On Saturday, 25 June 2016 00:25:38 UTC+1, sabaris...@gmail.com wrote: > My first attempt to post a question on the various Rochfords and their relationship to Joan Hillary seems to have got lost in the ether. So here's another go. > > > In a post to SGM in 2007, Douglas Richardson wrote: “Roskell's modern biography of Sir John Rochford in House of Commons 1386-1421, volume 4 maintains that Sir John's mother was NOT Joan Hillary, daughter of Sir Roger Hillary, Chief Justice of the Common Pleas. My research, however, has conclusively proven this Sir John Rochford was in fact co-heir in 1400 to his uncle, Roger Hillary, Knt., by which he inherited the manors of Shelfield (in Walsall), Staffordshire and Stretton-on-Fosse, Warwickshire. These properties subsequently passed onto his heirs. This gaffe on Roskell's part is yet another reason why it is important to fact check all secondary works and online databases, including the two books published by yours truly.” > > The biography of Sir John Rochford of Fenn of Boston, Lincs (d. 1410) [1] The History of Parliament: the House of Commons 1386-1421, ed. J.S. Roskell, L. Clark, C. Rawcliffe., 1993, identifies Sir John only as the son of Sir Saier Rochford of Boston. The statement that he was not the son of Joan Hillary is found in a footnote, reading: “Lincs. Peds. ed. Maddison, 829, is mistaken in stating that Rochford's mother was Joan, da. and coh. of Sir Hillary, for although she did have a son named John Rochford he cannot have been our MP. The latter was succeeded by Sir Ralph Rochford of Fenn in Boston (d.1439/40) not by two young female descendants as was the case with Joan Hillary's son: CFR, xiv. 423; Fifty Earliest Eng. Wills (EETS, lxxviii), 120-8. During the lifetime of his uncle, Sir John Rochford the elder (d.c.1392), contemporaries usually referred to this MP as 'the younger' or 'son of Sir Saier' in order to avoid confusion. The problem of identification is, however, further complicated by the evidence of yet another namesake known as John Rochford of Boston. He and the subject of this biography were together parties to the endowment of Barling abbey in 1390 (C143/409/19; CPR, 1388-92, pp. 192-3), and were evidently related. John Rochford of Boston was himself a figure of some consequence. An adherent of the Lords Appellant of 1388, he served as a j.p. in Lindsey from 1387 to 1390, and, along with other members of the prolific Rochford clan, he took the oath in 1388 to support the Appellants' rule. He served on occasional royal commissions, and in 1398 was twice pardoned for his attachment to King Richard's enemies (C66/319 m. 16v; C67/30 mm. 18, 34; PR, iii. 400; CPR, 1385-9, p. 257; 1391-6, p. 430). Yet despite his connexion with leading figures in Boston (CP25(1)143/147/19, 144/148/39; JUST 1/1496 rot. 3v), we know that it was not he, but the subject of this biography who played a prominent part in the affairs of the Corpus Christi guild there.” > > So what do we know of Joan Hillary’s son, whose heirs were two women? Some details are to be found in the IPMs of the heirs of Sir Roger Hillary [2] and of one Alice Dorlaston [3], both given below. It is apparent from these that Sir Roger Hillary (-13 Jun 1400) was the brother of Elizabeth and Joan, whose descendants were his heirs. His sister Joan, according to Sir Roger’s IPM, married a Rochford and had a son Saer, referred to as “knight, junior,” whose son John was aged 40 and more in 1403. Not only, therefore, do we have two John Rochfords – if Sir Roger Hillary’s IPM and the HoP biography of John the MP are to be believed, both were sons of a Saer Rochford, presumably of different generations. Furthermore, if I understand these various details correctly, the John Rochford who was the father of Margery, wife of Frederick Tilney, was the son of Joan Hillary and her Rochford husband. Would he be the other John mentioned in the HoP footnote? > > If John Rochford MP was not a son of Joan Hillary, neither can he be the John Rochford, son of Saer, son of Joan Hillary, as stated in Roger Hillary’s IPM. But Alice Dorlaston’s IPM states that Joan had a son John, described as father of Elizabeth (m. 