On Sunday, July 17, 2016 at 7:13:16 AM UTC-7, tempu...@gmail.com wrote: > I know that it's been a long time since this post was started, but I wanted > to clarify some facts. According to historians and scholars, Angelina and > her sister* Maria did exist. We have different documented sources ("many" > taking into account the times) in which she is depicted as a real character, > from Argote de Molina's investigation to Seville's municipal accounts (where > they disembarked and were included in the register of the city, even > recording what they had eaten for meals) to documents such as those found in > King Felipe IV's counsil and a letter to Francisco Imperial's poems > referring to Angelina, and others found in the Cancionero de Baena, to > recent studies by reputable experts like Malkiel or Nepaulsingh. So in this > case we find many texts that attest to the veracity of the facts. I would be hesitant to take these accounts at face value. Argote de Molina was writing 200 years after the fact, and I doubt the municipal records specified the genealogy of the women being fed. There is a historical trope that tends to elevate the status of foreign strangers, such that a noblewoman becomes a princess. Likewise a simple story tends to be built upon and elaborated, connecting the people to the most famous individuals in the region from which they derived. I don't think the existence of these women need be doubted, but I remain skeptical of their supposed biographies and genealogies. > Thus, Angelina had a very important influence in medieval Spanish literature > and even in the XIX century she was mentioned in novels such as Larra's El > doncel de don Enrique el Doliente. King Arthur had a significant influence on later literature, and he never existed, at least as described. > Sadly, it is difficult to know more about her identity, since she could be > part of the royal family of either Hungary, Wallachia, Galicia (in Eastern > Europe, not Spain) or any other kingdom of the period. Or she could have been of a lesser status. taf

El diumenge, 17 juliol de 2016 21:12:53 UTC+2, taf va escriure: > On Sunday, July 17, 2016 at 7:13:16 AM UTC-7, tempu...@gmail.com wrote: > > > I know that it's been a long time since this post was started, but I wanted > > to clarify some facts. According to historians and scholars, Angelina and > > her sister* Maria did exist. We have different documented sources ("many" > > taking into account the times) in which she is depicted as a real character, > > from Argote de Molina's investigation to Seville's municipal accounts (where > > they disembarked and were included in the register of the city, even > > recording what they had eaten for meals) to documents such as those found in > > King Felipe IV's counsil and a letter to Francisco Imperial's poems > > referring to Angelina, and others found in the Cancionero de Baena, to > > recent studies by reputable experts like Malkiel or Nepaulsingh. So in this > > case we find many texts that attest to the veracity of the facts. > > I would be hesitant to take these accounts at face value. Argote de Molina was writing 200 years after the fact, and I doubt the municipal records specified the genealogy of the women being fed. There is a historical trope that tends to elevate the status of foreign strangers, such that a noblewoman becomes a princess. Likewise a simple story tends to be built upon and elaborated, connecting the people to the most famous individuals in the region from which they derived. I don't think the existence of these women need be doubted, but I remain skeptical of their supposed biographies and genealogies. > > > Thus, Angelina had a very important influence in medieval Spanish literature > > and even in the XIX century she was mentioned in novels such as Larra's El > > doncel de don Enrique el Doliente. > > King Arthur had a significant influence on later literature, and he never existed, at least as described. > > > Sadly, it is difficult to know more about her identity, since she could be > > part of the royal family of either Hungary, Wallachia, Galicia (in Eastern > > Europe, not Spain) or any other kingdom of the period. > > Or she could have been of a lesser status. > > taf Thanks for your answer, taf. I just wanted to clarify that this figure really existed (being Angelina a princess, a noblewoman, or belonging to any other social class), according to texts of her times. Yes, Molina is not contemporary of hers, since he published his text in 1782, you are right. However, the letter written by a "Greek prince" dates of her times (this letter is now in El Escorial). Was he a prince? We will never know. It is true that they arrived to the king of Spain and that she was registered in Seville. The document of her arrival does contain the dishes they ate, highlighting above all the "horseradish thistles", which she loved. (This document was published in an edition for the public by Mercedes Gaibrois de Ballesteros in 1940 with information on the embassy). And in the same city Imperial wrote the poems about her. As you said, the existence of these women does not need to be doubted. All the same, the only thing we can know about them is that these women were captured by Timur from Bayezid I and that Angelina married Diego González de Contreras, the governing of Segovia. Their offspring have Hungarian, Greek and Spanish names until today. Did Bayezid take these women in the battle of Nikopolis? In a siege of a city or a village? Were they princesses? Were they nobles? Undoubtedly, it is rather impossible to know their origins. PS: Some posts above it is said that Angelina was the daughter of Count John (Ivan) of Hungary. Her tomb just states that her father was a Count named John (Ivan), not that he was from Hungary, and that she was the granddaughter of the king of Hungary. Maybe this refers to a governor or another charge even in another region such as Galicia (region which coincides with the coat of arms of her tomb)? Again, we cannot know.

On Sunday, July 17, 2016 at 1:23:33 PM UTC-7, tempu...@gmail.com wrote: > PS: Some posts above it is said that Angelina was the daughter of Count John > (Ivan) of Hungary. Her tomb just states that her father was a Count named John > (Ivan), not that he was from Hungary, and that she was the granddaughter of > the king of Hungary. Is the tomb contemporary, or was it installed later on, after the legend may have begun to develop? taf