Why is Robert the Bursar, "man of Roger de Bully" who holds of him at Notts. seen as the same man in the Online Domesday as Robert Dispensator, brother of Urso The Sheriff of Domesday. Well let me start by stating I have certainly made more than my share blunders and mistakes in following leads that were not fully validated in my early research notes. I have hopefully improved my posts in the last few months having learned from my mistakes. Perhaps someone can explain to me why the online Domesday has combined Robert the Bursar and Robert Dispenser, brother of Urse as one. Wikipedia says the Robert the Bursar was High Sheriff of Worschester in 1086, just for one year which happens to be the same year as the Domesday record, next it says Urso d'Abetot held the High Sheriff's office form 1069-1108, which also includes the year 1086, so why does a Robert the Bursar hold it for 1 year, when its covered by Urso. Wikipedia uses only one source for this entry for Robert the Bursar and takes us back to the online Domesday which I feel is in error in the first place. Further to this, the online Domesday says the following "Robert the Bursar" - Brother of Urso d'Abetot, who was Sheriff of Worcestershire; castle at Tamworth, Staffs. Holdings in Glos., Leics., Lincs., Warwicks." http://www.domesdaybook.co.uk/landownersp-r.html What makes them so sure that " Robert the Bursar", who I see as "man of Roger de Bully", who witnessed the founding of the Blythe priory. On what evidence or authority do they make them the same person. Katherine Keats-Rohan in Domesday People, makes no such suggestion linking either of the two Robert Dispenser's to a "Robert the Bursar", but she clearly suggests that there were two distinct Robert Dispensators in the DD record describing them as follows: 1. Robert Dispensator alias Robert de Abitot, brother of Urso d'Abbetot 2. Robert Despencer who attested Roger de Bully's foundation charter for Blythe priory was clearly not his famous contemporary of the Abitot family, so was probably Roger's own despenser , and the perhaps the Domesday tenant of the name in Notts. In 1166 Robert de Jort II, held a fee of the honour of Blythe, but the Domesday holdings of Robert I de Jort were in Liescester. In "The Story of England" By Michael Wood, they focus on Kibworth, where they say in Smeeton next to Kibworth is held by Robert 'Dispensator' (The Bursar). In Kibworth Beuachamp. a Robert Hostarius holds land. "Hostiruas=Usher" So this possibly Robert the Usher, which could be Robert de Jort as he was Usher Regis by a serjeanty in 1086, holding Hoton, Liesc. But we should consider there may have been more than one usher, these positions sometimes were shared. For futher evidence of the confusion of the online Domesady, when I search for Shackerstone, Leicestershire it returns the appropriate link, this site supposedly takes the names as seen in the original Domesday folio, it says this place is held by "Robert the Bursar" ,but when we look at the enlarges original folio we find the "Robertus Dispensator" holds Sacrestone. No where does the original folio say "Robert the Bursar". Is this an indication of further evidence that there are two Robert Dispenser's in Domesday as noted by Dr. Keats-Rohan and the Domesday editors may have seen confusion it may cause and described him as "Robert the Bursar" instead of Robert Despenser. From: Place name: Shackerstone, Leicestershire Folio: 234v Great Domesday Book Reference: E 31/2/2/1299 Description: Place name: Shackerstone, Leicestershire Folio: 234v Great Domesday Book Domesday place name: Sacrestone People mentioned within entire folio: Aethelmaer; Alnoth; Ansfrid; Edwin Alfrith; Gerard; Henry de Ferrers; Ingald; Morcar; Ralph Pippin; Richard; Robert Despenser; Robert de Bucy; Roger; Roger de Bully; Saeric; Sokeman of King William; Warin; Wife of Robert Burdet Given this confusion, surely Dr. Keats-Rohan has not seen "Robert the Bursar", man of Roger holding Fawborough, Notts. of Roger de Bully and Weston, Notts. and is shown as a Robert Dispensator. >From the latest edition of Notinghamshire NOTES (version 1a) The County Notes provide a discussion on all matters of interest or obscurity in the text, in the light of the latest Domesday scholarship. Such matters vary from county to county but recurrent topics include: the identification of place-names, personal names, and individuals; the meaning of obscure Latin words or phrases, or of ambiguous formulae; uncommon data; curious statistics; relevant material from related sources; variants in other editions; the state of the manuscript, including the work of individual scribes, insertions, amendments, and scribal conventions; misreadings in Domesday facsimiles; material bearing on larger Domesday topics, such as the Domesday Inquest and the date and compilation of Domesday Book; and all other items of