Dear Douglas, I am a bit confused by your post. Lagham in Godstone/Walkhamsted Surrey was the seat of that set of St Johns. There are other Langhams. I cannot understand the Seagrave connection. Is it through the Gyse, de Sai or other marriage? Was it a brother who married a Seagrave? Thanks Pat Sent from my iPhone > On May 30, 2016, at 8:29 PM, Douglas Richardson via <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com> wrote: > > My comments are interspersed below. DR > > On Monday, May 30, 2016 at 4:26:39 PM UTC-6, rbe...@fernside.co.nz wrote: > < Dear Mr Richardson > < > < Unfortunately you have a case of mistaken identity here and confused John de <St John of Basing (d.1302) for John de St John of Lagham (d.1316). > > It is easy to confuse two men of the same name, John de Saint John, of Basing, and John de Saint John, of Lagham. Both appear to have been in Scotland in this time period. > > < John de St John of Lagham was summoned to serve against the Scots in 1296 at < a time when John de St John of Basing was Seneschal of Gascony (1295-97), > < captured by the French at Bellegarde in 1297 and not released until 1299. The < latter’s son of the same name was serving in Flanders in 1297 and not > < summoned to serve against the Scots until 1299. > > C.P. 4 (1916): 324; 11 (1949): 324 (sub Saint John) states that Sir John de Saint John, of Basing, was captured by the French in 1296 or 1297, and that he returned to England in 1297. He is stated in more than one source to have fought at the Battle of Falkirk in Scotland in 1298. You state without source that Sir John de Saint John, of Basing, was not released by the French until 1299. That statement disagrees with every reliable source that I've checked. > > < In 1297 John de St John of Lagham wrote a letter from “Langham” to Ralph de <Manton, a senior official of the King and paymaster of the English troops, <requesting that he act on his behalf on the king’s business at a meeting in <Roxburgh in the Scottish Borders because he was ill. In the letter he referred <to John de Segrave as his cousin, “monsieur Johan de Segrave notre cosin”. > > The letter by Sir John de Saint John was written in August 1298 (not 1297 as you say), from a place called Langham. For a full transcript of this letter, see Stevenson, Documents illustrative of the History of Scotland, 2 (1870): 305–306. Gough, Scotland in 1298 (1888): xliii also dates the letter as being in 1298 and further identifies Langham as being Langholm in Dumfriesshire, Scotland, NOT Lageham, Surrey. This same date (1298) and the same identification of this locality is also provided in a well researched biography of Sir John de Saint John, of Basing, in Howard de Walden, Some Feudal Lords & Their Seals (1903): 52–53 (biog. of John de St. John). > > Just why you would change the date of the letter (1298) and the locality from Scotland to England is beyond me. Maybe you can explain your motives? > > < John de St John of Lagham was second cousin of John de Segrave by common <descent from the Despenser family. They also shared a common descent from <Richard de Lucy, the justiciar. > > Yes, it is true that the other Sir John de Saint John, of Lageham, probably had a Despenser mother [Complete Peerage suggests this possibility]. If so, this would make him near kin to Sir John de Segrave, as you state. However, as I set out the evidence in my earlier post, I showed that Sir John de Saint John, of Basing, would also be related to Sir John de Segrave, by their common descent from the Cantelowe family. This cross-cross of kinships between baronial families is quite common in this time period. > > As far as which John de Saint John wrote the 1298 letter, both Gough, pg. 326, and Walden appear to think that it was Sir John de Saint John, of Basing. They could be wrong, but I doubt it. > > Is there any other evidence to tell us the identity of the author of the 1298 letter? > > Yes, I believe there is. In the 1298 letter, John de Saint John names not one, but two kinsmen, namely Sir John de Segrave and Sir Richard Siward, of Tibbers in Dumfriesshire, Scotland. There is a full biography of Sir Richard Siward published in Rogers, Book of Wallace 2 (1889): 320-323. Wallace says the following: > > Sir Richard Siward was "son or grandson of Richard Siward, of the reign of Henry, possessed lands in Hampshire, at Northamptonshire, and in Tyndedale. He also held lands in the south of Scotland." END OF QUOTE. > > Inasmuch as Sir Richard Siward's family held lands in Hampshire, this fact would tend to point that he was near related to Sir John de Saint John, of Basing, Hampshire, rather than Sir John de Saint John, of Lageham, Surrey. > > On the basis of the information cited above, I would identify the author of the 1298 letter as Sir John de Saint John, of Basing. His near kinship to Sir John de Segrave by the way of their common Cantelowe ancestry is near certain. > > In any event, the letter by John de Saint John was not written in 1297 in Surrey as you claim, but in Scotland in 1298. > >> Cheers >> Rosie > > Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message