1st Russell and 2nd Clinton), Margery (m. Tilney) and Joan (m. Roos). > > And who were the two Saer Rochfords? Joan Hillary’s son of that name is referred to in her brother’s IPM as Saer junior. So who was Saer senior? > > I am so confused by all these Johns and Saers that I have probably missed, or misinterpreted, something that will be obvious to more experienced genealogists. I should be most grateful for comments and clarification. > > Regards > Saba Risaluddin > > > CIPM. Vol 18, 772. Roger Hillary, knight. > Writ 4 May 1403. > LEICESTER. Inquisition. Leicester 17 Sept > Jointly with Margaret his wife, who survives him, he held 6 messuages, 2 carucates and 32 a. meadow in Snarestone and 15 a. meadow in Barrow on Soar by the grant of Hugh parson of Stretton on Fosse and William de Strethay to them and the heirs of the body of Roger, with remainder failing such heirs to John, son of Saer de Rochefort, knight, junior, and his heirs male. Snarestone is held of the heirs of John Charnels by the rent of a rose, annual value 40s.; Barrow on Soar of Thomas de Erdyngton, also by rent of a rose, annual value 18s. He died without heirs of his body on 13 June 1400, and Margaret has taken the profits since his death. John son of Saer, son of Joan, sister of Roger, and Elizabeth wife of John Russell, knight, daughter of Elizabeth, the other sister of Roger, are next heirs, John aged 40 years and more and Elizabeth 50 years and more. > > CIPM vol 795. Alice daughter and heir of Thomas son of Roger Dorlaston. > Writ, devenerunt, 16 Dec. 1421. > Stafford. Inquisition. Lichfield. 7 Jan. 1422. > By reason of the death of Roger Dorlaston and the minority of Alice daughter of Thomas son of Roger the manor of Darlaston, the advowson of the church of the manor and 12 a. arable in Bentley came into the king’s hand where 2/3 remain, 1/3 being held in dower by Idony widow of Roger Dorlaston. Roger Dorlaston father of Roger was formerly seised of the manor, advowson and 12 a. in his demesne as of fee and granted them to William Benteley, Roger Basset, chaplain, John Marnham and Roger Elyngton, chaplain, who granted them to Roger Dorlaston the father and his wife Anne, deceased, and the heirs of their bodies, remainder to Roger Hillary, knight. . .The heirs of Roger Hillary were the descendants of his daughters Elizabeth and Joan: i.e. Elizabeth, Lady Clinton, aged 60 years, daughter of Elizabeth; Margery, aged 30 years, widow of Fratricus Tylney and one of the three daughters and heirs of John Rocheford, knight, son of Joan; Elizabeth Gibthorp, aged 1 year, daughter of John son of Alice, John Rocheford’s second daughter; and Margaret Roos, aged 5 years, daughter of Joan, John Rocheford’s third daughter.” > > > [1] The History of Parliament: the House of Commons 1386-1421, ed. J.S. Roskell, L. Clark, C. Rawcliffe., 1993 > [2] J. L. Kirby, 'Inquisitions Post Mortem, Henry IV, Entries 741-803', in Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Volume 18, Henry IV (London, 1987), pp. 244-268. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol18/pp244-268 [accessed 24 June 2016]. > [3] J. L. Kirby, Janet H. Stevenson, Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem. . . 6-10 Henry V, 1418-1422, Boydell & Brewer (2002), 271 Dear Saba, Leaving aside any discussion about whether this Sir John Rochford was the MP for Boston, or not, the genealogical facts are relatively straightforward, as far as I can see: Sir Saier de Rochford II (i.e. Saier de Rochford, the younger) son of Ralph de Rochford and his wife Joan, was born about 1330 and died after 1370. He married, before June 1353, Joan Hilary, daughter of Sir Roger Hilary I (died 1 June 1356) and his wife Katherine (died 20 June 1356). Sir John de Rochford, eldest son of Saier de Rochford II and Joan Hilary was born about 1356 and died on 13 December 1410. He married Alice [Hastings?]. They had three daughters:- - Margaret (or Margery), (died after 1434) wife of Frederick Tilney (died before 1412) - Alice, (died before 1422) wife of William Gibthorpe (died before 1422) - Joan, (died before 1422) first wife of Sir Robert Roos of Gedney (died 30 Sep 1441). Regards, John