interest. The Notes are based on the original printed edition published by Phillimore (1977) and edited by John Morris. They have been fully revised and greatly enlarged for this edition by Caroline and Frank Thorn. The link to the full text is below: http://hydra.hull.ac.uk/assets/hull:549/content >From these notes we find the following entry.. ROBERT [* THE BURSAR *], ROGER'S MAN. He is possibly to be identified with Robert the bursar (dispensator) who witnessed Roger of Bully's charter founding his priory of Blyth; see the Blyth Priory Cartulary (Timson, no. 325 pp. 207-209); and 9,49 Blyth note. The key to the puzzle would seem in the identification of the 2nd Robert Dispenser who Dr. Keats- Rohan contemplates having a connection to a Robert de Jort I, being this Robert Dispenser, but she was unable to clearly see this person having any land in Notts., where the 2nd Robert Disapenser that she names was a tenant of Roger de Bully, connected to the Honour of Blythe. But this would only solve half the issue for Keats-Rohan. So if the 2nd Robert Dispenser that Keats-Rohan mentions is possibly " Robert the Bursar." The question still remains may be : Is Robert de Jort the same Robert the Bursar? It is difficult to say, but I see a possible relation of Robert of Jort to two other tenants of Roger de Bully in Notts., who also witnessed the Foundation charter of Blythe Priory, however that is another Research note still in progress. Dugdale says Robert de Jort held Hoton, for being an Usher to King William and held part of Wymeswold with his manor at Prestwold, along side of Roger de Bully and Hugh de Grandnesmil who also hold there. Any clarification or comments are welcome. Thank you Robert Spencer

On Friday, July 15, 2016 at 12:22:04 PM UTC-7, robert.the...@gmail.com wrote: > Why is Robert the Bursar, "man of Roger de Bully" who holds of him at Notts. > seen as the same man in the Online Domesday as Robert Dispensator, brother > of Urso The Sheriff of Domesday. [snip] > Perhaps someone can explain to me why the online Domesday has combined > Robert the Bursar and Robert Dispenser, brother of Urse as one. [snip] > http://www.domesdaybook.co.uk/landownersp-r.html Simple whim of the compiler? Found it in an online genealogy? Don't mistake that site for a scholarly compilation. taf

On Friday, 15 July 2016 20:22:04 UTC+1, robert.the...@gmail.com wrote: > Why is Robert the Bursar, "man of Roger de Bully" who holds of him at Notts. seen as the same man in the Online Domesday as Robert Dispensator, brother of Urso The Sheriff of Domesday. > > Well let me start by stating I have certainly made more than my share blunders and mistakes in following leads that were not fully validated in my early research notes. I have hopefully improved my posts in the last few months having learned from my mistakes. > > Perhaps someone can explain to me why the online Domesday has combined Robert the Bursar and Robert Dispenser, brother of Urse as one. > Wikipedia says the Robert the Bursar was High Sheriff of Worschester in 1086, just for one year which happens to be the same year as the Domesday record, next it says Urso d'Abetot held the High Sheriff's office form 1069-1108, which also includes the year 1086, so why does a Robert the Bursar hold it for 1 year, when its covered by Urso. > > Wikipedia uses only one source for this entry for Robert the Bursar and takes us back to the online Domesday which I feel is in error in the first place. > Further to this, the online Domesday says the following "Robert the Bursar" - Brother of Urso d'Abetot, who was Sheriff of Worcestershire; castle at Tamworth, Staffs. Holdings in Glos., Leics., Lincs., Warwicks." > > http://www.domesdaybook.co.uk/landownersp-r.html > > What makes them so sure that " Robert the Bursar", who I see as "man of Roger de Bully", who witnessed the founding of the Blythe priory. On what evidence or authority do they make them the same person. > > Katherine Keats-Rohan in Domesday People, makes no such suggestion linking either of the two Robert Dispenser's to a "Robert the Bursar", but she clearly suggests that there were two distinct Robert Dispensators in the DD record describing them as follows: > > 1. Robert Dispensator alias Robert de Abitot, brother of Urso d'Abbetot > > 2. Robert Despencer who attested Roger de Bully's foundation charter for Blythe priory was clearly not his famous contemporary of the Abitot family, so was probably Roger's own despenser , and the perhaps the Domesday tenant of the name in Notts. In 1166 Robert de Jort II, held a fee of the honour of Blythe, but the Domesday holdings of Robert I de Jort were in Liescester. > > In "The Story of England" By Michael Wood, they focus on Kibworth, where they say in Smeeton next to Kibworth is held by Robert 'Dispensator' (The Bursar). In Kibworth Beuachamp. a Robert Hostarius holds