On Tuesday, May 10, 2016 at 10:08:05 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote: > It seems possible there is a royal descent for Sir Rupert Murdoch, the billionaire businessman. > > I have used Reitwiesner and Wood's tracing of his ancestry back to ancestor #116, Robert Sherson, "b. 1736/7, buried 13 Jan 1821 at Fetcham, Surrey aged 84, apothecary, doctor of medicine and botanist. Will dated 2 Feb 1819, proved with 3 codicils at London 22 Mar 1821." The next entry is for his wife, Mary ___, and mentions the location of "Bridge House, Fetcham, Surrey." > > http://www.wargs.com/other/murdoch.html > > These details given for Robert Sherson and his wife Mary tie in nicely to a big pedigree chart in Whitaker's _An History of the Original Parish of Whalley_, where a footnote to the chart shows Alexander Sherson, husband of Bridget Nowell, serving as "Town Clerk of Lancaster, died Nov. 21, 1737, leaving a numerous issue. His son Robert Sherson, M.D., late of Great Ormond Street, now (1809) of Bridge House, Surrey, has also a numerous progeny." As this statement was made in the lifetime of Robert Sherson (d. 1821) of Bridge House, Fetcham, Surrey, doctor of medicine, I see no real reason to doubt its accuracy (though please inform me if this connection is wrong). > > https://books.google.com/books?id=EO1EAQAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA264&dq=%22son+robert+sherson%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi0m7Cr-8_MAhUE2SYKHZHsD1gQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=%22son%20robert%20sherson%22&f=false > > Bridget Nowell, shown by Whitaker to be mother of Robert Sherson, M.D., was a daughter of Roger Nowell, Esq., of Whalley, by his wife, Rebecca, relict of Cuthbert Wade (possibly born Rebecca Heber, first cousin to her own 2nd husband). This seems to lead to at least one royal descent from King Edward III, and probably more (the Heber lines should be checked in particular). > > 1. Edward III, King of England = Philippa of Hainault > > 2. John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster = (3) with legitimated issue, Katherine (Roet) Swynford > > 3. Joan Beaufort = Ralph Neville, 1st Earl of Westmoreland > > 4. Richard Neville, 1st Earl of Salisbury = Alice Montagu > > 5. Eleanor Neville = Thomas Stanley, 1st Earl of Derby > > 6. Edward Stanley, Lord Monteagle = Elizabeth Harington & Anne Vaughan > > 7. (? possibly illegitimate) Elizabeth Stanley = Sir Thomas Langton > > 8. Joan Langton = John Fleetwood > > 9. Elizabeth Fleetwood = Roger Nowell > > 10. Roger Nowell = Dorothy Holt > > 11. Alexander Nowell = Eleanor Heber > > 12. Roger Nowell = Rebecca (? Heber), widow of Cuthbert Wade > > 13. Bridget Nowell = Alexander Sherson > > 14. Robert Sherson = Mary____ > > 15. Robert Sherson = Catherine Taylor > > 16. Caroline Jemima Sherson = Frederick Henry Alexander Forth > > 17. Robert de Lancey Forth = Anne Thomson Ware > > 18. Marie Grace de Lancey Forth = Rupert Greene > > 19. Elisabeth Joy Greene = Sir Keith Arthur Murdoch > > 20. Sir (Keith) Rupert Murdoch > > > The H.O.P. biography of Sir Thomas Langton of Newton confirms his marriage to a daughter, perhaps illegit., of Edward, Lord Monteagle. > > http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/langton-sir-thomas-149697-1569 > > Sir Thomas Langton had another wife who should be ruled out as the mother of Joan Langton, who married John Fleetwood. > > The _Visitation of Cumberland_ shows the marriage of Joan, daughter of Sir Thomas and Elizabeth (Stanley) Langton, to John Fleetwood. > > https://books.google.com/books?id=4nO5MJva0IYC&pg=PA32&dq=%22thomas+langton%22+newton&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi_q5mqkc7MAhUFxSYKHZSKB_wQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=%22thomas%20langton%22%20newton&f=false > > _Documents Relating to the Priory of Penwortham_ deals with the Fleetwood and Nowell connections in detail, though again we should rule out John Fleetwood's other wife, Catherine Christmas, as ancestral. > > https://books.google.com/books?id=MmJVAAAAcAAJ&pg=PR56&dq=%22married+roger+nowell+of+read%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiunvC4_c_MAhUB3yYKHWsCBHAQ6AEIMzAE#v=onepage&q=%22married%20roger%20nowell%20of%20read%22&f=false > > I imagine there are in fact several royal descents, as the wife of generation 15, Robert Sherson, Jr., appears to have been a granddaughter of Thomas Forbes, who was the son of Arthur Forbes Maitland of Pitrichie. > > https://books.google.com/books?id=uZlNAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA454&dq=sherson+nowell+fetcham&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiw6cmC-s_MAhUK7yYKHRDTDn0Q6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=sherson%20nowell%20fetcham&f=false Very