Hi Peter, Many thanks for your extensive insight and analysis. I am unfamiliar, to a large extent, with the individuals referenced in your last few posts. When convenient, I would appreciate it if you would please advise me of the following: 1. Does the publication 'Les seigneurs de Ryes en Bessin: études historiques', by Romain-Auguste-Laurent Pezet, establish or propose the wife (wives), parentage and/or further ancestry of Hubert de Rie? I am embarrassed to admit my unilingualism renders me unable to meaningfully review the article for which you kindly provided the link; 2. Is it the abovementioned Pezet article that references Eudo du Capel being conflated with Eudo Dapifer? I assume it is in Note 2 on p. 130; 3. What relationships can be established (unlikely) or reasonably conjectured based on the Eudes au Capel v. Eudo de Rie discussion?; and 4. For further discussion regarding Orderic Vitalis' identification of Eudo au Capel v. Eudo de Rie, please see p. 124, Note 2 (which continues on p. 125) of 'The Ecclesiastical History of Orderic Vitalis, Volume II: Books III and IV', edited by Marjorie Chibnall - https://books.google.ca/books?id=s6Vlc8FJEksC&pg=PA124&dq=%22THURSTAN+HALDUP%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwibh5Lf_83MAhUozIMKHaC4CasQ6AEIJzAC#v=onepage&q=%22THURSTAN%20HALDUP%22&f=false. Again, I am not familiar enough with this material to provide any useful comment thereon. Cheers, Pete

On 10/05/2016 8:29 AM, Peter G. M. Dale via wrote: > Hi Peter, > > Many thanks for your extensive insight and analysis. I am unfamiliar, to a large extent, with the individuals referenced in your last few posts. When convenient, I would appreciate it if you would please advise me of the following: > > 1. Does the publication 'Les seigneurs de Ryes en Bessin: études historiques', by Romain-Auguste-Laurent Pezet, establish or propose the wife (wives), parentage and/or further ancestry of Hubert de Rie? I am embarrassed to admit my unilingualism renders me unable to meaningfully review the article for which you kindly provided the link; According to Pezet the first recorded possessor of Ryes was named Geoffrey, succeeded by his son Eudes who gave a moiety to Fécamp abbey in 1026 - the latter's heir was most probably Hubert, perhaps his son. On a quick look I didn't spot any information about Hubert's marriage/s. He and his three eldest sons saved the life of the young duke William at the time of the revolt by Guy of Brionne and others a few months before the battle of Val-ès-Dunes in 1047 (Pezet thought that Eudo was the eldest of these three, but unless he lived to around 90 he could not have been one of them since he died in February 1120). > > 2. Is it the abovementioned Pezet article that references Eudo du Capel being conflated with Eudo Dapifer? I assume it is in Note 2 on p. 130; Yes, and on p. 138 in note 4 Pezet identified Eudo of Ryes as the dapifer/uncle of Robert de la Haye. > > 3. What relationships can be established (unlikely) or reasonably conjectured based on the Eudes au Capel v. Eudo de Rie discussion?; and As I said before, the relationship is mysterious - Eudo of Ryes was one of the (many) witnesses to a royal confirmation in 1080 of gifts made by Eudes au Capel and his father Turstin Haldup to the abbey they had founded at Lessay in 1056, and by 1105 Robert of La Haye (son of Radulf, the count of Mortain's seneschal) had inherited the founders' rights there. Eudes au Capel had a son Radulf who was in southern Italy by 1045 and does not appear again; by his (evidently second) wife Muriel (of Conteville) Eudes reportedly had no children, or at least none that Wace heard of in the 12th century. The simplest conjecture seems to me that Eudes au Capel had a sister who married Hubert of Ryes and was mother of their (perhaps eldest) son Radulf, castellan of Nottingham, probably father of Robert of La Haye, but there can be no certainty on the available evidence. > > 4. For further discussion regarding Orderic Vitalis' identification of Eudo au Capel v. Eudo de Rie, please see p. 124, Note 2 (which continues on p. 125) of 'The Ecclesiastical History of Orderic Vitalis, Volume II: Books III and IV', edited by Marjorie Chibnall - > > https://books.google.ca/books?id=s6Vlc8FJEksC&pg=PA124&dq=%22THURSTAN+HALDUP%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwibh5Lf_83MAhUozIMKHaC4CasQ6AEIJzAC#v=onepage&q=%22THURSTAN%20HALDUP%22&f=false. > > Again, I am not familiar enough with this material to provide any useful comment thereon. > > Chibnall went on to reference the 1105 charter as supporting Orderic's identification of Eudes au Capel as the dapifer/uncle of Robert, and thought that since Orderic knew well the monk Benedict, a nephew of Eudes, he 'is likely to be right'. However, this is messy reasoning. Eudes au Capel was one of the most prominent magnates in the Cotentin, a brother-in-law of William the Conqueror, and lived until 1089 when he must have been around 90, yet he does not occur as dapifer in any of William's charters. Orderic referred numerous times to Eudo the dapifer, meaning Eudo of Ryes who does occur in this capacity independently. Orderic was not always careful and reliable about people who fell outside his immediate interest, including those with whom he was within a few degrees of separation, and a passing mention by him along with the contentious interpretation of one charter are not sufficient evidence for Chibnall's conclusion. Peter Stewart

On 10/05/2016 9:53 AM, Peter Stewart via wrote: > > Chibnall went on to reference the 1105 charter as supporting Orderic's > identification of Eudes au Capel as the dapifer/uncle of Robert This is sloppy on my part - Orderic made Eudes au Capel a dapifer but did not mention Robert of La Haye, whose connection comes in the 1105 charter cited by Chibnall to support the statement of Orderic. Peter Stewart