land. "Hostiruas=Usher" So this possibly Robert the Usher, which could be Robert de Jort as he was Usher Regis by a serjeanty in 1086, holding Hoton, Liesc. But we should consider there may have been more than one usher, these positions sometimes were shared. > > For futher evidence of the confusion of the online Domesady, when I search for Shackerstone, Leicestershire it returns the appropriate link, this site supposedly takes the names as seen in the original Domesday folio, it says this place is held by "Robert the Bursar" ,but when we look at the enlarges original folio we find the "Robertus Dispensator" holds Sacrestone. No where does the original folio say "Robert the Bursar". > Is this an indication of further evidence that there are two Robert Dispenser's in Domesday as noted by Dr. Keats-Rohan and the Domesday editors may have seen confusion it may cause and described him as "Robert the Bursar" instead of Robert Despenser. > > From: Place name: Shackerstone, Leicestershire Folio: 234v Great Domesday Book > Reference: E 31/2/2/1299 > Description: Place name: Shackerstone, Leicestershire > Folio: 234v Great Domesday Book > Domesday place name: Sacrestone > People mentioned within entire folio: Aethelmaer; Alnoth; Ansfrid; Edwin Alfrith; Gerard; Henry de Ferrers; Ingald; Morcar; Ralph Pippin; Richard; Robert Despenser; Robert de Bucy; Roger; Roger de Bully; Saeric; Sokeman of King William; Warin; Wife of Robert Burdet Given this confusion, surely Dr. Keats-Rohan has not seen "Robert the Bursar", man of Roger holding Fawborough, Notts. of Roger de Bully and Weston, Notts. and is shown as a Robert Dispensator. > > From the latest edition of Notinghamshire NOTES (version 1a) > > The County Notes provide a discussion on all matters of interest or obscurity in the text, in the light of the latest Domesday scholarship. Such matters vary from county to county but recurrent topics include: the identification of place-names, personal names, and individuals; the meaning of obscure Latin words or phrases, or of ambiguous formulae; uncommon data; curious statistics; relevant material from related sources; variants in other editions; the state of the manuscript, including the work of individual scribes, insertions, amendments, and scribal conventions; misreadings in Domesday facsimiles; material bearing on larger Domesday topics, such as the Domesday Inquest and the date and compilation of Domesday Book; and all other items of interest. > > > The Notes are based on the original printed edition published by Phillimore (1977) and edited by John Morris. They have been fully revised and greatly enlarged for this edition by Caroline and Frank Thorn. > > The link to the full text is below: > > http://hydra.hull.ac.uk/assets/hull:549/content > > From these notes we find the following entry.. > > ROBERT [* THE BURSAR *], ROGER'S MAN. He is possibly to be identified with Robert the bursar (dispensator) who witnessed Roger of Bully's charter founding his priory of Blyth; see the Blyth Priory Cartulary (Timson, no. 325 pp. 207-209); and 9,49 Blyth note. > > The key to the puzzle would seem in the identification of the 2nd Robert Dispenser who Dr. Keats- Rohan contemplates having a connection to a Robert de Jort I, being this Robert Dispenser, but she was unable to clearly see this person having any land in Notts., where the 2nd Robert Disapenser that she names was a tenant of Roger de Bully, connected to the Honour of Blythe. > > But this would only solve half the issue for Keats-Rohan. > > So if the 2nd Robert Dispenser that Keats-Rohan mentions is possibly " Robert the Bursar." The question still remains may be : Is Robert de Jort the same Robert the Bursar? > > It is difficult to say, but I see a possible relation of Robert of Jort to two other tenants of Roger de Bully in Notts., who also witnessed the Foundation charter of Blythe Priory, however that is another Research note still in progress. > > Dugdale says Robert de Jort held Hoton, for being an Usher to King William and held part of Wymeswold with his manor at Prestwold, along side of Roger de Bully and Hugh de Grandnesmil who also hold there. > > Any clarification or comments are welcome. > > Thank you > > Robert Spencer Dear Robert, There were (at least) two tenants or sub-tenants at the time of Domesday called Robert "dispensarius." The Latin word dispensarius, a job descrription, not a family name, can be translated into English as dispenser or bursar, take your pick. Robert Dispenser, who Round suggests was the brother of Urse d'Abitot, was named from his office in the royal household. He died about 1097, and some, at least, of his estates in Lincolnshire, were acquired by Urse d'Abitot, but were subsequently divided between the Beauchamp and Marmion families, suggesting that Robert was survived by a daughter, married to Robert Marmion. Regards, John