interesting! You're correct that there are royal descents in the Heber family. I presently have 8 Edward III descents for Eleanor Heber (m. Alexander Nowell, and her niece Rebecca Heber (m. (2) her cousin Roger Nowell). The 4th edition (1876) of Whitaker's "Parish of Whalley" is available online at the Internet Archive. In volume 2 following page 40 there is a more detailed version of the pedigree of Nowell of Read. In addition to confirming that Rebecca, widow of Cuthbert Wade and 2nd wife of Roger Nowell was in fact a daughter of Thomas Heber of Marton, it says that their daughter Bridget married "her cousin" Alexander Sherson. Alexander is almost certainly the son of Thomas Sherson, mayor of Lancaster, and his wife Bridget Nowell (sister of Roger Nowell). This latter couple is shown in the Nowell pedigree in both editions of Whitaker's Whalley. Bridget is a daughter of Eleanor Heber and thus picks up her Edward III descents. There may be an additional generation in the Edward III descent shown above in this thread. The Nowell pedigrees in both editions of Whitaker's Whalley say that Elizabeth Fleetwood, wife of Roger Nowell (d. 1623), was the daughter, not of John Fleetwood and Joan Langton, but instead of their son Thomas Fleetwood of Colwich (or Colwick), Staffordshire. This agrees with the Fleetwood pedigree in Grazebrook's edition of the 1663/4 visitation of Staffordshire. OTOH a Fleetwood pedigree in the 3rd (Croston) edition of Baines's History of lancashire says that Elizabeth was a sister, not daughter, of Thomas. The limited chronological information in Baines/Croston, when compared to Whitaker, suggests that the Baines pedigree is actually wrong in this matter. Thomas is said to be a burgess of Preston in 1562 and 1582, while Elizabeth is said to have married in 1602 - to a man baptized in 1582. This suggests strongly that Elizabeth is a generation later than Thomas - and not his sister. I can't confirm this, but either way the Edward III descent in question is still valid. (The works mentioned above are all available via either the Internet Archive or Google Books, but I don't have URLs available as I'm working from downloaded copies.)
On Tuesday, May 10, 2016 at 12:02:10 PM UTC-7, John Higgins wrote: > On Tuesday, May 10, 2016 at 10:08:05 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote: > > It seems possible there is a royal descent for Sir Rupert Murdoch, the billionaire businessman. > > > > I have used Reitwiesner and Wood's tracing of his ancestry back to ancestor #116, Robert Sherson, "b. 1736/7, buried 13 Jan 1821 at Fetcham, Surrey aged 84, apothecary, doctor of medicine and botanist. Will dated 2 Feb 1819, proved with 3 codicils at London 22 Mar 1821." The next entry is for his wife, Mary ___, and mentions the location of "Bridge House, Fetcham, Surrey." > > > > http://www.wargs.com/other/murdoch.html > > > > These details given for Robert Sherson and his wife Mary tie in nicely to a big pedigree chart in Whitaker's _An History of the Original Parish of Whalley_, where a footnote to the chart shows Alexander Sherson, husband of Bridget Nowell, serving as "Town Clerk of Lancaster, died Nov. 21, 1737, leaving a numerous issue. His son Robert Sherson, M.D., late of Great Ormond Street, now (1809) of Bridge House, Surrey, has also a numerous progeny." As this statement was made in the lifetime of Robert Sherson (d. 1821) of Bridge House, Fetcham, Surrey, doctor of medicine, I see no real reason to doubt its accuracy (though please inform me if this connection is wrong). > > > > https://books.google.com/books?id=EO1EAQAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA264&dq=%22son+robert+sherson%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi0m7Cr-8_MAhUE2SYKHZHsD1gQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=%22son%20robert%20sherson%22&f=false > > > > Bridget Nowell, shown by Whitaker to be mother of Robert Sherson, M.D., was a daughter of Roger Nowell, Esq., of Whalley, by his wife, Rebecca, relict of Cuthbert Wade (possibly born Rebecca Heber, first cousin to her own 2nd husband). This seems to lead to at least one royal descent from King Edward III, and probably more (the Heber lines should be checked in particular). > > > > 1. Edward III, King of England = Philippa of Hainault > > > > 2. John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster = (3) with legitimated issue, Katherine (Roet) Swynford > > > > 3. Joan Beaufort = Ralph Neville, 1st Earl of Westmoreland > > > > 4. Richard Neville, 1st Earl of Salisbury = Alice Montagu > > > > 5. Eleanor Neville = Thomas Stanley, 1st Earl of Derby > > > > 6. Edward Stanley, Lord Monteagle = Elizabeth Harington & Anne Vaughan > > > > 7. (? possibly illegitimate) Elizabeth Stanley = Sir Thomas Langton > > > > 8. Joan Langton = John