+10, Peter G. M. Dale wrote: >> Greetings, >> >> I am curious if there is an authoritative pedigree of the "de Rie" >> family? I have seen multiple references and narratives regarding Eudo >> Dapifer, his brothers and his father Hubert I "de Rie". However, I >> have not seen any authoritative evidence of a pedigree beyond Hubert. >> I would be appreciative of any insight into whether this has been >> documented, or otherwise sensibly conjectured. Many thanks. > The most thorough study I know of is 'Les seigneurs de Ryes en Bessin: études historiques' by Romain-Auguste-Laurent Pezet, originally published in *Mémoires de la Société d'agriculture, sciences, arts et belles-lettres de Bayeux* 8 (1879) 81-196 (http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k433567m/f106), and reprinted in the series Monographies des villes et villages de France (Paris, 2012). > > I should have remembered to check this when I was looking for a collateral relationship as suggested by Round - it turns out that Eudo's brother Radulf did have male heirs of his own, so what I had thought a limited possibility is in fact a dead end. > This has been challenged off-list, on the grounds that Pezet identified Eudo de Ryes (who died in 1120) as the dapifer whose nephew Robert of La Haye, son of Radulf, confirmed in 1105 the donations of Turstin Haldup and his son Eudes au Capel in 1056/64 founding Lessay abbey. The origins of the seigneurial family of La Haye are obscure, but in my opinion Pezet was most probably correct - the alternative identification of Robert's uncle Eudo, the dapifer referred to in 1105 when Eudo de Ryes certainly held the office, with Eudes au Capel who had died in 1089 makes much less sense. Apart from the peculiarity this would read into the charter text in question, there is a chronological difficulty: Eudes au Capel was the father of Radulf who became count of Aversa in 1045. In other words, Eudes must have been a very old man when he died in 1089 and it is somewhat unlikely that his son Radulf returned to Normandy and became sensechal to the count of Mortain as was Radulf the father of Robert of La Haye. It seems more plausible to me that Robert's father Radulf was the brother of Eudo de Ryes, that he was sensechal of Mortain as well as castellan of Nottingham and very probably lord of Crick. How they were related to Turstin Haldup and his son Eudes au Capel is a mystery - the simplest explanation is that Hubert of Ryes, father of Eudo and Radulf, married a sister of Eudes au Capel. Peter Stewart

On 9/05/2016 11:07 AM, Peter Stewart via wrote: > On 6/05/2016 9:05 PM, Peter Stewart via wrote: >> On Friday, May 6, 2016 at 5:10:12 PM UTC+10, Peter G. M. Dale wrote: >>> Greetings, >>> >>> I am curious if there is an authoritative pedigree of the "de Rie" >>> family? I have seen multiple references and narratives regarding Eudo >>> Dapifer, his brothers and his father Hubert I "de Rie". However, I >>> have not seen any authoritative evidence of a pedigree beyond Hubert. >>> I would be appreciative of any insight into whether this has been >>> documented, or otherwise sensibly conjectured. Many thanks. >> The most thorough study I know of is 'Les seigneurs de Ryes en Bessin: études historiques' by Romain-Auguste-Laurent Pezet, originally published in *Mémoires de la Société d'agriculture, sciences, arts et belles-lettres de Bayeux* 8 (1879) 81-196 (http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k433567m/f106), and reprinted in the series Monographies des villes et villages de France (Paris, 2012). >> >> I should have remembered to check this when I was looking for a collateral relationship as suggested by Round - it turns out that Eudo's brother Radulf did have male heirs of his own, so what I had thought a limited possibility is in fact a dead end. >> > This has been challenged off-list, on the grounds that Pezet identified > Eudo de Ryes (who died in 1120) as the dapifer whose nephew Robert of La > Haye, son of Radulf, confirmed in 1105 the donations of Turstin Haldup > and his son Eudes au Capel in 1056/64 founding Lessay abbey. > > The origins of the seigneurial family of La Haye are obscure, but in my > opinion Pezet was most probably correct - the alternative identification > of Robert's uncle Eudo, the dapifer referred to in 1105 when Eudo de > Ryes certainly held the office, with Eudes au Capel who had died in 1089 > makes much less sense. Apart from the peculiarity this would read into > the charter text in question, there is a chronological difficulty: Eudes > au Capel was the father of Radulf who became count of Aversa in 1045. In > other words, Eudes must have been a very old man when he died in 1089 > and it is somewhat unlikely that his son Radulf returned to Normandy and > became sensechal to the count of Mortain as was Radulf the father of > Robert of La Haye. It seems more plausible to me that Robert's father > Radulf was the brother of Eudo de Ryes, that he was sensechal of Mortain > as well as castellan of Nottingham and very probably lord of Crick. > > How they were related to Turstin Haldup and his son Eudes au Capel is a > mystery - the simplest explanation is that Hubert of Ryes, father of > Eudo and Radulf, married a sister of Eudes au Capel. > This is a bit cryptic - the problem is that charters describe Robert of La Haye as 'nepos', which could mean either grandson or nephew, of Eudo. Eudes au Capel's father Turstin Haldup was also known as Richard, and Robert of La Haye had a son named Richard. In a charter dated 1126 the relationships are muddled by a scribal error - the document reads "Robertus de Haia Ricardus et Eudonis nepos dederunt ..." . This probably should mean "Robertus de Haia Eudonis nepos et Ricardus dederunt ..." (Robert of La Haye, nephew of Eudo, and Richard gave ...), referring to Robert and his son Richard. However, Horace Round gave an unconvincing emendation and mistranslated this as "Robert de Haia, grandson of Richard and nephew of Eudo (Ricardi et Eudonis nepos) gave ...", making 'nepos' do a contorted double duty while misrepresenting the plural verb 'dederunt', so that Richard refers to Turstin Haldup. Apart from the charter dated 1105 as interpreted by some, the only source calling Eudes au Capel by the title dapifer is Orderic, who said that Turstin's daughter Emma took refuge with her brother Eudo, dapifer of the duke of Normandy ("ad Eudonem fratrem suum Normannici ducis dapiferum ... secessit"). This may have been confusion on Orderic's part between Eudes au Capel and Eudo de Ryes, whom elsewhere he called dapifer. The 1105 charter is not useful evidence that Orderic was correct, and the lack of any other document making the very long-lived Eudes au Capel into a ducal dapifer is glaring. There was a second dapifer of this name, but he died aged 26 (and his father's name was Stigand). Eudes au Capel married William the Conqueror's half-sister Muriel (apparently as his second wife, since Wace says that they had no children whereas Eudes had a son active in 1045), and if Orderic had known much about him he would most probably have mentioned that relationship. Peter Stewart