Fleetwood > > > > 9. Elizabeth Fleetwood = Roger Nowell > > > > 10. Roger Nowell = Dorothy Holt > > > > 11. Alexander Nowell = Eleanor Heber > > > > 12. Roger Nowell = Rebecca (? Heber), widow of Cuthbert Wade > > > > 13. Bridget Nowell = Alexander Sherson > > > > 14. Robert Sherson = Mary____ > > > > 15. Robert Sherson = Catherine Taylor > > > > 16. Caroline Jemima Sherson = Frederick Henry Alexander Forth > > > > 17. Robert de Lancey Forth = Anne Thomson Ware > > > > 18. Marie Grace de Lancey Forth = Rupert Greene > > > > 19. Elisabeth Joy Greene = Sir Keith Arthur Murdoch > > > > 20. Sir (Keith) Rupert Murdoch > > > > > > The H.O.P. biography of Sir Thomas Langton of Newton confirms his marriage to a daughter, perhaps illegit., of Edward, Lord Monteagle. > > > > http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/langton-sir-thomas-149697-1569 > > > > Sir Thomas Langton had another wife who should be ruled out as the mother of Joan Langton, who married John Fleetwood. > > > > The _Visitation of Cumberland_ shows the marriage of Joan, daughter of Sir Thomas and Elizabeth (Stanley) Langton, to John Fleetwood. > > > > https://books.google.com/books?id=4nO5MJva0IYC&pg=PA32&dq=%22thomas+langton%22+newton&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi_q5mqkc7MAhUFxSYKHZSKB_wQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=%22thomas%20langton%22%20newton&f=false > > > > _Documents Relating to the Priory of Penwortham_ deals with the Fleetwood and Nowell connections in detail, though again we should rule out John Fleetwood's other wife, Catherine Christmas, as ancestral. > > > > https://books.google.com/books?id=MmJVAAAAcAAJ&pg=PR56&dq=%22married+roger+nowell+of+read%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiunvC4_c_MAhUB3yYKHWsCBHAQ6AEIMzAE#v=onepage&q=%22married%20roger%20nowell%20of%20read%22&f=false > > > > I imagine there are in fact several royal descents, as the wife of generation 15, Robert Sherson, Jr., appears to have been a granddaughter of Thomas Forbes, who was the son of Arthur Forbes Maitland of Pitrichie. > > > > https://books.google.com/books?id=uZlNAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA454&dq=sherson+nowell+fetcham&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiw6cmC-s_MAhUK7yYKHRDTDn0Q6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=sherson%20nowell%20fetcham&f=false > > Very interesting! You're correct that there are royal descents in the Heber family. I presently have 8 Edward III descents for Eleanor Heber (m. Alexander Nowell, and her niece Rebecca Heber (m. (2) her cousin Roger Nowell). > > The 4th edition (1876) of Whitaker's "Parish of Whalley" is available online at the Internet Archive. In volume 2 following page 40 there is a more detailed version of the pedigree of Nowell of Read. In addition to confirming that Rebecca, widow of Cuthbert Wade and 2nd wife of Roger Nowell was in fact a daughter of Thomas Heber of Marton, it says that their daughter Bridget married "her cousin" Alexander Sherson. Alexander is almost certainly the son of Thomas Sherson, mayor of Lancaster, and his wife Bridget Nowell (sister of Roger Nowell). This latter couple is shown in the Nowell pedigree in both editions of Whitaker's Whalley. Bridget is a daughter of Eleanor Heber and thus picks up her Edward III descents. > > There may be an additional generation in the Edward III descent shown above in this thread. The Nowell pedigrees in both editions of Whitaker's Whalley say that Elizabeth Fleetwood, wife of Roger Nowell (d. 1623), was the daughter, not of John Fleetwood and Joan Langton, but instead of their son Thomas Fleetwood of Colwich (or Colwick), Staffordshire. This agrees with the Fleetwood pedigree in Grazebrook's edition of the 1663/4 visitation of Staffordshire. OTOH a Fleetwood pedigree in the 3rd (Croston) edition of Baines's History of lancashire says that Elizabeth was a sister, not daughter, of Thomas. The limited chronological information in Baines/Croston, when compared to Whitaker, suggests that the Baines pedigree is actually wrong in this matter. Thomas is said to be a burgess of Preston in 1562 and 1582, while Elizabeth is said to have married in 1602 - to a man baptized in 1582. This suggests strongly that Elizabeth is a generation later than Thomas - and not his sister. I can't confirm this, but either way the Edward III descent in question is still valid. > > (The works mentioned above are all available via either the Internet Archive or Google Books, but I don't have URLs available as I'm working from downloaded copies.) The Fleetwood pedigree in Grazebrook's edition of the Staffs visitation is on pp. 129-130 of that work, while the Fleetwood pedigree in Croston's edition of Baines's Lancashire is on pp. 208-209 of volume 4 of that work.